No Flag farran34
Dragoon
Donator 01
Posts: 367

19 Jan 2017, 05:53

600gd into naga start is probably the best start as japan vs russia. Sure russia probably still has a solid advantage, russia is just good in this mu, but it works better than most other strats.

Russia shouldnt push in hard vs 600gd start japan imo anyway its risky as balls assuming japan put an extra vill or two on the wonder to age a bit faster
Greece tedere12
Howdah
Posts: 1931

19 Jan 2017, 05:58

If u 700w vs such an "all in" build you might straight up lose
"Well, now you are playing otto, but tommorow you might become a rapist, or a serial killer" -VaneStoilov
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Serbia sirmusket
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ESO: Sir_Musket
Location: Australia

19 Jan 2017, 06:00

tedere12 wrote:If u 700w vs such an "all in" build you might straight up lose

700w after 5coss 5 musk, lose to what? your nagi will die, i will have 5 more musk otw and 4 coss shipment soon , your mass wont be even able to contest bh, clearly you don't know what your saying but w.e
No Flag farran34
Dragoon
Donator 01
Posts: 367

19 Jan 2017, 06:01

tedere12 wrote:If u 700w vs such an "all in" build you might straight up lose

If you fb as russia vs a consolate rush and send 700wd you will lose fb you right. If russia scouts and doesnt fb though they can hold fine
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China fei123456
Jaeger
Posts: 2228
ESO: fei123456
Location: Alderaan

19 Jan 2017, 06:14

Stable+cm, or just consulate rush
It's already a war, and I have nothing to lose.
----diarouga
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United States of America IAmSoldieR
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19 Jan 2017, 06:52

Musket, we can try in 3 hours, I'll show you how Nagi start can work
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Serbia sirmusket
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Posts: 1699
ESO: Sir_Musket
Location: Australia

19 Jan 2017, 07:36

Guys, stable start is something that can be done, but if your going to argue that it has better chances of winning every time vs a good Russian player, then idk really..
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Norway oxaloacetate
Dragoon
Posts: 201

19 Jan 2017, 07:48

sirmusket wrote:Guys, stable start is something that can be done, but if your going to argue that it has better chances of winning every time vs a good Russian player, then idk really..


They aren't saying that. You are.

Unlike you, it seems they don't believe this game to be a simulation of microsoft excel with no variations.
Chess, Go, toothpicks. In that exact order.
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Serbia sirmusket
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Location: Australia

19 Jan 2017, 08:01

oxaloacetate wrote:
sirmusket wrote:Guys, stable start is something that can be done, but if your going to argue that it has better chances of winning every time vs a good Russian player, then idk really..


They aren't saying that. You are.

Unlike you, it seems they don't believe this game to be a simulation of microsoft excel with no variations.

they were making it seem like it would more times than lose, which is not the case
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China fei123456
Jaeger
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Location: Alderaan

19 Jan 2017, 08:14

Consulate rush (300w or 3 boat start) into naginata+clubs+3samurai can easily kill russian fb. Russia has to build blockhouse in base, but japan can send 4v4v or 600w to boom after that anyway, and take map control to starve russia.
It's already a war, and I have nothing to lose.
----diarouga
No Flag spadel
Musketeer
Posts: 79

19 Jan 2017, 08:27

It's not that easy to kill russia if he doesn't overcommit. You can either win with defensive shrine boom and cm (like kami, 600w, cm) or with nagi/ashi shipments + 5 clubs (like 300w/3 boats, 5 ashi, 5 ashi). 300exp sux, you dont need that many clubs. It's much better to ship 5 ashis first, since a good russia player will start muskets anyways. Also if you dont ship ashis, 5 cossacks in your base can be a problem (at least for me, as i tend to build the consulate relatively late and use the 300w for shrines). It's important to get at least 4 naginatas out (which is very well possible if you dont just blindly run your shrines on wood).

By the way, the most important thing in pushing Russia's fb is the use the explorers. Because Russia's units have that few hp they last hit quite frequently :O I think the matchup is pretty even.

Edit: Ah and by the way. If you scout him going boomy with 2 defensive blockhouses, you gotta switch to some more eco play, too.
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Serbia sirmusket
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19 Jan 2017, 08:34

spadel wrote:It's not that easy to kill russia if he doesn't overcommit. You can either win with defensive shrine boom and cm (like kami, 600w, cm) or with nagi/ashi shipments + 5 clubs (like 300w/3 boats, 5 ashi, 5 ashi). 300exp sux, you dont need that many clubs. It's much better to ship 5 ashis first, since a good russia player will start muskets anyways. Also if you dont ship ashis, 5 cossacks in your base can be a problem (at least for me, as i tend to build the consulate relatively late and use the 300w for shrines). It's important to get at least 4 naginatas out (which is very well possible if you dont just blindly run your shrines on wood).

By the way, the most important thing in pushing Russia's fb is the use the explorers. Because Russia's units have that few hp they last hit quite frequently :O I think the matchup is pretty even.

Edit: Ah and by the way. If you scout him going boomy with 2 defensive blockhouses, you gotta switch to some more eco play, too.

MU is Russian favoured really, and if your doing 5 ashi 5 ashi, russia just has huge timing with strel/coss boyars, I just don't see how you win as Japan if your starting cav unless he plays it bad and Japan has OP macro, you cant just siege russain bh with 3 samurai, he can always send 13 strel/+batch of musk and call mm if need be to hold no problem, and honestly I don't think 3 sam is a good card at all.
No Flag spadel
Musketeer
Posts: 79

19 Jan 2017, 08:39

why would you allow a timing? if he doesnt harass you with 5 coss 5 musk then you can just run over his base, thats actually the easiest way to win!! :P I didn't say you should ship samurais, of course they suck. And yes, it's helpful to be able to use cover mode adequately to make your clubs as effective as possible. I have played this matchup so many times against good opponents that I can guarantee you, this MU is at least 50:50
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Serbia sirmusket
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19 Jan 2017, 09:04

spadel wrote:why would you allow a timing? if he doesnt harass you with 5 coss 5 musk then you can just run over his base, thats actually the easiest way to win!! :P I didn't say you should ship samurais, of course they suck. And yes, it's helpful to be able to use cover mode adequately to make your clubs as effective as possible. I have played this matchup so many times against good opponents that I can guarantee you, this MU is at least 50:50

its at least 60:40 russian favoured lol, and on EP even 70:30
No Flag spadel
Musketeer
Posts: 79

19 Jan 2017, 09:35

This is your subjective opnion because you obviously can't handle the matchup :D
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Finland princeofkabul
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19 Jan 2017, 09:43

x )
LoOk_tOm: U think that can u the lag
Hazza54321: Go fking play mariokart seriously

"I rather suck dick than play treaty" - Gibson 2k17
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Serbia sirmusket
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ESO: Sir_Musket
Location: Australia

19 Jan 2017, 10:01

spadel wrote:This is your subjective opnion because you obviously can't handle the matchup :D

I don;t even play as Japan in this MU, i play as Russia and usually win, but pfft, if you think its 50:50 w.e since you know best
Great Britain Hazza54321
Jaeger
Posts: 3319

19 Jan 2017, 10:22

Starting cav means u have half the eco as russia. you could have started rax but it is a gamble qnd if if russia goes strel coss u die at 7mims
PutThePastInACasket : some say the universe is even bigger than the space between the starting TC and second hunt on fertile crescent
No Flag spadel
Musketeer
Posts: 79

19 Jan 2017, 10:36

I don't know best but I know good enough that this Matchup is actually pretty easy for japan unless you are against top players, where it can get trickier. Most of the games I had in this matchup didnt even pass the 8 minute mark. The reason why Russia is regarded as favoured in this MU is because people use bad builds for Japan. 600g for 1 more nagi when you can have 5 ashis instead? 300exp for 5 more clubs when you are up against muskets? ..it's obviously just bad.

Unless you are against 35+ it's relatively simple for anyone to win this matchup as japan, as long as you dont have unspent wood in the early game, send 5 ashis, fight with heroes and use cover mode for the clubs. Follow up would be 2nd 5 ashi or 600w, depending on whether you need more army to not die/finally kill his blockhouse, rax from the next 100exp and a switch to a more ashi based army. It's in fact one of the matchups where you dont even have to adapt most of the time to win it, just because that build is so strong.
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Serbia sirmusket
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Posts: 1699
ESO: Sir_Musket
Location: Australia

19 Jan 2017, 10:40

Hazza54321 wrote:Starting cav means u have half the eco as russia. you could have started rax but it is a gamble qnd if if russia goes strel coss u die at 7mims

agreed
No Flag spadel
Musketeer
Posts: 79

19 Jan 2017, 10:45

aha, starting cav means you have half the eco as russia, when you are always able to send 8 villagers in age 2 while russia's only eco card is spice trade :D

plus you have shrines gathering for you. I don't see how this statement makes any sense!
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China fei123456
Jaeger
Posts: 2228
ESO: fei123456
Location: Alderaan

19 Jan 2017, 11:07

spadel wrote:It's not that easy to kill russia if he doesn't overcommit. You can either win with defensive shrine boom and cm (like kami, 600w, cm) or with nagi/ashi shipments + 5 clubs (like 300w/3 boats, 5 ashi, 5 ashi). 300exp sux, you dont need that many clubs. It's much better to ship 5 ashis first, since a good russia player will start muskets anyways. Also if you dont ship ashis, 5 cossacks in your base can be a problem (at least for me, as i tend to build the consulate relatively late and use the 300w for shrines). It's important to get at least 4 naginatas out (which is very well possible if you dont just blindly run your shrines on wood).

By the way, the most important thing in pushing Russia's fb is the use the explorers. Because Russia's units have that few hp they last hit quite frequently :O I think the matchup is pretty even.

Edit: Ah and by the way. If you scout him going boomy with 2 defensive blockhouses, you gotta switch to some more eco play, too.

why not send 3samurai 3samurai?
It's already a war, and I have nothing to lose.
----diarouga
Great Britain Hazza54321
Jaeger
Posts: 3319

19 Jan 2017, 11:09

spadel wrote:aha, starting cav means you have half the eco as russia, when you are always able to send 8 villagers in age 2 while russia's only eco card is spice trade :D

plus you have shrines gathering for you. I don't see how this statement makes any sense!

700w and take the tp lone and double bh, u cant break it especially on ep
PutThePastInACasket : some say the universe is even bigger than the space between the starting TC and second hunt on fertile crescent
Germany lordraphael
Howdah
Posts: 1657

19 Jan 2017, 11:25

The mu is russian favoured. However spadel is right aswell, most players ,even very good ones, have no idea how to play this mu correctly. Spadel is really the only jap player i know of that is really hard to beat in that mu and that will always give you a run for your money. Its true if you play vs him the mu feels pretty even, but if you play vs other players it feels very russia favoured.

The question is if all players just suck in that mu from Jp pov or if spadel is just exceptionally good in that mu.
breeze wrote:they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
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Serbia sirmusket
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Posts: 1699
ESO: Sir_Musket
Location: Australia

19 Jan 2017, 11:47

spadel wrote:aha, starting cav means you have half the eco as russia, when you are always able to send 8 villagers in age 2 while russia's only eco card is spice trade :D

plus you have shrines gathering for you. I don't see how this statement makes any sense!

can you even afford to send 4v4v vs russia, youll be dead before then XD, russia just rally's strel/coss under your TC and gg

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