dutch check or rush play

[Tiri0]

though i play this game 2 or 3 weeks, when i play dutch against civ using eco-boom play, i felt desperate.
Because i dont know what opponent to do such as rush, i do semi-ff and lose the game.
what is dutch check play? aging up with 400w, 1bank and 2nd card 700w and building stable,and making huss-push?
i want to know dutch push play against eco-play like china, india, japan, or any other civ using tp play?
Furthermore if oppoent do tp play building 2 or 3 tp, it is okay for dutch to do semi-ff or ff with 3bank, and pushing? i think it is very late...
i need ur help.

[Jaeger]

There are better dutch players than me who will comment here I think, but most of the time dutch is happy if the enemy play eco. This is because the worst situation for dutch is if the opponent attack hard and they cannot reach age 3; in age 2 the only anticavqlry is pikeman, which is mot so good.

If you think the opponent will rush (for example by scouting fb, or just when they play russia) it is good to ship bank wagon and make stable from 400w from age up. But if your opponent is not rushing, it may be better to ship 700w first and make 1 bank from 400w and 1 bank+stable+ house from 700w .

If you play vs China ff, the best thing to do I think is to ship 700w 600w and make 4 banks, and then age up and ship 1000w

[Kaiserklein]

Dutch is just not a very strong civ, they lost most of their match ups. It's normal that you struggle. But mostly dutch will semi ff, or ff 4 banks, against this kind of play

[CurassierAndCurassier]

I like the Dutch a lot, but they do straight up lose some matchups. You need to reach Age 3 ASAP so lots of civs that thrive on early pressure (Germany, Russia, India-ish) can take them out easily. But if you survive, or your opponent tries to out boom you, the Dutch can spam out endless batches of Ruyters and Skirms, two very cheap units with good kiting ability.

Also don't sleep on that 8 Pike shipment's ability to rush.

[EscalonOne]

Semi-ff only works if you hurt your opponent more than the semi hurt you.

There are typically 2 situations in which u semi
1) u need semi to hold off a strong rush (typical vs early agression)
2) you see an opportunity to harrass opponent (i.e. bad herds)

In other cases you probably want to do 3 bank FF cause otherwise the enemy's timing push will own you.

[__Uhlan__]

Semi-ff only works if you hurt your opponent more than the semi hurt you.

There are typically 2 situations in which u semi
1) u need semi to hold off a strong rush (typical vs early agression)
2) you see an opportunity to harrass opponent (i.e. bad herds)

In other cases you probably want to do 3 bank FF cause otherwise the enemy's timing push will own you.

How does a 3 bank semi hurt you?

[__Uhlan__]

If they going eco, just 700w 600w 4 vill get full market & 4 banks gather for the age up. 1kwood in fortress 2 raxes 2 stables & spam spam spam. If you can get away with this of course, more then likely you will have to do 3 banks or 700c to age faster & will need to send something like 9 Ruyter to defend a age two push.

[spadel]

Semi-ff only works if you hurt your opponent more than the semi hurt you.

There are typically 2 situations in which u semi
1) u need semi to hold off a strong rush (typical vs early agression)
2) you see an opportunity to harrass opponent (i.e. bad herds)

In other cases you probably want to do 3 bank FF cause otherwise the enemy's timing push will own you.

How does a 3 bank semi hurt you?

Well, basically any units that you build without being able to make an effective use of is a waste of ressources. For example a 5 hus semi against a naked Spain FF (which is easy to scout) will probably cost you the game.

[__Uhlan__]

Semi-ff only works if you hurt your opponent more than the semi hurt you.

There are typically 2 situations in which u semi
1) u need semi to hold off a strong rush (typical vs early agression)
2) you see an opportunity to harrass opponent (i.e. bad herds)

In other cases you probably want to do 3 bank FF cause otherwise the enemy's timing push will own you.

How does a 3 bank semi hurt you?

Well, basically any units that you build without being able to make an effective use of is a waste of ressources. For example a 5 hus semi against a naked Spain FF (which is easy to scout) will probably cost you the game.

well true but that matchup is hopeless no matter what you do really. I can see your point but, you can always idle him maybe pick up a big treasure or two & then save them for later raids during a big fight etc.

[momuuu]

Semi-ff only works if you hurt your opponent more than the semi hurt you.

There are typically 2 situations in which u semi
1) u need semi to hold off a strong rush (typical vs early agression)
2) you see an opportunity to harrass opponent (i.e. bad herds)

In other cases you probably want to do 3 bank FF cause otherwise the enemy's timing push will own you.

Idk if you know this yet, but in practise a hussar semi-ff beats an FF. It causes so much idle time that you end up trading those hussars away to TC fire for value. Thats why you can't realistically do a straight FF, the cav starts will just annihilate you with raiding. You have to train at least a minimal amount of units to prevent that from happening. The trick to playing dutch is the make the minimal amount of units possible and then age without dying.

Imo otto and spain FF rely so much on shipments and can't do a semi-ff that against those civs a straight FF is possibly better (although against spain its hopeless anyways, I think playing colonial is better). Against china and potentially Japan (although they require specific play imo) a hussar semi might not do enough damage and both those civs cant hussar semi you so you might be better off doing a straight ff. But against all other civs I think it's strictly better to semi-ff.

[gibson]

do a pike semi as dutch vs a cav semi ff imo. You can either train like 7 or 8 pikes or send 8. This way you spend less res on military than your opponent, eliminate the chance of him doing damage, and eliminate the risk that your cav gets caught by a superior amount of cav, basically losing you the game.

[tedere12]

Imo pike tower rush vs cav semi

[momuuu]

do a pike semi as dutch vs a cav semi ff imo. You can either train like 7 or 8 pikes or send 8. This way you spend less res on military than your opponent, eliminate the chance of him doing damage, and eliminate the risk that your cav gets caught by a superior amount of cav, basically losing you the game.

I think 5-7 hussars honestly do a better job defending and represent actual military power afterwards in fortress, unlike the pikes.

[gibson]

do a pike semi as dutch vs a cav semi ff imo. You can either train like 7 or 8 pikes or send 8. This way you spend less res on military than your opponent, eliminate the chance of him doing damage, and eliminate the risk that your cav gets caught by a superior amount of cav, basically losing you the game.

I think 5-7 hussars honestly do a better job defending and represent actual military power afterwards in fortress, unlike the pikes.

i mean it's a higher risk higher reward. Huss are ofc better units but if you're aggressive with them you could lose them. With pikes you know youre spending less than you're opponent, so all things being equal you'll be ahead. Although I guess if they scout early in base rax they could just not make any units.

[EscalonOne]

Semi-ff only works if you hurt your opponent more than the semi hurt you.

There are typically 2 situations in which u semi
1) u need semi to hold off a strong rush (typical vs early agression)
2) you see an opportunity to harrass opponent (i.e. bad herds)

In other cases you probably want to do 3 bank FF cause otherwise the enemy's timing push will own you.

Idk if you know this yet, but in practise a hussar semi-ff beats an FF. It causes so much idle time that you end up trading those hussars away to TC fire for value. Thats why you can't realistically do a straight FF, the cav starts will just annihilate you with raiding. You have to train at least a minimal amount of units to prevent that from happening. The trick to playing dutch is the make the minimal amount of units possible and then age without dying.

Imo otto and spain FF rely so much on shipments and can't do a semi-ff that against those civs a straight FF is possibly better (although against spain its hopeless anyways, I think playing colonial is better). Against china and potentially Japan (although they require specific play imo) a hussar semi might not do enough damage and both those civs cant hussar semi you so you might be better off doing a straight ff. But against all other civs I think it's strictly better to semi-ff.

Im not sure what youre saying. Never ff because hussar semi beats you?

[macacoalbino]

i mean it's a higher risk higher reward. Huss are ofc better units but if you're aggressive with them you could lose them. With pikes you know youre spending less than you're opponent, so all things being equal you'll be ahead. Although I guess if they scout early in base rax they could just not make any units.

Its not even riskier... You just keep 5hus in base to surround their raiding hus and pop some from stable if you see the opportunity, if you cant do it, cancel the 2nd batch and use the 5 to raid once in fortress

[momuuu]

Semi-ff only works if you hurt your opponent more than the semi hurt you.

There are typically 2 situations in which u semi
1) u need semi to hold off a strong rush (typical vs early agression)
2) you see an opportunity to harrass opponent (i.e. bad herds)

In other cases you probably want to do 3 bank FF cause otherwise the enemy's timing push will own you.

Idk if you know this yet, but in practise a hussar semi-ff beats an FF. It causes so much idle time that you end up trading those hussars away to TC fire for value. Thats why you can't realistically do a straight FF, the cav starts will just annihilate you with raiding. You have to train at least a minimal amount of units to prevent that from happening. The trick to playing dutch is the make the minimal amount of units possible and then age without dying.

Imo otto and spain FF rely so much on shipments and can't do a semi-ff that against those civs a straight FF is possibly better (although against spain its hopeless anyways, I think playing colonial is better). Against china and potentially Japan (although they require specific play imo) a hussar semi might not do enough damage and both those civs cant hussar semi you so you might be better off doing a straight ff. But against all other civs I think it's strictly better to semi-ff.

Im not sure what youre saying. Never ff because hussar semi beats you?

Thats the very short of it. Straight ff is often just bad unless you are countering another straight ff.