Poll: How do you feel about The Basement's posts on ESOC forums?

[momuuu]

I think all in all they are Callen.

I think by the same token that Ryan may rage out of a tournament and be excused with his contributions well taken and being at the top that those basement member be graced by that same luxury. I think Ryan is awesome and fundamental to the success for Esoc before and after that event (and no ban considered). Though Cheddar and Ear contributions do not match close to Ryan or are similar in the way they contribute but what they add to the Aoe3 community is overwhelming positive even if some posts are considered by taste by some admin.

Actually they mostly add targetted trolling of some members and continuous attacks on the moderators.

[Mad_Hound]

I think when we should be regarded as adults when we have an opinion on material Jerom. We have opinions based on facts and evidence. We have differing opinions on those facts and evidence. To have to explain that toward the cloud you sit on when it comes to these affairs is a bit much don't you think?

I'm off to go back back to the real world now so go and rebutle what you want. My point was made.

[momuuu]

I think when we should be regarded as adults when we have an opinion on material Jerom. We have opinions based on facts and evidence. We have differing opinions on those facts and evidence. To have to explain that toward the cloud you sit on when it comes to these affairs is a bit much don't you think?

I'm off to go back back to the real world now so go and rebutle what you want. My point was made.

I mean, it seems weird for you to pretend you even have access to facts? You only guess some things by judging from the outside? Maybe I have actually moderated and monitored them, aswell as read current moderation reports? Thats why these public discussions are always silly.

[Mad_Hound]

One and final add in:
I do certainly value your contributions to Esoc and the lot that you do Jerom. I do not think you are a bad person or Aoe personality. I just disagree on this subject.

[Mad_Hound]

***Argument from Authority***

... The more you know, the more you grow ; )

[aligator92]

This poll is too black and white

TTM Tourny, Podcast, Telethon, Tip of the Day/Week are all good content and easy to avoid if you do not enjoy them.
Mindless annoying and picking on people for the sake of being annoying or whatever they claim has no place here and impossile to avoid.

So they should be allowed back and thrown out if they start behaving like this again. The Telethon has proven that they can provide great content so there should be absolutely no reason why they cannot behave and treat other forum members and threads with a certain respect.

[Snuden]

Where can I read posts from the basement?

[gh0st]

I never really understood why they are banned in the first place. Ok they troll a lot and target some people (jerom mostly), but I can think of lots of people on this forum who do that more than the basement guys and arnt banned.
And about their content, I personally have nothing against them, but I don't really enjoy their personal life content etc at all.

[noissance]

nvm

[Vinyanyérë]

@cblack @gh0st When you say that there are "lots of people" or "many others" who are as bad or worse, can you be more specific about who you are referring to and what posts they've made that would lead you to this view? I'm not saying that I agree or disagree; rather, that saying that "lots of people" fall under this category doesn't give us anything to work with, while saying something like "Crooked Callen made these posts which are at least as bad as what the Basement has done" is extremely useful. If for any reason you do not want to post evidence publicly here, feel free to send it to me over PM.

@XeeleeFlower @Dolan @aligator92 @gh0st You've all said very roughly that some of their posts are over the line, either because they make a targeted effort to troll and annoy certain users or because they make low-quality blog posts. Do you have any ideas in mind for how they could be brought onto the forum while also kept from making too many low-quality posts? I've thought of things like establishing a limit to the number of posts they're allowed to make per day/week/month or a minimum content requirement for new threads, but I want to hear your ideas. As far as trolling other users goes, what actions do you think should be taken against somebody who does so?

Disclaimer: The above does not necessarily reflect the views of the ESOC Staff or the ESOC Community Team. None of the above should be interpreted as indication of any future action that the ESOC Staff or ESOC Community Team may take.

[noissance]

Perhaps a 5 point poll would be more appropriate (Strongly agree, agree, neutral, disagree, strongly disagree)

[noissance]

This seems like a wise decision.

Can you or someone put up a list of the basement's negatives to inform the website of their downsides? (specific examples)

[aligator92]

Just tell them to not make pointless posts and not attack people but to use PM if they have an actual reason to be disgruntled with somebody. And if they do not improve their behavior just ban them again. They are intelligent enough to understand these instructions

[XeeleeFlower]

At work still, but I will share my thoughts later, since I was asked.

[Gendarme]

Perhaps it is just an issue of differing senses of humor. Shitposts/troll-posts are sometimes funny (e.g. Zutazuta: "The brackets are bugged; Victor_Swe is not in the finals."), sometimes half-funny (e.g. Hazza: "How did Kaiser beat a PR 23?!"), and sometimes boring (i.e. almost exclusively every shitpost/troll-post from members of The Basement). Of course, creating a new thread to shitpost is not the same as any "shitpost" and is actually rather spammy, but disregarding that there is not much sense in warning/banning someone because their "shitposts" are boring.

I suggest introducing a dislike button for the posts, so that the community more easily can share their thoughts (on shitposts especially). If I make a post that elicits a lot of both positive and negative reaction, only the positive feedback is seen, and the 13 likes I get will give the not-necessarily-true impression that it was largely well received.

[bwinner]

How the fuck do 18 people want to bann them ? Oh wait, how many Dutch people are friend with Jerom there ? We should creat a Dutch segregation on this forum, that would avoid a lot of problems

User was warned for this post

[Gendarme]

Apartheid!

[deleted_user]

How the fuck do 18 people want to bann them ? Oh wait, how many Dutch people are friend with Jerom there ? We should creat a Dutch segregation on this forum, that would avoid a lot of problems

This argument, which is grounded in logic, sense, and level-headedness, is sure to facilitate discussion and persuade others towards your opinion on the matter.

[Dolan]

Do you have any ideas in mind for how they could be brought onto the forum while also kept from making too many low-quality posts? I've thought of things like establishing a limit to the number of posts they're allowed to make per day/week/month or a minimum content requirement for new threads, but I want to hear your ideas. As far as trolling other users goes, what actions do you think should be taken against somebody who does so?

Normally, when you moderate you just have to apply the rules. Micromanaging specific persons doesn't make much sense. You're giving yourself more work. But applying the rules is not always a matter of black or white, so the mod needs to be smart and moderate about it.

This is not a new issue, we had the same problem when I was admin and was doing some moderation too, because we had no mods back then. Sometimes we just deleted their posts, sometimes we allowed some of them. It was a compromise that kept everyone content about the situation. We had no illusions that they would change or stop spamming if we just banned them or deleted their posts. I think they will keep doing that, no matter what.

But if you want to use some special methods, you could create a new forum role, like "stfu", and make it impossible for members which are (temporarily) part of that group to post in some parts of the forum (where they are most likely to spam or post inane stuff).

As for trolling and flaming each other, I wouldn't go so far as to police relations between members of the forum. You're not their teachers and they're not classroom brats. As long as it doesn't degenerate into name-calling and urmomsuxdix jokes, it's their business. Some people are always going to have some beef with some others in a community.

[Gichtenlord]

Would it be possible to give them a limited amount of posts? Lets say like 15 posts a week.
That way they cant actually start spamming everywhere and have to use their posts wisely. Maybe it would even force them to be a bit more constructive

[Goodspeed]

Phrasing of the poll options isn't ideal. Not enjoying their content is not the same as wanting them gone. I don't particularly enjoy their posts but am against banning them because their posts are not harmful and they have contributed good content in the past.
Anyway I'm glad staff values the community's opinion in this. Ultimately it should be up to all of us

[Gendarme]

I thought it meant wanting the posts gone (as in your preference, not what should be done by mods).

[Mad_Hound]

Bans are voted on democratically for and against and if so length. Limit on ban length though. The top three most respected Esoc people supervise.

[Vinyanyérë]

Do you have any ideas in mind for how they could be brought onto the forum while also kept from making too many low-quality posts? I've thought of things like establishing a limit to the number of posts they're allowed to make per day/week/month or a minimum content requirement for new threads, but I want to hear your ideas. As far as trolling other users goes, what actions do you think should be taken against somebody who does so?

Normally, when you moderate you just have to apply the rules. Micromanaging specific persons doesn't make much sense. You're giving yourself more work. But applying the rules is not always a matter of black or white, so the mod needs to be smart and moderate about it.

This is not a new issue, we had the same problem when I was admin and was doing some moderation too, because we had no mods back then. Sometimes we just deleted their posts, sometimes we allowed some of them. It was a compromise that kept everyone content about the situation. We had no illusions that they would change or stop spamming if we just banned them or deleted their posts. I think they will keep doing that, no matter what.

But if you want to use some special methods, you could create a new forum role, like "stfu", and make it impossible for members which are (temporarily) part of that group to post in some parts of the forum (where they are most likely to spam or post inane stuff).

As for trolling and flaming each other, I wouldn't go so far as to police relations between members of the forum. You're not their teachers and they're not classroom brats. As long as it doesn't degenerate into name-calling and urmomsuxdix jokes, it's their business.

I might be misinterpreting you, but I'd expect micromanaging the basement to actually reduce the workload here. Applying moderator discretion is my favorite thing in the world, but the reason that this subject is being discussed at all is because there's disagreement about how the discretion was applied. Codifying more specifically what you are and aren't allowed to do (either for everyone or specifically for the Basement) would reduce the need for Comm team members to decide themselves what is and isn't okay. If we, for example, unbanned the Basement with the caveat that they're allowed to make at most two new topics per week collectively, any future question of whether or not we need to take action against them starts with us checking whether or not they've violated an unambiguous rule.

As far as policing relations between users goes, I personally think that there should be some level of monitoring to keep conversation on the forums relatively civil. But wrt the Basement I'm talking more specifically about unwanted attacks from one user to another, which I consider to be separate.

Edit: Disclaimer still applies

[XeeleeFlower]

Do you have any ideas in mind for how they could be brought onto the forum while also kept from making too many low-quality posts?

Define low quality. Is just one sentence low quality? Is it the content of the post? Should each post that any member make be lengthy and/or insightful/philosophical? We are a community. We are a small community. We discuss heavy topics, and we discuss mundane topics. Who decides what is a high quality mundane topic? What about a low quality deep topic? These questions are rhetorical. Does this mean that this is a low quality post?

I've thought of things like establishing a limit to the number of posts they're allowed to make per day/week/month or a minimum content requirement for new threads, but I want to hear your ideas.

Why? It seems a bit unfair to limit the amount of posts that users can make. I don't like this idea at all.

As far as trolling other users goes, what actions do you think should be taken against somebody who does so?

I do not like bullying (is this what you mean by trolling). There is no excuse for it. I don't give a fuck if someone else started it. I don't like people telling people to kill themselves, or hope they get cancer, or that they're the founder of a terrorist group, or that they are corrupt, or that they are a drain on our community, etc. That sort of attitude does not belong here. If there must be some sort of community rule, I would make it that no bullying is accepted. I don't care if people are "joking". I would give a 3 strikes, you're out ultimatum.

Disclaimer: The above does not necessarily reflect the views of the ESOC Staff or the ESOC Community Team. None of the above should be interpreted as indication of any future action that the ESOC Staff or ESOC Community Team may take.

This I like!

Here are my thoughts on moderation in general. I don't much care for it. Certain things call for it, sure, like bullying. See above. However, I really think that we should be able to police ourselves. If members of the community don't like certain topics, then they won't respond to those topics. If people don't get a response, then they will stop posting. Problem solved. Posts that are offensive should be allowed to stay up so that people can see how fucked up that individual's thought is (subjective) and then respond appropriately. There have been several posts that I have read that pissed me off and hurt me (I'm too sensitive, really), but I've never hit that report button because I do not want offending posts to be deleted. I want people to see how others are and how they think. There is also the fact that things may be communicated incorrectly because not all of us speak English as our first language. Additionally, maybe the people who made fucked up posts are ignorant (please don't take offense to this term, I do not mean it in a mean way) about things so maybe they grow and change based upon responses to them.

If the mods don't like the idea of policing ourselves, maybe at the very least, there could be polls done on offending members. Members who have had multiple reports from other users (not just a user or a couple users) could be looked at more closely and if the mods see fit, they could create a poll similar to this one asking the community if a member should be banned and for what length of time.

I think I could go on for awhile about this, but have rambled quite enough. I hope my thoughts were helpful. If not, then I am kindly fucking off now.