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Canada Lunatic_Fringe
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19 Jan 2017, 01:21

I've been playing Japan vs Russia and most of the time can't find an option to beat them.
Russia come with a strelet mass which counters the Ashis easily. I also tried the nagi/ashi option to counter strelets and cossacks, but it takes too long to get a good set of those to beat the Russia.
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Netherlands Jerom
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19 Jan 2017, 01:49

It requires walling and efficiently using tc fire against strelets. Probably wouldnt advice going heavenly kami unless you want to make an unreal amount of walls.

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Tuvalu gibson
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19 Jan 2017, 02:10

It's not really winnable on a standard map if the Russian player scouts. If the jap player goes for an all in build Russia just does a boomier build and jap can never break a bh fb and Russia wins mid or late game. If jap does a boom build Russia just rushes and wins early.
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Canada Lunatic_Fringe
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19 Jan 2017, 02:18

Jerom wrote:It requires walling and efficiently using tc fire against strelets. Probably wouldnt advice going heavenly kami unless you want to make an unreal amount of walls.


So which card should be sent? 2 vills?
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Canada Lunatic_Fringe
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19 Jan 2017, 02:21

gibson wrote:It's not really winnable on a standard map if the Russian player scouts. If the jap player goes for an all in build Russia just does a boomier build and jap can never break a bh fb and Russia wins mid or late game. If jap does a boom build Russia just rushes and wins early.


Yes if he doesn't give time, it looks like a lost cause. I was trying to figure out which group of Jap units can be useful in the early portion of the game. Nagi/Ashi don't work. Ashi/Yumi don't work either.
Tuvalu gibson
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19 Jan 2017, 02:37

I usually do a blind Nagi with a stable away from base so they don't scout, start 600g and hope they walk into my base with 23 stre. You can probably do decent with some wall shit too
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Canada Lunatic_Fringe
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19 Jan 2017, 02:42

Sounds fair. Looks like a no-win situation in most cases though.
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United States of America IAmSoldieR
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19 Jan 2017, 02:56

I'd try a 300w , 300e stable start. Build minimal houses, should be able to get at least 3nagi and otto cons huss early enough. You can also try torii gates which gives you a good anti coss unit that can cover mode vs muskets, and a free stable, so they really can't push deep with the first five coss and musk
Tuvalu gibson
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19 Jan 2017, 02:58

IAmSoldieR wrote:I'd try a 300w , 300e stable start. Build minimal houses, should be able to get at least 3nagi and otto cons huss early enough. You can also try torii gates which gives you a good anti coss unit that can cover mode vs muskets, and a free stable, so they really can't push deep with the first five coss and musk
jap hasn't got otto cons :(
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United States of America IAmSoldieR
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19 Jan 2017, 03:01

Errr Russia cons then? Or even port might be better with xb to supplement straight Nagi.

I think the most important part of winning this mu is that once you hold the first push, to make sure to build far away shrines
Tuvalu gibson
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19 Jan 2017, 03:01

IAmSoldieR wrote:Errr Russia cons then?
dutch Spain port jap
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United States of America IAmSoldieR
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19 Jan 2017, 03:06

Ah ok. Then ya probably 600coin is best first to make sure a full batch of Nagi. I want to try this matchup a bit. I think it'd be fun trying to micro TC fire + hero divine strikes vs strl or musk
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United States of America IAmSoldieR
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19 Jan 2017, 03:09

I'd imagine 300w for tp or cons with torrid gates would give you the best chance vs rushes
Greece tedere12
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19 Jan 2017, 03:24

vs russia you should start stable, they always start strelet and ship either strelet or cossacks, You can ship 2 vills/3 boats 1st or300 wood, build consulate in transition and age with the shrine wonder. This will give you export for 7 clubs usually. Ship 600 coin and queue 5 nagi. U will get 5 nagi 5 clubs at 5:40 (not sure if u can do it earlier) and trap russia's army and clean it up, and then destroy their fb if u can or raid them so they cant remass (russia has weak early eco). Next shipment can be units or crates, without 600 gold next you can't make complete batch of cav, I can only get 3 max. I am not aware how the build order goes after that since I saw this build from dyddyd's stream once and I've tried it myself only a few times.
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Serbia sirmusket
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19 Jan 2017, 04:23

tedere12 wrote:vs russia you should start stable,

sigh, you cannot start stable as Japan vs Russia, if he scouts you just idle him with 5/4coss and siege stable with musk, he will get 3 nagi max out, its just hopeless, pretty sure duck tried this vs me, and it didn't go well, this MU is hard as it is for Japan let alone trying stable which you will never get a full batch of nagi, you wont even get 4, you cant get 5 nagi, when he has 5 coss 5 musk in your base at like 5 min, rofl, and you age at like 4:40.., explain how you gather 1k res in 20sec
Greece tedere12
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19 Jan 2017, 04:31

sirmusket wrote:
tedere12 wrote:vs russia you should start stable,

sigh, you cannot start stable as Japan vs Russia, if he scouts you just idle him with 5/4coss and siege stable with musk, he will get 3 nagi max out, its just hopeless, pretty sure duck tried this vs me, and it didn't go well, this MU is hard as it is for Japan let alone trying stable which you will never get a full batch of nagi, you wont even get 4, you cant get 5 nagi, when he has 5 coss 5 musk in your base at like 5 min, rofl, and you age at like 4:40.., explain how you gather 1k res in 20sec

You gather the food in transition, u age 4:30.
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Serbia sirmusket
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19 Jan 2017, 05:02

tedere12 wrote:
sirmusket wrote:
tedere12 wrote:vs russia you should start stable,

sigh, you cannot start stable as Japan vs Russia, if he scouts you just idle him with 5/4coss and siege stable with musk, he will get 3 nagi max out, its just hopeless, pretty sure duck tried this vs me, and it didn't go well, this MU is hard as it is for Japan let alone trying stable which you will never get a full batch of nagi, you wont even get 4, you cant get 5 nagi, when he has 5 coss 5 musk in your base at like 5 min, rofl, and you age at like 4:40.., explain how you gather 1k res in 20sec

You gather the food in transition, u age 4:30.

lol, your basically cutting shrines/vills to MAYBE get a full batch of nagi that if he scouts jap cons can easily be stopped, he just takes tp's off 700w, and waits for timing since your eco is pretty all in, theres no way you can win with that BO sorry.
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19 Jan 2017, 05:07

sirmusket wrote:
tedere12 wrote:vs russia you should start stable,

sigh, you cannot start stable as Japan vs Russia, if he scouts you just idle him with 5/4coss and siege stable with musk, he will get 3 nagi max out, its just hopeless, pretty sure duck tried this vs me, and it didn't go well, this MU is hard as it is for Japan let alone trying stable which you will never get a full batch of nagi, you wont even get 4, you cant get 5 nagi, when he has 5 coss 5 musk in your base at like 5 min, rofl, and you age at like 4:40.., explain how you gather 1k res in 20sec

if you send 600gd you can get 5 naga probably
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Serbia sirmusket
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19 Jan 2017, 05:10

farran34 wrote:
sirmusket wrote:
tedere12 wrote:vs russia you should start stable,

sigh, you cannot start stable as Japan vs Russia, if he scouts you just idle him with 5/4coss and siege stable with musk, he will get 3 nagi max out, its just hopeless, pretty sure duck tried this vs me, and it didn't go well, this MU is hard as it is for Japan let alone trying stable which you will never get a full batch of nagi, you wont even get 4, you cant get 5 nagi, when he has 5 coss 5 musk in your base at like 5 min, rofl, and you age at like 4:40.., explain how you gather 1k res in 20sec

if you send 600gd you can get 5 naga probably

Even if you get somehow 5 nagi out (which you wont), 9coss 5musk-10 just beats that, and you are basically relying to trap him with 5 nagi/clubs, if he just scouts stable/jap conso he can probably use his brain and know you are doing all in/low eco build, and just ship 700w/2nd bh tps and spam musk, no reason for himt o stand under TC, pretty sure we learnt this by now as Russia, if you are srsly arguing that stable start actually works... then just wow, you need basically perfect micro/macro and perfect idiocy from the player to stand under tc/mm/stable to maybe win the fight, not even the game since you did 600g, just no way you can win with nagi start end of story.
Greece tedere12
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19 Jan 2017, 05:12

well u lost as russia to a club rush the other day, no nagis involved, what do you have to say about that ;)
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Serbia sirmusket
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19 Jan 2017, 05:24

tedere12 wrote:well u lost as russia to a club rush the other day, no nagis involved, what do you have to say about that ;)

my bh was half sieged and i was playing horrible, typical tedere tho, as soon as you know you lost the argument, because your BO is ass and wont actually work, you try to give example of 1 game i played horrible in, when in fact i beat duck who is x10 better than the player i lost to, ps: duck got 5 ashi 4 nagi which is even better then 4 nagi 5 club and still it was hopeless cause russia just back and take tp, just please dont talk, nagi start is like banking on luck and a good pop, its 1/10 chance you will win.
Greece tedere12
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19 Jan 2017, 05:31

I tried it and u get 5 nagi out at 5:20
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Serbia sirmusket
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19 Jan 2017, 05:33

tedere12 wrote:I tried it and u get 5 nagi out at 5:20

rofl, is that with or without pressure, I could only imagine trying to deal with 5coss 5 musk with no units for 30sec, by then russia could just 4 coss aswell and youll have 9 coss 5 musk with 5 more musk otw, also you cut down like 50% shrines, since you are gathering food for vills and nagi in trans, basically to get a full batch you can only have like 70/80 shrine pop its absurd and wont work, Russia is just in a way better position after aswell.
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Germany yemshi
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19 Jan 2017, 05:37

If you go 70/80 pop im not really surprised though.
5 nagi is very hard to do without 600c and no problem with 600c. You muppets just want to kami full market into 600w rax.
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Serbia sirmusket
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19 Jan 2017, 05:50

yemshi wrote:If you go 70/80 pop im not really surprised though.
5 nagi is very hard to do without 600c and no problem with 600c. You muppets just want to kami full market into 600w rax.

your sacrificing eco for 5 cav..., which arent fuking cuirs, 9coss 5 musk will shit on 5 nagi and from there you just idle and rally strel coss into japans base rofl, while you take map with 700w and tps, and siege his shrine count that is ALREADY low as fuck

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