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So i've been reading up on china ff's lately.

I was wondering, could it be viable to age up with the white pagoda when u expect an early rush (like india russ iro)? This way u have some extra force (monk + disciples) to defend. Also the disciples can be easily replenished if needed, as long as u can hunt a little and save your monk. This way, instead of sacrificing a shipment to defend u sacrifice the summer palace.

Thoughts?

EscalonOne wrote:So i've been reading up on china ff's lately.

I was wondering, could it be viable to age up with the white pagoda when u expect an early rush (like india russ iro)? This way u have some extra force (monk + disciples) to defend. Also the disciples can be easily replenished if needed, as long as u can hunt a little and save your monk. This way, instead of sacrificing a shipment to defend u sacrifice the summer palace.

Thoughts?

You age up to age 2 with the summer palace because it gives you 400f to help you get to fortress faster and the banner army is super useful for defending. Then to age 3, the skirms/porcelain res are just better than disciples. Also disciples scale with age so in age 2 they are quite weak. They are also much better when they spawn from your hero in a fight since otherwise they are easily kited. The white pagoda can be used to age to age 4 since age 4 disciples are super strong however only if you need units asap as the other wonders are better long term.

I think the lack of summer palace will hurt you too much, delaying your age up, and you also lose the free units that soon come.. imo if you go with pagoda you have to play colonial.

to hold rushes: most people get a militar shipment instead of 700w to help defending, if you dont like that, you might try some semi-ff style, with a rax on age up, making some colonial presence then aging up latter.

Its possible and the disciple buff it gives is nice, but in the end 5 disciples = 400f so the free banner army ends up making the palace stronger.

8 ckn first and train 5 disciples from wonder, with minute men and vills tanking will hold any rush. the exp you get from the fighting might give you an extra shipment, if not then you can chop for the buildings

on ozark, autumn araucania, sonora etc you won't have food to age up without summer palace 400f.
sadly, these shitty maps are quite common in quicksearch.

I feel getting rushed as China is exactly what you want, most musket rushes or all rushes in general imo (excluding iro,Otto,russia) are easily holdable. I'd much prefer French to try and musk/hus rush me as China then face a semi-ff with stagecoach. and you honestly don't need 700w, a military shipment is fine becuase if he is committing to age 2 play and you hit up to age 3 and pushed back his rush a bit you already won the game. Monk/disciples banner army and a shipment and both batches of mm, is enough for you to get up to fortress without losing much.

thing to consider is

White pagoda age
- save a shipment
- have strong monk/disciples for rest of game

Summer Palace age
- gain 3bow3pike
- Have free batches for rest of the game


IF 3bow/pike is more or less the same as upgraded monk + 5 disciples THEN the only consideration is

Free batches (excluding first one) VS age2 shipment.
The age3 batches come out so slowly that the age2 shipment (probably 700w) may outweigh the free batches. Consider not being able to make a consulate or having to chop the wood for that + houses... the VS u lose wont outweigh the extra batch.

Ofcourse still assuming u actually NEED the extra force in the first place.

Honestly, everyone says summer palace but I've actually tried white pagoda ff, 10 buffed disciples plus a monk and mm will even beat musk in melee, these things are beast. While others may argue summer palace is better, pagoda just feels so much easier to me. Either way, it's up to you, just do what works best for you.

If you are going to be defensive as china, you might as well play age 2 honestly. China can push back and destroy russia and otto's fb if they play it right. You can go pagoda wonder, or you can do summer palace and build a monastery and get the upgrade or something like that. China's army has tons of siege potential, as you can get out 12 pikes, 10+ disciples and 3 chuks fairly early, so you can siege down their bh or raxes.

If u age up with white pogoda its so easily scouted so
Russia knows they can go defensive musk coss knowing that china is 400f down

That is the issue: it is super easy to scout china. I would just not play china vs. russia or otto.

Hazza54321 wrote:If u age up with white pogoda its so easily scouted so
Russia knows they can go defensive musk coss knowing that china is 400f down

That's why you build proxy forward pagoda.

Darwin_ wrote:That is the issue: it is super easy to scout china. I would just not play china vs. russia or otto.

Vs Russia you can get a tp in discovery, which lets you get away with boxer rebellion which lets you 1 shot all of Russia's units.

That is true. But still, just play brits or dutch or ports, just something else really, against those civs.

__Uhlan__ wrote:I feel getting rushed as China is exactly what you want, most musket rushes or all rushes in general imo (excluding iro,Otto,russia) are easily holdable. I'd much prefer French to try and musk/hus rush me as China then face a semi-ff with stagecoach. and you honestly don't need 700w, a military shipment is fine becuase if he is committing to age 2 play and you hit up to age 3 and pushed back his rush a bit you already won the game. Monk/disciples banner army and a shipment and both batches of mm, is enough for you to get up to fortress without losing much.

Yeah China is kinda hard to play against for me as a France guy. All in rush will probably be held off, playing Musk/Huss will most likely end with me losing to the snowball of death, and semi FF feels risky too.

I do love the Suvurov rush against China though

__Uhlan__ wrote:I feel getting rushed as China is exactly what you want, most musket rushes or all rushes in general imo (excluding iro,Otto,russia) are easily holdable. I'd much prefer French to try and musk/hus rush me as China then face a semi-ff with stagecoach. and you honestly don't need 700w, a military shipment is fine becuase if he is committing to age 2 play and you hit up to age 3 and pushed back his rush a bit you already won the game. Monk/disciples banner army and a shipment and both batches of mm, is enough for you to get up to fortress without losing much.

Wrong. Strong rushes are not holdable without walls and spending resources/shipments on defence. Skipping wood is bad, it means you only have shipments to fight. You should start with TP and send both military shipment and wood.

CurassierAndCurassier wrote:

__Uhlan__ wrote:I feel getting rushed as China is exactly what you want, most musket rushes or all rushes in general imo (excluding iro,Otto,russia) are easily holdable. I'd much prefer French to try and musk/hus rush me as China then face a semi-ff with stagecoach. and you honestly don't need 700w, a military shipment is fine becuase if he is committing to age 2 play and you hit up to age 3 and pushed back his rush a bit you already won the game. Monk/disciples banner army and a shipment and both batches of mm, is enough for you to get up to fortress without losing much.

Yeah China is kinda hard to play against for me as a France guy. All in rush will probably be held off, playing Musk/Huss will most likely end with me losing to the snowball of death, and semi FF feels risky too.

I do love the Suvurov rush against China though

You can go cav-semi with a trade route ideally into skirm & cuir heavy & goon heavy

yurashic wrote:

__Uhlan__ wrote:I feel getting rushed as China is exactly what you want, most musket rushes or all rushes in general imo (excluding iro,Otto,russia) are easily holdable. I'd much prefer French to try and musk/hus rush me as China then face a semi-ff with stagecoach. and you honestly don't need 700w, a military shipment is fine becuase if he is committing to age 2 play and you hit up to age 3 and pushed back his rush a bit you already won the game. Monk/disciples banner army and a shipment and both batches of mm, is enough for you to get up to fortress without losing much.

Wrong. Strong rushes are not holdable without walls and spending resources/shipments on defence. Skipping wood is bad, it means you only have shipments to fight. You should start with TP and send both military shipment and wood.

Well, with RE walls, you should be abusing walls every single game. Given that, I think it's pretty resource dependent, in the end.

Mixing hand cav against china is a really high risk/high reward scenario. You never know if they are just about to pop intervention+6 musks or 11 changdao, or strongest of all, manchu. If you get caught against any of those, you can loose all of your cav.

yurashic wrote:

__Uhlan__ wrote:I feel getting rushed as China is exactly what you want, most musket rushes or all rushes in general imo (excluding iro,Otto,russia) are easily holdable. I'd much prefer French to try and musk/hus rush me as China then face a semi-ff with stagecoach. and you honestly don't need 700w, a military shipment is fine becuase if he is committing to age 2 play and you hit up to age 3 and pushed back his rush a bit you already won the game. Monk/disciples banner army and a shipment and both batches of mm, is enough for you to get up to fortress without losing much.

Wrong. Strong rushes are not holdable without walls and spending resources/shipments on defence. Skipping wood is bad, it means you only have shipments to fight. You should start with TP and send both military shipment and wood.

You can hold without walls lol, you just need some skill at the game

yurashic wrote:

__Uhlan__ wrote:I feel getting rushed as China is exactly what you want, most musket rushes or all rushes in general imo (excluding iro,Otto,russia) are easily holdable. I'd much prefer French to try and musk/hus rush me as China then face a semi-ff with stagecoach. and you honestly don't need 700w, a military shipment is fine becuase if he is committing to age 2 play and you hit up to age 3 and pushed back his rush a bit you already won the game. Monk/disciples banner army and a shipment and both batches of mm, is enough for you to get up to fortress without losing much.

Wrong. Strong rushes are not holdable without walls and spending resources/shipments on defence. Skipping wood is bad, it means you only have shipments to fight. You should start with TP and send both military shipment and wood.

Decides Otto,iro,Russia I don't see a rush you can do that will stop me from hitting up safely.

__Uhlan__ wrote:

yurashic wrote:

__Uhlan__ wrote:I feel getting rushed as China is exactly what you want, most musket rushes or all rushes in general imo (excluding iro,Otto,russia) are easily holdable. I'd much prefer French to try and musk/hus rush me as China then face a semi-ff with stagecoach. and you honestly don't need 700w, a military shipment is fine becuase if he is committing to age 2 play and you hit up to age 3 and pushed back his rush a bit you already won the game. Monk/disciples banner army and a shipment and both batches of mm, is enough for you to get up to fortress without losing much.

Wrong. Strong rushes are not holdable without walls and spending resources/shipments on defence. Skipping wood is bad, it means you only have shipments to fight. You should start with TP and send both military shipment and wood.

Decides Otto,iro,Russia I don't see a rush you can do that will stop me from hitting up safely.

India, Aztec, Port 10/10.

yurashic wrote:

__Uhlan__ wrote:

Show hidden quotes

yurashic wrote:

__Uhlan__ wrote:I feel getting rushed as China is exactly what you want, most musket rushes or all rushes in general imo (excluding iro,Otto,russia) are easily holdable. I'd much prefer French to try and musk/hus rush me as China then face a semi-ff with stagecoach. and you honestly don't need 700w, a military shipment is fine becuase if he is committing to age 2 play and you hit up to age 3 and pushed back his rush a bit you already won the game. Monk/disciples banner army and a shipment and both batches of mm, is enough for you to get up to fortress without losing much.

Wrong. Strong rushes are not holdable without walls and spending resources/shipments on defence. Skipping wood is bad, it means you only have shipments to fight. You should start with TP and send both military shipment and wood.

Decides Otto,iro,Russia I don't see a rush you can do that will stop me from hitting up safely.

India, Aztec, Port 10/10.

India 8 cho ko shipment & minutemen/monk

Aztec focus pokes & age with skrim (but yea I did forget this one probably a hard MU)

No way you win with a port 10/10 lol.

India is a pretty easy win IMO. Port should be too, the others are harder.