Alternate Japan play

No Flag AOE3_Novice
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Alternate Japan play

Post by AOE3_Novice »

I know the card has been heavingly kami but I would argue in many cases it does more damage than good to simply start with that card when early game will consist of you getting outnumbered.

300 wood

2 vill

3 fishing ships

I know a wall is mandatory to get up so your vill are not idled but if you're not going to start with a shrine boom then wouldn't something else be much better?
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Re: Alternate Japan play

Post by gibson »

300w for a club rush, vils or boats if you're being rushed, and kami otherwise
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Re: Alternate Japan play

Post by momuuu »

I kinda like not doing kami tbh, when doing kami I struggle too much to get out on the map and actually defend my shrines. But thats also because Im not too good at japan.
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Re: Alternate Japan play

Post by fei123456 »

if you start with 3 wood crates, kami is great. but if it's 2, will other bo be better?
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Re: Alternate Japan play

Post by Darwin_ »

I used to do a 300w torii gates build. I would start with 1 or 2 shrines depending on the start, and build another 2 or 3 with the 300w. I then aged with the torii gates, putting 5 vills on the wonder. In transition, I chopped enough wood to get 125 if I had a 300w start, as well as food and coin for ashi production. I would then go 5 ashi 5 ashi 600w. Placed the rax wagon forward, pushing in with 10 ashi and the samurai. There is a video on MCJim's channel of me doing it poorly, and against french, which is about the worst civ to do this against.
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Re: Alternate Japan play

Post by forgrin »

A long history of pro Japan play has proven that Kami is really their only hope in competitive play, IMO. Without it you risk getting outscaled in eco, which is death to Japan because their entire game plan relies on that. The only way you win without it is versus a civ that couldn't outboom you even without Kami, which is a very short list.
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Re: Alternate Japan play

Post by gibson »

forgrin wrote:A long history of pro Japan play has proven that Kami is really their only hope in competitive play, IMO. Without it you risk getting outscaled in eco, which is death to Japan because their entire game plan relies on that. The only way you win without it is versus a civ that couldn't outboom you even without Kami, which is a very short list.
this is literally only true in a Japan mirror. It's okay to go non kami in literally every single other matchup. While I'd still send it vs every civ that im not planning to rush, or think in going to be rushed, it's really not that great of a card. It's sort of like Virginia company Tbh and its really only standard to send it cause jap has no 3 vil shipment. You're not gonna get out scaled in eco cause you have 130 shrine pop and not 200. And realistically in most matchups you can't expect to have more than like 10-12ish shrines on hunts anyway.
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Re: Alternate Japan play

Post by AOE3_Novice »

Darwin_ wrote:I used to do a 300w torii gates build. I would start with 1 or 2 shrines depending on the start, and build another 2 or 3 with the 300w. I then aged with the torii gates, putting 5 vills on the wonder. In transition, I chopped enough wood to get 125 if I had a 300w start, as well as food and coin for ashi production. I would then go 5 ashi 5 ashi 600w. Placed the rax wagon forward, pushing in with 10 ashi and the samurai. There is a video on MCJim's channel of me doing it poorly, and against french, which is about the worst civ to do this against.

The Toshuga gives you 20 pop space, 200 export and a very small trickle of resources. Torri gates is just bad because you can just gather the wood for a barracks easily and doesn't make much sense to go with that.
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Re: Alternate Japan play

Post by Darwin_ »

AOE3_Novice wrote:
Darwin_ wrote:I used to do a 300w torii gates build. I would start with 1 or 2 shrines depending on the start, and build another 2 or 3 with the 300w. I then aged with the torii gates, putting 5 vills on the wonder. In transition, I chopped enough wood to get 125 if I had a 300w start, as well as food and coin for ashi production. I would then go 5 ashi 5 ashi 600w. Placed the rax wagon forward, pushing in with 10 ashi and the samurai. There is a video on MCJim's channel of me doing it poorly, and against french, which is about the worst civ to do this against.

The Toshuga gives you 20 pop space, 200 export and a very small trickle of resources. Torri gates is just bad because you can just gather the wood for a barracks easily and doesn't make much sense to go with that.

You get bonus xp while fighting, which speeds up your shipment progression a ton. Toshuga is only good if you have kami, otherwise it is worth less than a vill. 200 export is only useful if you start consulate or mix one during transition. Torii gates is essentially the permanent effect of the azzy warchief, a free rax, and a samurai, which does a good job at denying an enemy fb and protecting yours. Also, the shogunate is a decent wonder if you are going for a daiymo rush, but torii is better.
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Re: Alternate Japan play

Post by gibson »

While kami is debatable based on the mu, the big shrine is just the best wonder to age with too age 2........
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Re: Alternate Japan play

Post by spadel »

Get rid of kami, it's been played for so many years now. People know where the weaknesses are and how to counter it. 300w and 3 boats are good shipments, not only for club rush ;)

Edit: there are exceptions such as siberia where kami is just super good tho because of the huge map
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Re: Alternate Japan play

Post by gh0st »

or watch dyddyd91's stream (william07171 something) he does pretty solid japan play, quite aggressive japan.
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Re: Alternate Japan play

Post by Hazza54321 »

I ship 3 boats whenever i can
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Re: Alternate Japan play

Post by britishmusketeer »

Darwin_ wrote:
AOE3_Novice wrote:
Darwin_ wrote:I used to do a 300w torii gates build. I would start with 1 or 2 shrines depending on the start, and build another 2 or 3 with the 300w. I then aged with the torii gates, putting 5 vills on the wonder. In transition, I chopped enough wood to get 125 if I had a 300w start, as well as food and coin for ashi production. I would then go 5 ashi 5 ashi 600w. Placed the rax wagon forward, pushing in with 10 ashi and the samurai. There is a video on MCJim's channel of me doing it poorly, and against french, which is about the worst civ to do this against.

The Toshuga gives you 20 pop space, 200 export and a very small trickle of resources. Torri gates is just bad because you can just gather the wood for a barracks easily and doesn't make much sense to go with that.

You get bonus xp while fighting, which speeds up your shipment progression a ton. Toshuga is only good if you have kami, otherwise it is worth less than a vill. 200 export is only useful if you start consulate or mix one during transition. Torii gates is essentially the permanent effect of the azzy warchief, a free rax, and a samurai, which does a good job at denying an enemy fb and protecting yours. Also, the shogunate is a decent wonder if you are going for a daiymo rush, but torii is better.

20 pop space ~ free rax, 200e >>>>> samurai, 2vills that scales with how many shrines you build >an extra shipment later on.
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Re: Alternate Japan play

Post by deleted_user0 »

gibson wrote:
forgrin wrote:A long history of pro Japan play has proven that Kami is really their only hope in competitive play, IMO. Without it you risk getting outscaled in eco, which is death to Japan because their entire game plan relies on that. The only way you win without it is versus a civ that couldn't outboom you even without Kami, which is a very short list.
this is literally only true in a Japan mirror. It's okay to go non kami in literally every single other matchup. While I'd still send it vs every civ that im not planning to rush, or think in going to be rushed, it's really not that great of a card. It's sort of like Virginia company Tbh and its really only standard to send it cause jap has no 3 vil shipment. You're not gonna get out scaled in eco cause you have 130 shrine pop and not 200. And realistically in most matchups you can't expect to have more than like 10-12ish shrines on hunts anyway.


But how does japan beat sioux then?! :O
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Re: Alternate Japan play

Post by Hazza54321 »

umeu wrote:
gibson wrote:
forgrin wrote:A long history of pro Japan play has proven that Kami is really their only hope in competitive play, IMO. Without it you risk getting outscaled in eco, which is death to Japan because their entire game plan relies on that. The only way you win without it is versus a civ that couldn't outboom you even without Kami, which is a very short list.
this is literally only true in a Japan mirror. It's okay to go non kami in literally every single other matchup. While I'd still send it vs every civ that im not planning to rush, or think in going to be rushed, it's really not that great of a card. It's sort of like Virginia company Tbh and its really only standard to send it cause jap has no 3 vil shipment. You're not gonna get out scaled in eco cause you have 130 shrine pop and not 200. And realistically in most matchups you can't expect to have more than like 10-12ish shrines on hunts anyway.


But how does japan beat sioux then?! :O

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Re: Alternate Japan play

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Re: Alternate Japan play

Post by Darwin_ »

britishmusketeer wrote:
Darwin_ wrote:
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You get bonus xp while fighting, which speeds up your shipment progression a ton. Toshuga is only good if you have kami, otherwise it is worth less than a vill. 200 export is only useful if you start consulate or mix one during transition. Torii gates is essentially the permanent effect of the azzy warchief, a free rax, and a samurai, which does a good job at denying an enemy fb and protecting yours. Also, the shogunate is a decent wonder if you are going for a daiymo rush, but torii is better.

20 pop space ~ free rax, 200e >>>>> samurai, 2vills that scales with how many shrines you build >an extra shipment later on.

I think that you are deffinetly right with all of those, if you ship kami. However, if you are shipping 300w, you are obviously not shrine booming. Japan has a fair number of good colonial shipments, and many can be sent twice. A toshogu without kami is a little bit better than 1 vill on food. However, the extra XP from the gates is very powerful, probably better than a TP, which Goodspeed assed to be worth about 3-4 vills on XP, so the extra eco from the torii gates can actually be better than from a non-kami toshogu. If you do plan on doing consulate, the 200e from the shrine is very useful, and the shrine allows you to fall back on eco. However, we seem to all be forgetting that starting consulate is almost a must, do to how much it can speed up your age-up on a 300w start. 200w starts are the best for doing aggression IMO because it is the worst start for eco.
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Re: Alternate Japan play

Post by gibson »

umeu wrote:
gibson wrote:
forgrin wrote:A long history of pro Japan play has proven that Kami is really their only hope in competitive play, IMO. Without it you risk getting outscaled in eco, which is death to Japan because their entire game plan relies on that. The only way you win without it is versus a civ that couldn't outboom you even without Kami, which is a very short list.
this is literally only true in a Japan mirror. It's okay to go non kami in literally every single other matchup. While I'd still send it vs every civ that im not planning to rush, or think in going to be rushed, it's really not that great of a card. It's sort of like Virginia company Tbh and its really only standard to send it cause jap has no 3 vil shipment. You're not gonna get out scaled in eco cause you have 130 shrine pop and not 200. And realistically in most matchups you can't expect to have more than like 10-12ish shrines on hunts anyway.


But how does japan beat sioux then?! :O
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Re: Alternate Japan play

Post by DaRkNiTe1698 »

Kami is available for any mu. You have to alternate it accordingly with the map. If you expect a rush then don't 600w 4v, send aggressive cards instead. If you're on a map full of berries, don't kami and try other bos
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Re: Alternate Japan play

Post by Hazza54321 »

shrines are totally overated, 3 boats is far superior to kami, i would only send kami on mid-high hunt maps.
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Re: Alternate Japan play

Post by __Uhlan__ »

Hazza54321 wrote:shrines are totally overated, 3 boats is far superior to kami, i would only send kami on mid-high hunt maps.


If your not playing on a water map, you don't really have another option but kami or 300w. I wonder if saving the shipment would work and send vill 4 vill 600c or something back to back to back.
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Re: Alternate Japan play

Post by KINGofOsmane »

2 vill is only gud in tp builds
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Re: Alternate Japan play

Post by Hazza54321 »

__Uhlan__ wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:shrines are totally overated, 3 boats is far superior to kami, i would only send kami on mid-high hunt maps.


If your not playing on a water map, you don't really have another option but kami or 300w. I wonder if saving the shipment would work and send vill 4 vill 600c or something back to back to back.

2v is also fine, you can boom more with the market and can also age faster vs rushes
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Re: Alternate Japan play

Post by KINGofOsmane »

Hazza54321 wrote:
__Uhlan__ wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:shrines are totally overated, 3 boats is far superior to kami, i would only send kami on mid-high hunt maps.


If your not playing on a water map, you don't really have another option but kami or 300w. I wonder if saving the shipment would work and send vill 4 vill 600c or something back to back to back.

2v is also fine, you can boom more with the market and can also age faster vs rushes

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