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23 Feb 2017, 17:18

Time to break Jerom's monopoly on Dutch guides! Did our main man GoodSpeed deliver? Let's find out! :flowers:


**


Dutch

Dutch suffer from a mild case of close but no cigar. They are a boom civ, and they can get a good economy fairly quickly, but (there’s always a “but” with this civ) it requires a massive investment of 1500w and 1500f for +16 vills. Compared to other boom civs, for example Japan which gets +20 vills by spending 1500 wood, this isn’t great. In fact, due to banks not scaling with market upgrades (if only they did Dutch might’ve been balanced), Dutch’s 4 bank eco is barely better than France’s early colonial eco after 4v and steel traps. And let’s not forget that Dutch’s vills are more expensive than other civs’ vills. Their boom is ok, but not quite good enough. Close, but no cigar.
Dutch have decent colonial potential with skirms and a quick age up, but they don’t have musks and pikes awkwardly cost wood, which means you really don’t want to be making too many of them. This makes musk+huss a devastating comp to face as Dutch. In other words their colonial is ok, but not quite good enough. Close, but no cigar.
And then there’s fortress age, which Dutch generally aim for. Note that they don’t aim for fortress because their fortress is so great, but because they generally can’t win in colonial. As for their fortress, they have a decent eco by now, a fast age politician and ranged cavalry. But they don’t have a 2 falc shipment and their units are nothing special (they even have to upgrade the huss) whereas most civs get something new and game changing in fortress (think cuirs, lancers, urumi, etc). Dutch even has to admit at this point that their eco is barely better than their opponent’s, because they don’t scale very well with market ups. Close, but no cigar.

Dutch are almost always the civ that needs to take the fight into fortress age, because musk+huss simply isn’t beatable with skirm+pike. They also have to invest a lot of resources in ther economy which means their opponent is generally completely free to do whatever they want. Dutch is on the defensive against even the most eco-heavy musk+huss semi-FFs, and in some cases even has trouble ageing up with 4 banks safely. More often than not, they need walls to even reach fortress safely, and if you look at what they have in fortress and at how big their economy is, they shouldn’t have to. Unlike civs like Japs or India, Dutch’s fortress is not nearly good enough to warrant how scared they are for timing pressure in colonial, from a balance perspective.

Dutch also don’t fit into the TP meta very well. They already have trouble getting both a decent defensive mass and banks up in early colonial, and adding a TP really isn’t something they can generally afford. In fact the only time I would build a TP as Dutch is with a 200w start, trying to squeeze one in later is just going to make it even harder for you to reach fortress safely and is most likely going to slow down your bank boom. This means that, because other civs are happily abusing TPs all over the place whereas Dutch aren’t, Dutch will be even worse in the TP meta than they already were before.

The only real strength of Dutch is that they’re creating resources out of thin air, much like Japan. They don’t have to gather all their gold from mines and they don’t use much food, which means the resources in their base will generally last them a while longer than their opponents’. Dutch with access to 3 mines will easily outlast French with access to 3 mines, all they have to do is hold until France runs out of gold. This makes Dutch a civ that will generally rely on defender’s advantage in early fortress and aim for the mid to late game, despite their units not scaling very well.

Dutch, being a defensive eco civ, require some good adaptation. With this civ, it’s very important to scout frequently in order to know if your opponent is ageing up or going for a timing in colonial. It’s therefore hard to describe a build that you can stick to, as you should be changing it based on your opponent’s play. For this reason I will focus more on what your long term plan should be and how to cut corners to get as many banks up as possible while not ageing up too late.

Sending 700g to age up isn’t very popular with Dutch, but it should be. Sure, banks gather gold pretty quickly but your age up will still be significantly faster if you send gold and put most of your vills on food. This can be game changing, use this shipment wisely! (And no, don’t use 700f).

Remember to use walls. A well placed wall with a gate in it can shield your skirms from cav almost indefinitely while you pick off musks. If you want to be really thorough about it, you can even build an entire cage for your skirms to hide in. This is a technique that shouldn’t be underestimated, and is possibly necessary in some match ups as Dutch. After all, if you want to hold without walls and still age up, you’re going to need a lot of units which will significantly hinder your booming potential. Remember, the Dutch eco takes a big investment, so ageing up ánd booming means you will have a lot less units than your opponent.


The Dutch build

You’re going to want to get a TP up if you started with 200w. Chop another 100w for a house.
(1) 3v

Despite chopping 100w you should still always be able to age with 15 vills. If you started with an extra food crate (so no TP) you can even aim for a 14v age up (colonial at 3.40), getting the last 100 gold largely from treasures. With an extra gold crate and food treasures, this is also possible.

If you went for the early TP, consider sending 300w after 3v for a bank during age up. This is largely untested because I don't like to play Dutch much but I do know that you get your first colonial shipment on time if you do this. In theory, it should be worth it.

Your first real choice is immediately an important one. Are you going for a quick bank boom or are you starting 1 bank + military building? The quick boom is generally better if you’re not being pressured in early colonial and/or if you aged up with 14v, it obviously gets your economy up quicker but will have units out later. It’s also more versatile because it gives you the choice of either going for 2 military buildings quickly or going for 3 banks and 1 military building. For the sake of being thorough, I’ll briefly describe the 1 bank start even though it’s only viable against the fastest of rushes:

Gather 350-350 during age up and build a bank. If you don’t have enough XP for a shipment as you hit colonial, get the bank up asap (build with 4v) to speed up your shipment.
(2) Bank wagon
(3) 700w (or 8 pike?)
If you need anticav: If you started rax, build pikes from 700w. If stable, send 8 pikes instead of 700w. Mind housing and note that sending 8 pikes is inefficient; you should probably have started rax in this situation.

In the future, I’m assuming you started with a quick bank boom. Keep in mind though that the strategic principles covered in the next part also apply to the bank wagon start.
(2) 700w

If you scout a colonial build from your opponent and you’re not in a position to age up against it (even with walls), you’re going to have to stay colonial a while longer. Your goal is not killing them in colonial although in some match ups you do have strong timings if they decide to age up before you. Ultimately (and this is an advisable mindset to have as Dutch in any situation) your goal is getting enough of an army out to age up safely.

Depending on how many resources you already have when you start ageing you can either choose to gather 350-350 and get the bank up asap or to gather just 300w and wait for the age up wood to make 700. Either way you’ll use the 400w from age up for another bank, so you’ll have 2 banks early.

From the 700w you can build another bank, a military building and 2 houses (in this case chop 50w if you didn’t gather 350-350), or you can build 2 military buildings and 3 houses. Obviously, the first is more eco-heavy while the second allows for a quick huss+skirm combo and doesn’t spend another 350f on economy, allowing for a bigger mass.
Another variation is building 2 raxes instead of rax+stable and going for dual rax skirm. Your next shipment in that case will be 600w for market/TP and some pikes if necessary, and then 700g to age up. This will beat infantry-based timing pushes but obviously neglects economy somewhat since you'll be ageing up with 2 banks.

If at any point you are thinking you probably need to stay colonial a while longer and can afford to send an eco shipment, send bank wagon. This can enable you to outmass your opponent in colonial in the long run, giving you a chance to age up. Note that squeezing in a TP from 600w is always viable if you don’t really need the wood for anything else.

(3) 600w
(4) 700g (age up if possible)
Or
(3) 8 pike
(4) 700g (age up if possible)
Or even
(3) 700g (quick age up)
(4) 8 pike
Note that with good building placement including walls, you can still be relatively safe against most timings.

In early fortress, send 1000w if you can. Build another bank from it if you can. Upgrade your hussars. Skirm ruyter is nice in theory but in practice it gets countered by skirm+cav, and you're going to want something to tank melee hits. Remember, a 3 unit combo is far superior to a 2 unit combo, and is much harder to counter.
If your opponent is somehow still colonial while you're in fortress, going cannons is often viable. After all in colonial, dealing with art is very tough. Using halbs to shield the art can be worth it, and don't overdo it with the anticav. If they have 50 ashi against 3 cannons and 30 ruyters, you're going to lose that fight. It doesn't hurt at all to mix in a couple of skirms.
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23 Feb 2017, 19:13

I would never do 14 vill age up on RE as dutch. It is too fast, you rarely can get a bank up before hitting age 2, due to how much faster you age and how much less income you have in transition. 15v is almost always better, except if you are in a matchup where you really need to get your stable/rax up early to not die.

Also, sending 700c to age as dutch is sub-optimal. Better to just do wagon-700w-600w or 700w-wagon-600w.
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Poland pecelot
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23 Feb 2017, 22:21

@Rikikipu tell him why a 14v-age-up is a no-brainer with Dutch :chinese:
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23 Feb 2017, 22:29

Opinion Jerom: Ignore all the bullshit about TP, 700g and never do 14 vill age up.

1) In practise TP just doesn't work out. We can theoretically claim that TPs are awesome and write a whole guide about it, but in practise its just worse. You don't need a TP at all for any builds. If you get to do your thing as dutch you're in a good position, an additional TP is not flexible enough imo. That's in general, in specific cases yes a TP can work out but on a 200w start I would normally advise to ignore the TP advice.
2) 700g is decent, but "not used as often as it should be used" is simply not correct. 600w is so much better, you're going to age up with 40 military pop and zero market upgrades if you don't ship 600w. For niche builds 700g is decent and it's decent to ship after the standard shipments to try to squeeze in an age up in later stages.
3) 14 villager age up is useless. You get your shipment when you finish your bank. You're not going to finish your bank faster if you do a 14 vill age up while you are aging faster, and in general the bank is almost too late most of the time if you do 15 vill age up. You have zero flexibility, you can't decide to still do a 15 vill age up like other civs can because your vills dont cost food. Just do 15 vill age ups and don't take the risk.

Also I feel like making ruyter falc is almost always suboptimal. Only against Brits and Japan could a few falcs be worth it I think.

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23 Feb 2017, 23:03

1) agreed
2) Disagree for the most part, 600w is better if you really have the time to send it. I remember you argued with veni about this subject on stream one day after getting shreckt by musk hus by sending 600w while intending to age xD
3) Agreed. 14 vills only when you get an insane age 1 with like 50g 140f and 100xp kinda start
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23 Feb 2017, 23:06

macacoalbino wrote:1) agreed
2) Disagree for the most part, 600w is better if you really have the time to send it. I remember you argued with veni about this subject on stream one day after getting shreckt by musk hus by sending 600w while intending to age xD
3) Agreed. 14 vills only when you get an insane age 1 with like 50g 140f and 100xp kinda start

That argument was not really about that as much as it was veni completely not understanding what I was even trying to say. 700g is just useless, you're going to be spending it on wood at the market.

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23 Feb 2017, 23:08

maybe a part of it, but hardly more than 300w... its better than waiting to age with a bunch of wood stockpiled if the opponent is doing a fast timing
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23 Feb 2017, 23:15

while 700g is not bad, in the best case scenario you have /40 pop, a barracks and a stable, and in worse scenarios you dont even have a barracks/stable or market. You're going to need 4 houses, so 600w is so much more value. Maybe real occasionally I'd send 700g over 600w, but I think gs's comments are just incorrect. This is a very basic guide for dutch, while 700g is a very specific shipment.

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23 Feb 2017, 23:43

thats true! but you still want to use it in a good number of MUs when you need that boost to ageup faster
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24 Feb 2017, 00:42

Well when you ship 700c, you will almost always have more than 300c in bank, so a lot of the shipment can end up being useless. 700f is arguably better if you are trying to age quickly, but still nowhere near as good as 600w.

I suppose you could do some build with no 600w where you try to age a fair bit faster, and then just ship 1k wood, but that doesn't seem that good to me.
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24 Feb 2017, 00:54

Youre thinking way too greedy man. if you ship the coin your goal is to have age 3 units faster, not shipping extra wood later

Also you cant argue that a mismacro is a reason not to ship a certain resource, you just have to account for that in your vill distribution.
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24 Feb 2017, 01:05

macacoalbino wrote:thats true! but you still want to use it in a good number of MUs when you need that boost to ageup faster

I would only be able to name one mu like that where I consider it sorta viable, and thats because im shipping 1000w in age three but dont need the extra 600w.

The reasoning behind what shipment to send when is far more complicated than just '700g speeds up the age up'. 700g would only be a consideration if you do bank wagon - 700w with 3 banks and only do 5 hussar. But in that case you dont actually have much to win by going faster because the shipment timings dont line up. You age with a precise timing catered towards having that next shipment ready when you age. 700g doesnt really speed that up and you can make skirms in age 2 anyways. Thus its much better to go for the value of 600w (1200 vs versus ~1000 vs for 700c).

Also I think in the non greedy case 8 pikes with skirms is a much better addition actually. I do like doing 700g after a bit of extended age 2 play or even as a card to fuel an age 2 timing push.

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24 Feb 2017, 01:06

I do like doing 700g after a bit of extended age 2 play or even as a card to fuel an age 2 timing push.

I agree with this part, but you can do some 700w 700g kinda build that actually works and indeed you dont get a faster shipment by shipping gold with std play but you do get the skirm veterancy and real anticav faster
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24 Feb 2017, 01:22

macacoalbino wrote:Youre thinking way too greedy man. if you ship the coin your goal is to have age 3 units faster, not shipping extra wood later

Also you cant argue that a mismacro is a reason not to ship a certain resource, you just have to account for that in your vill distribution.

4 banks generate 440 coin while the shipment is being sent, and you will normally need an extra 60 coin for the 2 vills you will be training, but that means that you will have like 20 vills on food, which means that you will prolly have either a lot of extra food or extra coin. You could just have a few vills on coin to buy some wood for houses, and that would prolly fix your macro issues, but why not just send 600w and not buy wood instead.
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24 Feb 2017, 01:33

Darwin_ wrote:
macacoalbino wrote:Youre thinking way too greedy man. if you ship the coin your goal is to have age 3 units faster, not shipping extra wood later

Also you cant argue that a mismacro is a reason not to ship a certain resource, you just have to account for that in your vill distribution.

4 banks generate 440 coin while the shipment is being sent, and you will normally need an extra 60 coin for the 2 vills you will be training, but that means that you will have like 20 vills on food, which means that you will prolly have either a lot of extra food or extra coin. You could just have a few vills on coin to buy some wood for houses, and that would prolly fix your macro issues, but why not just send 600w and not buy wood instead.


wait how do you expect to have 4 banks before 600w?
Also you wont float res if you spend it on units/market ups/housing/banks. Dutch is always tight with its res in colonial, always trying to squeeze in more eco ...so how do you get spare coin or food?
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24 Feb 2017, 01:39

macacoalbino wrote:
Darwin_ wrote:
macacoalbino wrote:Youre thinking way too greedy man. if you ship the coin your goal is to have age 3 units faster, not shipping extra wood later

Also you cant argue that a mismacro is a reason not to ship a certain resource, you just have to account for that in your vill distribution.

4 banks generate 440 coin while the shipment is being sent, and you will normally need an extra 60 coin for the 2 vills you will be training, but that means that you will have like 20 vills on food, which means that you will prolly have either a lot of extra food or extra coin. You could just have a few vills on coin to buy some wood for houses, and that would prolly fix your macro issues, but why not just send 600w and not buy wood instead.


wait how do you expect to have 4 banks before 600w?
Also you wont float res if you spend it on units/market ups/housing/banks. Dutch is always tight with its res in colonial, always trying to squeeze in more eco ...so how do you get spare coin or food?

Well you cant do market if you dont do 600w. 4 banks is ez, 1 in trans, bank wagon + 2 on 700w. 700c is just bad.
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24 Feb 2017, 02:20

"700c is just bad." - I bet you have it in every single dutch deck you have though lol.

"1 in trans, bank wagon + 2 on 700w" - true, there's that build i had forgotten. My point is that the coin can be good when you're not able to go for 4 banks, think about a musk hus timing while you aim to get to fortress soon...

"Well you cant do market if you dont do 700w" - is there any time you dont ship 700w at all?
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24 Feb 2017, 02:25

macacoalbino wrote:"700c is just bad." - I bet you have it in every single dutch deck you have though lol.

"1 in trans, bank wagon + 2 on 700w" - true, there's that build i had forgotten. My point is that the coin can be good when you're not able to go for 4 banks, think about a musk hus timing while you aim to get to fortress soon...

"Well you cant do market if you dont do 700w" - is there any time you dont ship 700w at all?

1. I only have 700c in deck for troll rushes
2. Well RE dutch is just kinda weak to colonial timing pushes whatever you do.
3. sry meant to say 600w
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24 Feb 2017, 02:31

You can make a market on 700w by cutting a bank and doing some market ups. You get less eco but more extra wood to make a 2nd military building or more housing. Thats when i do 700c mostly. :P
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24 Feb 2017, 02:33

Well regardless, I think that, at least with how the meta is right now, 700c is not a good shipment to send.
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24 Feb 2017, 02:35

With that I agree.
The point is that 700c is not at all useless like most ppl seem to think
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24 Feb 2017, 03:41

Darwin_ wrote:I would never do 14 vill age up on RE as dutch. It is too fast, you rarely can get a bank up before hitting age 2, due to how much faster you age and how much less income you have in transition. 15v is almost always better, except if you are in a matchup where you really need to get your stable/rax up early to not die.

Also, sending 700c to age as dutch is sub-optimal. Better to just do wagon-700w-600w or 700w-wagon-600w.

Well it depends, if you got 100c start plus if you find some gold treasure, you can sometimes age with 14v without being idled. Below Major level it's definitely viable, without any doubts. 700c is not suboptimal as dutch btw, it allows you to make a perfect 3banks FF as GS mentioned. You'll need to shop wood during transi to III ofc then.
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24 Feb 2017, 08:53

macacoalbino wrote:"700c is just bad." - I bet you have it in every single dutch deck you have though lol.

it doesn't have to mean anything, you have to fill the slots with something
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24 Feb 2017, 09:29

I have both 700f 700g in my deck. They are both available in some sitations.

Let me introduce a wise bo against japan, designed by a rising star among Chinese players, our tactical master, leader of our clan, General Kan:
Age up 15p. Build market for hunting dog in age 1. (Buy 100w if you don't have 200w start.)
Chop for a market during transtion. And an extra 25w.
Build stable+house, and steel trap with 400w. Send 700w first. You can train about 3 hussars in the 1st batch, well, it' enough to catch japanese heroes.
With 700w, go rax, house*5 (or you can train a batch of pike too).
The 2nd shipment would be 700g. Go hussar+skirm combo. Kite his units.
After that you can send 8pike 3hus for constant pressure, or 600w 700f wagon for eco play/age up.

Kan's theory:
1. Shrines are far better than banks. So the more banks you build, the sooner you'll lose.
2. Dutch can age up 30s faster than japan. Skirms are hard counter to ashigaru, and hussar beat yumi. Also, hussar beat naginata too. Mass hussar+some skirm should be the right option against colonial japan.
I tried his BO and really beat some captain/1st lt japan. What a genius!
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24 Feb 2017, 13:04

Rikikipu wrote:
Darwin_ wrote:I would never do 14 vill age up on RE as dutch. It is too fast, you rarely can get a bank up before hitting age 2, due to how much faster you age and how much less income you have in transition. 15v is almost always better, except if you are in a matchup where you really need to get your stable/rax up early to not die.

Also, sending 700c to age as dutch is sub-optimal. Better to just do wagon-700w-600w or 700w-wagon-600w.

Well it depends, if you got 100c start plus if you find some gold treasure, you can sometimes age with 14v without being idled. Below Major level it's definitely viable, without any doubts. 700c is not suboptimal as dutch btw, it allows you to make a perfect 3banks FF as GS mentioned. You'll need to shop wood during transi to III ofc then.

It isnt really the idle time that I am concerned with. I am concerned with when the bank gets up, which is almost never before you hit age 2, most of the time like 10-20 seconds later. This means that your first colonial shipment never comes substantially faster with 14v up compared to the 15v up.
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