[GoodSpeed's 3.0 TAD Guide] Dutch

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Re: [GoodSpeed's 3.0 TAD Guide] Dutch

Post by momuuu »

macacoalbino wrote:"700c is just bad." - I bet you have it in every single dutch deck you have though lol.

"1 in trans, bank wagon + 2 on 700w" - true, there's that build i had forgotten. My point is that the coin can be good when you're not able to go for 4 banks, think about a musk hus timing while you aim to get to fortress soon...

"Well you cant do market if you dont do 700w" - is there any time you dont ship 700w at all?

I would strongly argue theres a build order (700w 8 pikes 600w) that decimates musk huss, and that bank wagon 700w 700c is not going to beat a musk huss timing at all. Something like Bank wagon 700w 8 pikes 600w 700c might though and thats where 700c is good, but not earlier I think except if you're shipping 1000w against a faster civ and feel like you'd die doing 600w + 1000w.

It's the hard thing about Dutch guides, the civ is so inflexible and has so many weaknesses by nature that any build order can only realistically be discussed in extreme detail.
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Re: [GoodSpeed's 3.0 TAD Guide] Dutch

Post by macacoalbino »

pecelot wrote:
macacoalbino wrote:"700c is just bad." - I bet you have it in every single dutch deck you have though lol.

it doesn't have to mean anything, you have to fill the slots with something


he sounded like it would be bad all the time then why bother putting it in instead of an upgrade or a card in another age or something?

@fei123456 cool BO I'll try it out some time. It feels like winning as dutch vs japan always require some sort of cheesing in the BO hahaha

I usually start skirm pressure with 8 pikes to siege, then do a hus transition at the 3rd colonial card (either 3hus or 700g depending on how all in you are) its nice when they open with rax because skirms will outrange the yumis, but i can almost never win if they start nagis :sad:
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Re: [GoodSpeed's 3.0 TAD Guide] Dutch

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Post by lordraphael »

Darwin_ wrote:
macacoalbino wrote:"700c is just bad." - I bet you have it in every single dutch deck you have though lol.

"1 in trans, bank wagon + 2 on 700w" - true, there's that build i had forgotten. My point is that the coin can be good when you're not able to go for 4 banks, think about a musk hus timing while you aim to get to fortress soon...

"Well you cant do market if you dont do 700w" - is there any time you dont ship 700w at all?

1. I only have 700c in deck for troll rushes
2. Well RE dutch is just kinda weak to colonial timing pushes whatever you do.
3. sry meant to say 600w

700 coin is probably stilla better card than 700 food even for dutch. At least Im sending 700 g far more often than 700 food
breeze wrote: they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
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Re: [GoodSpeed's 3.0 TAD Guide] Dutch

Post by Darwin_ »

Rapha with the logic
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Re: [GoodSpeed's 3.0 TAD Guide] Dutch

Post by momuuu »

As Dutch its a bit more interesting. 700f is usually more efficient to age up, and the difference in villager seconds is not that large (833 vs for food and 1014 for coin) so I think it's kinda close but I do slightly prefer 700 coin.
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Re: [GoodSpeed's 3.0 TAD Guide] Dutch

Post by fei123456 »

Darwin_ wrote:
Rikikipu wrote:
Darwin_ wrote:I would never do 14 vill age up on RE as dutch. It is too fast, you rarely can get a bank up before hitting age 2, due to how much faster you age and how much less income you have in transition. 15v is almost always better, except if you are in a matchup where you really need to get your stable/rax up early to not die.

Also, sending 700c to age as dutch is sub-optimal. Better to just do wagon-700w-600w or 700w-wagon-600w.

Well it depends, if you got 100c start plus if you find some gold treasure, you can sometimes age with 14v without being idled. Below Major level it's definitely viable, without any doubts. 700c is not suboptimal as dutch btw, it allows you to make a perfect 3banks FF as GS mentioned. You'll need to shop wood during transi to III ofc then.

It isnt really the idle time that I am concerned with. I am concerned with when the bank gets up, which is almost never before you hit age 2, most of the time like 10-20 seconds later. This means that your first colonial shipment never comes substantially faster with 14v up compared to the 15v up.

you should consider treasures.
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Re: [GoodSpeed's 3.0 TAD Guide] Dutch

Post by Darwin_ »

Couprider wrote:
Darwin_ wrote:
Show hidden quotes

It isnt really the idle time that I am concerned with. I am concerned with when the bank gets up, which is almost never before you hit age 2, most of the time like 10-20 seconds later. This means that your first colonial shipment never comes substantially faster with 14v up compared to the 15v up.

you should consider treasures.

Considering treasures when it comes to comparing builds is not a good thing to do. Treasures totally vary from map to map, and they are not a guaranteed source of income.
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Re: [GoodSpeed's 3.0 TAD Guide] Dutch

Post by momuuu »

Couprider wrote:
Darwin_ wrote:
Show hidden quotes

It isnt really the idle time that I am concerned with. I am concerned with when the bank gets up, which is almost never before you hit age 2, most of the time like 10-20 seconds later. This means that your first colonial shipment never comes substantially faster with 14v up compared to the 15v up.

you should consider treasures.

Except that you cannot consider treasures before commiting to a 14 villager age up, so you shouldn't really consider treasures.

In rare cases a 14 villager age up might be a very small amount better. I think it screws you over more frequently.
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Re: [GoodSpeed's 3.0 TAD Guide] Dutch

Post by momuuu »

Honestly the 15 villager age up is already way too tight. It's super hard to get the bank up in time and have enough coin to queue up a new villager. I just fail to see how 14 villagers would consistently be better in any case except with great treasures.
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Re: [GoodSpeed's 3.0 TAD Guide] Dutch

Post by Hazza54321 »

I prefer 700f to 700g on re maps because it preserves ur hunts longer, similarly as german on silk road i like to send 700g to age up rather than gathering it because u only have 2 mines
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Re: [GoodSpeed's 3.0 TAD Guide] Dutch

Post by gibson »

Jerom wrote:
Couprider wrote:
Show hidden quotes

you should consider treasures.

Except that you cannot consider treasures before commiting to a 14 villager age up, so you shouldn't really consider treasures.

In rare cases a 14 villager age up might be a very small amount better. I think it screws you over more frequently.
there's no way it screws you up more than a 15 vil age up lol. It may not be better cause you often are gonna be getting your bank up at a similar time but you're also getting your 400w faster and gathering 100 less res in age one which more than makes up for having 1 less vil in transition
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Re: [GoodSpeed's 3.0 TAD Guide] Dutch

Post by momuuu »

Well what happens is that you will have more TC idle time so in the long run it's worse in that sense. And having the 400w faster doesn't really do much since you're bound to other resource income for getting a bank or 5 hussar batch.
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Re: [GoodSpeed's 3.0 TAD Guide] Dutch

Post by macacoalbino »

thing is... you dont really need to age faster as dutch because your ageup time is already one of the fastest and ageing with 14v has little to no upside most of the times. If stars align perfectly you might do it, but its really rare that you wanna go for it.
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Re: [GoodSpeed's 3.0 TAD Guide] Dutch

Post by momuuu »

And once again, the decision has to be made at 0:30 or something to do so.
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Re: [GoodSpeed's 3.0 TAD Guide] Dutch

Post by lordraphael »

15> 14 vill in almost all cases. Like youd have to get like 160 wood with treasures or eat up like 5 cows to make a 14 vill up worth it.
breeze wrote: they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.

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