civ rules for twc tourney are dumb

No Flag thakronickid420
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civ rules for twc tourney are dumb

Post by thakronickid420 »

thats all i have to say. cant even pick a twc civ after you lose to counter
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Re: civ rules for twc tourney are dumb

Post by thakronickid420 »

its the twc tourney!
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Re: civ rules for twc tourney are dumb

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Post by jj0823 »

Thank you for your thoughtful contribution
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Re: civ rules for twc tourney are dumb

Post by vardar »

Very thoughtful header 10/10
c0ns!
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Re: civ rules for twc tourney are dumb

Post by kami_ryu »

You could put a little more thought / effort into this post, I think.
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Re: civ rules for twc tourney are dumb

Post by deleted_user0 »

Well hes right. And hes not the only one who voiced this criticism, and there has been no reply to anyone yet. Its just pretty silly to be honest
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Re: civ rules for twc tourney are dumb

Post by JakeyBoyTH »

Most of the tournament admins are pretty busy with irl stuff, but we will see about it for the next rounds if we have time. IMO this round has just been a cakewalk for pro players and it's not very nice to see that stream-wise because its like 20 minutes of stream and i'm like omg. I think we will see much more strategic gameplay that you might get some ideas from later on in the tournament. TWC civs are hardly explored often and I wouldn't be surprised if we see some new meta.
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Re: civ rules for twc tourney are dumb

Post by Mr_Bramboy »

I will take your constructive criticism into account.

In all seriousness, contact H2O with serious inquiries and he might reply. He's very busy. These civilization rules were created by H2O and diarouga.
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Re: civ rules for twc tourney are dumb

Post by BrookG »

I disagree with the seeding process. Ik it is a smaller tourney, but these first games were too short and probably easy for the good players.
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Re: civ rules for twc tourney are dumb

Post by JakeyBoyTH »

BrookG wrote:I disagree with the seeding process. Ik it is a smaller tourney, but these first games were too short and probably easy for the good players.

On one hand we could have even elo seeding with longer games for longer RO64 - this would mean half of the pro players will not make it past RO64. Other, more important games such as > R08 may be walkovers as lower tier players will eventually be match up with pros anyway.

It's certainly a trade-off. We would like to have the best of both worlds - even seeding and even representation of pro players in latter rounds. What we dont want is to see a finals-like game e.g LordRaph vs H2O in RO64 instead of the finals.
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Re: civ rules for twc tourney are dumb

Post by BrookG »

I get this for sure, later games have higher stakes and it wouldn't be fair. Maybe some point earning round when you would have to play against a certain amount of players and PRs. Although, this would lead to more games, hence harder scheduling and streaming.
Correlation doesn't mean causation.
http://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations

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Re: civ rules for twc tourney are dumb

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Post by wardyb1 »

All though for streaming it isn't ideal, the first games should be stomps really. The highest variance in skill should be on show hence the games should be rather one sided. The solution isn't to have worse players play worse players and better v better. It's to realise that it's how tourneys work and hopefully the less experienced players learn something from the experience and maybe enjoy getting to play someone of a skill lvl they would almost never face not in a tourney.
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Re: civ rules for twc tourney are dumb

Post by BrookG »

wardyb1 wrote:All though for streaming it isn't ideal, the first games should be stomps really. The highest variance in skill should be on show hence the games should be rather one sided. The solution isn't to have worse players play worse players and better v better. It's to realise that it's how tourneys work and hopefully the less experienced players learn something from the experience and maybe enjoy getting to play someone of a skill lvl they would almost never face not in a tourney.

It is unavoidable to have stomps indeed. Why not a moderate/bad player play both equal and pro players? Not necessarily as a group stage, which is rather hard to organise, but more like a pool player, when you can pick or force(?) someone to play with. If you win a number of games you pass the next round.

It is more viable to try different tournament approaches in smaller events than the main ones.
Correlation doesn't mean causation.
http://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations

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Re: civ rules for twc tourney are dumb

Post by DaRkNiTe1698 »

Signing up on a tournament and then complain about the rules is completely nonsense to me
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Re: civ rules for twc tourney are dumb

Post by BrookG »

DaRkNiTe1698 wrote:Signing up on a tournament and then complain about the rules is completely nonsense to me

fyi i haven't signed up, but why not brainstorm and give feedback. We don't ask them to be changed immediately, we politely discuss
Correlation doesn't mean causation.
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Re: civ rules for twc tourney are dumb

Post by deleted_user0 »

Mr_Bramboy wrote:I will take your constructive criticism into account.

In all seriousness, contact H2O with serious inquiries and he might reply. He's very busy. These civilization rules were created by H2O and diarouga.


Lol...
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Re: civ rules for twc tourney are dumb

Post by Imperial Noob »

The thing is, the games between players on a more equal (i.e. both low) footing are not streamed, because they are some unknown individuals. If you stream only the good players and "whatever" they might face in the first rounds, a noobstomp will be the only logical result.
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Re: civ rules for twc tourney are dumb

Post by gamevideo113 »

Civ rules are fine imo. I think they prevent counterpicking to an extent and they encourage players to play underplayed civs like the spanish.
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stupid logic. noob players can say op?
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Re: civ rules for twc tourney are dumb

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Post by _H2O »

What would you do? Need some solutions rather than just vague unhappy comments.

I put a fair amount of thought into how to make a tournament which would feature most of the TWC matchups without being easy to abuse matchup issues.

Seeding has to be done as it is. And we have group stages and preseeding players ahead. We also have a second chance on main events. It gives non-top players tons of chances to play equal games.

Smaller tournaments do not have either of those measures in place, but I do think we have a good answer to getting the "LCM" players a better experience.
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Re: civ rules for twc tourney are dumb

Post by BrookG »

I respect all that effort and thank you for that. However, I strongly believe that the argument about lower level players having the chance to play versus higher ones is irrelevant. A pr20 has almost zero chances against a pr29. Why look forward into playing a 20min series? Indeed the side tournaments do cover that -still not to a satisfactory level, but that's a different topic.

What I propose is to design a setting, which gives the opportunity to all to play against all and after a number of wins to be seeded next round:
1. It doesn't abandon lowPR-highPR games, because of the group that supports the above statement.
2. Better players can enjoy playing more competitive games early on
3. No need to waste streaming time in all games of the round.
@H2O_ If you want I could plan this more carefully and send you a more thorough plan. It sounds too complicated now, I know.
Correlation doesn't mean causation.
http://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations

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Re: civ rules for twc tourney are dumb

Post by _H2O »

Sure I would be interested to hear about this idea.
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Re: civ rules for twc tourney are dumb

Post by Hidddy_ »

Every time there are some balance changes H2O comments that although minor, they can have huge impacts on high level gameplay. My point in saying this is that as players we need to adapt to these changes. Also, you should take into account that the rules were made for high level play by high level players in the same way that EP changes are made. So if you're having trouble with some matchups, try something different, tweak your strats until they're just right, have backup strategies in case something specific happens in a mu u practiced, don't just think you can play these civs the same way you do on qs and get easy wins.
Judging by your underdeveloped post, you probably haven't given enough thought and time to these civ rules to devise coherent arguments about the civ (in)balance.
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Re: civ rules for twc tourney are dumb

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Post by Snuden »

At my level we don't bother with civ advantages, we just happily noob along as we have always done. 21.
I think the idea for this tournament is pretty cool and I look forward to see skilled players play against each other.

As I understand it, it is the first time such a tournament is being held, so obviously there will be room for improvement(s)
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Re: civ rules for twc tourney are dumb

Post by thakronickid420 »

i was just voicing an opinion. i get the catering to higher level players i guess, but honestly its the twc tournament and you corner someone into picking one of three civs all of which arent a twc civ. In the end doesnt seem logical to me.
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Re: civ rules for twc tourney are dumb

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Post by princeofkabul »

BrookG wrote:I respect all that effort and thank you for that. However, I strongly believe that the argument about lower level players having the chance to play versus higher ones is irrelevant. A pr20 has almost zero chances against a pr29. Why look forward into playing a 20min series? Indeed the side tournaments do cover that -still not to a satisfactory level, but that's a different topic.

What I propose is to design a setting, which gives the opportunity to all to play against all and after a number of wins to be seeded next round:
1. It doesn't abandon lowPR-highPR games, because of the group that supports the above statement.
2. Better players can enjoy playing more competitive games early on
3. No need to waste streaming time in all games of the round.
@H2O_ If you want I could plan this more carefully and send you a more thorough plan. It sounds too complicated now, I know.


makes no sense to have "pro" players go vs eachother early on imo. No top player cares enough to even prepare themselves vs eachother if they'd proceed to next state in amount of wins they gained. They would stomp any lowbob easily and proceed no matter what. Just my opinion though, I wouldn't care to play vs another top level player myself in early stage when there are a group of sergeants in the tournament
let's be honest, it is a tournament with a prize pool, there shouldn't be a spot for random nonamers. tournament should have the best players possible. lucky me that i had decent elo enough that i don't have to play couple of 5 min games against a ms. However, there could be a tournament for lowbobs aswell like 2nd chance or LCM invitational. Without prize pool. ( having almost to witness gua winning 100 bucks in previous one for not being anywhere near to top)

I'd like to add aswell that it would be painfully boring to play versus a low level player over and over again to get the ticket to the next stage, the result who gets there is pretty obvious afterall. I like the current tournament setting where you have to play 1 or 2 games vs low lvl players and then proceed vs better and better. The scheduling in your format would be very painful, if you have to schedule many games just to puma rush someone in azz mirror ( kaiser ) or having to play under 8 minute games twice vs 15 pr lower than you ( somppu ). It's just not fun for a good player, and neither fun for a lower lvl player to get absolutely trashed...
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