To re, or not re: that is the question!

[deleted_user]

I think we can see both decisions have merit! Please, let us better define the rule-set such that similar situations can be resolved with impunity!

[oats13]

I was rooting for LR but he made a human error that was nothing to do with the spawn and felt that the caster should have given GG the option to re on grounds of sportsmanship rather than decide himself- perhaps clarify what is an acceptable range of thing to re for?

[Snuden]

Agree with gibsonsh.

[WickedCossack]

false starting is not comparable because its restarting for the exact opposite reason. You restart a race cause someone has an unfair advantage. This game was restarted because someone was at a fair disadvantage.

My point is they don't disqualify the person who made the mistake.

Are you really going to argue that there is a difference between "person A has an advantage over person B" and "person B has a disadvantage to player A" in a 2 person competition?

In an event with 3 or more people then you'd have a logistics argument but in this case I don't think your argument has any merit?

e.g For example in sailing the effort required to bring 20 people back to the line because one guy didn't have his sail ready is significantly greater than just bringing back the one dude who left a bit early.

[Snuden]

What does that have to do with today's game?
LR made a mistake that most likely would have cost him the game, that's his own fault and his alone.

I thought the 2 min rule was made to allow for a re in case of unfair spawn or hunts.

[Goodspeed]

50-50

[Mr_Bramboy]

Wow, that's quite the write-up. Are you sure you don't want to write some news posts again while you're at it?

ESOC casters, especially streamers, aren't just some vagrants abducted from the slums. All casters are reviewed and judged based on their casting, rationality, and behavior in the past. We've rejected applications based on forum posts before to give an example. I fully trust any caster to make the right decision when it comes to restarts, but we do encourage all casters to discuss the matter in the discord. I do not think the casters have too much authority in enforcing the rules at all.

Raphael paused, explained the situation, and asked for a restart. Goongoon initially and continued to oppose the restart (which was eventually granted by the caster and confirmed by a tournament admin (noel)).

It should be noted that both Jim and I were also online at this time. If there would have been any issues, we would've been informed. Noel and radix handled this fine without our help though. I don't think any mistake was made by the caster or the tournament admins, although I might be a little bit biased. Raphael has the reputation of being a friendly tournament player and he's always been a good sport in scheduling and playing. The thought that he might want to restart based on some bad treasures is not only ridiculous but also offensive to Raphael himself. Theoretically, there are many ways to live on the edge of the rules while not explicitly cheating, but anyone with the spirit of ESOC in mind wouldn't dare to gain an advantage this way. In my eyes, fun and sportsmanship have a priority over the prize pool.

Rules are never flawless and rules are always up to interpretation by the authority. In this case, the initial authority is the caster or the casters, and if they can't come to a conclusion the tournament admins come into play. This is hardly ever needed though since most players can manage to behave and maintain good sportsmanship. Of course, there's one player who has been a pain during tournaments ever since the dawn of time, but I don't think we should be revising any rules or spending too much attention on small details just to accommodate to him.

[WickedCossack]

What does that have to do with today's game?
LR made a mistake that most likely would have cost him the game, that's his own fault and his alone.

I thought the 2 min rule was made to allow for a re in case of unfair spawn or hunts.

Refuting a point that it doesn't happen at all in other sports.

In general most sports would be inclined to allow restarts if i) it was logistically feasible and ii) no advantage was being reset which in 90% of cases one of those points is being broken so we don't.

In circumstances where those are not affected most competitions do seem to allow restarts (horseracing, sailing, athletics etc), just because I guess that's how society works since humans are very cool and like to give everyone a fair shake.

In answer to what does that have to do with today's game I'd say its very feasible logistically to rehost due to the timing and no obvious advantage was being reset.

[gibson]

false starting is not comparable because its restarting for the exact opposite reason. You restart a race cause someone has an unfair advantage. This game was restarted because someone was at a fair disadvantage.

My point is they don't disqualify the person who made the mistake.

Are you really going to argue that there is a difference between "person A has an advantage over person B" and "person B has a disadvantage to player A" in a 2 person competition?

It's not person A has an advantage over person B and person B has a disadvantage to person A, Its person A has an advantage over person B because person A cheated ( false starting), and Person B has a disadvantage to person A because person B made a mistake. Who even cares if you make a mistake in the first 2 minutes than? It's just a free 2 minutes and if you don't like what happens just re. Once again all the examples that you listed of restarting an event are due to people cheating. This case today there was a restart because someone made a mistake. How can you possibly argue that someone should get to restart the game because they made a mistake? That's not in the spirit of competitive play and is unfair to the other player who has to forfeit their advantage for literally no reason. Maybe if this was a magic princess barbie world tournament with small children just trying to have fun it would make sense, but this is a "legitimate tournament" with a 4 digit prize pool that's allowing players to restart when they make massive mistakes.

[gibson]

Refuting a point that it doesn't happen at all in other sports.

In general most sports would be inclined to allow restarts if i) it was logistically feasible and ii) no advantage was being reset which in 90% of cases one of those points is being broken so we don't.

In circumstances where those are not affected most competitions do seem to allow restarts (horseracing, sailing, athletics etc), just because I guess that's how society works since humans are very cool and like to give everyone a fair shake.

In answer to what does that have to do with today's game I'd say its very feasible logistically to rehost due to the timing and no obvious advantage was being reset.

Sorry I should have said no games or sports allow restarts because of mistakes made by players. Restarts are allowed in the case of (unintentional) cheating. How can you possibly argue that no advantage was being reset? If no advantage was being reset than their wouldn't need to be a rehost. Clearly Goongoon had an advantage due to a mistake lord raphael made. I don't even know how you can possibly argue that wasn't the case. Those are just facts.

[dave_12]

What does that have to do with today's game?
LR made a mistake that most likely would have cost him the game, that's his own fault and his alone.

I thought the 2 min rule was made to allow for a re in case of unfair spawn or hunts.

That.

[WickedCossack]

It's not person A has an advantage over person B and person B has a disadvantage to person A, Its person A has an advantage over person B because person A cheated ( false starting), and Person B has a disadvantage to person A because person B made a mistake.

You realise you've just re-framed your argument from one semantic waffle to another one. That is truly genius.

I'm sure that in a lot of cases there is no discernible difference from an outside perspective into whether an action was cheating or a mistake. Once again there are instances in other sports where we recognise that and impose some sort of warning, one strike rule etc

Who even cares if you make a mistake in the first 2 minutes than? It's just a free 2 minutes and if you don't like what happens just re. Once again all the examples that you listed of restarting an event are due to people cheating. This case today there was a restart because someone made a mistake. How can you possibly argue that someone should get to restart the game because they made a mistake? That's not in the spirit of competitive play and is unfair to the other player who has to forfeit their advantage for literally no reason. Maybe if this was a magic princess barbie world tournament with small children just trying to have fun it would make sense, but this is a "legitimate tournament" with a 4 digit prize pool that's allowing players to restart when they make massive mistakes.

This point has already been made at least 5 times in this thread. If there was any obvious advantage that was being reset then the situation changes and then as a caster I think the solution would be to ask both players if they don't mind re-hosting and if one says no then carry the game on.

[Vinyanyérë]

I lean more towards no re

That said I think that this quotation from the NA Challenger Series rule book for 2017 is interesting and applicable.

8.8.5 Selection Error. In the event of an erroneously-selected
Champion pick or ban, the team in error must notify a CS official before
the other team has locked in their next selection. If so, the process will
be restarted and brought back to the point at which the error occurred so
that the team in error may correct its mistake. If the next selection is
locked before the team in error gives notice to a CS official, the
erroneous selection shall be deemed irrevocable.

The analogy isn't perfect but it's evident that redoing something in the event of a misclick in the early stages of a match isn't unheard of in eSports.

source

[dicktator_]

I disagreed with the decision to rehost. Rehosts should never happen because of player error imo. When they do then you start to enter a grey area where other various player mistakes (accidental deletion of a vill for example) might also be grounds for a rehost. I agree the rules should be worded better and these kinds of situations should be included in the rules.

Also, rehosts should always happen before the one minute mark imo. Should actually be lower but I understand casters are only human. It’s just really obnoxious in my opinion to, a minute and 40 secs into the game, suddenly say “whoops map is bad rehost”. I also like Somppus idea of pausing the game at 0:00 to give casters time to check the map, then no rehosts after that.

[gibson]

It's not person A has an advantage over person B and person B has a disadvantage to person A, Its person A has an advantage over person B because person A cheated ( false starting), and Person B has a disadvantage to person A because person B made a mistake.

You realise you've just re-framed your argument from one semantic waffle to another one. That is truly genius.

I'm sure that in a lot of cases there is no discernible difference from an outside perspective into whether an action was cheating or a mistake. Once again there are instances in other sports where we recognise that and impose some sort of warning, one strike rule etc

Who even cares if you make a mistake in the first 2 minutes than? It's just a free 2 minutes and if you don't like what happens just re. Once again all the examples that you listed of restarting an event are due to people cheating. This case today there was a restart because someone made a mistake. How can you possibly argue that someone should get to restart the game because they made a mistake? That's not in the spirit of competitive play and is unfair to the other player who has to forfeit their advantage for literally no reason. Maybe if this was a magic princess barbie world tournament with small children just trying to have fun it would make sense, but this is a "legitimate tournament" with a 4 digit prize pool that's allowing players to restart when they make massive mistakes.

This point has already been made at least 5 times in this thread. If there was any obvious advantage that was being reset then the situation changes and then as a caster I think the solution would be to ask both players if they don't mind re-hosting and if one says no then carry the game on.

No I didn't re-frame my argument, I just went into more detail because you we're equivocating two things that were clearly not the same because you chose not to see the differences. Fact's remain that in all the examples you gave restarts are issued due to cheating. Once again it's not if there were any obvious advantages, cause there clearly were obvious advantages. Goongoon clearly had an obvious advantage at the point when raphael chose the wrong deck. If you don't think you did you just don't understand age of empires ( which I know you do). It retrospect its clear that the right choice would have been to ask both players if they were okay reing and if goongoon said no to restart the game. Radix was put in a tough situation and had to make a decision on the spot so I don't blame him, but it's okay to admit in retrospect that the wrong decision was made.

@Vinyanyérë thats not even comparable because the game hasn't actually started. That's exactly like someone changing their civ before the person who's counter picking picks his civ. Of course there aren't gonna be rules in place in any sports for restarting a game or round due to a player making an error because it just doesn't happen.

[ListlessSalmon]

I don't think it should be rehosted for such an error (except maybe if its one of the maps where you sometimes bug no water flag and player picked a water deck).

Suppose one of the players literally forgot to make vills for the first 60 seconds (an obviously ridiculous example- but I guess we could try to partially ground it in reality by saying they were thinking about playing otto or something). I would assume that wouldn't get a rehost, not totally clear to me why picking the wrong deck should be different.

[Vinyanyérë]

@Vinyanyérë thats not even comparable because the game hasn't actually started. That's exactly like someone changing their civ before the person who's counter picking picks his civ. Of course there aren't gonna be rules in place in any sports for restarting a game or round due to a player making an error because it just doesn't happen.

At that point the game of "League of Legends" would not have started, but the game of "League of Legends plus picks and bans", a game that consists of players doing a pick and ban phase and then playing out a game of "League of Legends" with those picks would have started. So it's at the early stages of some game, even though that game isn't technically "League of Legends". What I'm saying is that there are rules in places for rewinding when a player makes a mistake in at least one eSport.

[edeholland]

I also like Somppus idea of pausing the game at 0:00 to give casters time to check the map, then no rehosts after that.

This does give the players plenty of time to micromanage all their vills, crates, heroes, scouts, wagons etc. Not a huge deal, but does mean Japan with 6 vills, 2 heroes and 1 or 2 wagons can micromanage just as easily and perfectly as Sioux with just a few vills, crates and a hero.

[deleted_user]

I also like Somppus idea of pausing the game at 0:00 to give casters time to check the map, then no rehosts after that.

This does give the players plenty of time to micromanage all their vills, crates, heroes, scouts, wagons etc. Not a huge deal, but does mean Japan with 6 vills, 2 heroes and 1 or 2 wagons can micromanage just as easily and perfectly as Sioux with just a few vills, crates and a hero.

There is rarely never not observer lag which allows for this anyways. If anything it would equate the advantage given to the player with the better computer.

[dicktator_]

I also like Somppus idea of pausing the game at 0:00 to give casters time to check the map, then no rehosts after that.

This does give the players plenty of time to micromanage all their vills, crates, heroes, scouts, wagons etc. Not a huge deal, but does mean Japan with 6 vills, 2 heroes and 1 or 2 wagons can micromanage just as easily and perfectly as Sioux with just a few vills, crates and a hero.

That also happens if one player in the game has a slow computer, but still fair point.

Also free pwnika2

[Snuden]

I don't get how we can even disagree on this xD
Gibson pretty much is spot on with his explanations.

[gibson]

@Vinyanyérë thats not even comparable because the game hasn't actually started. That's exactly like someone changing their civ before the person who's counter picking picks his civ. Of course there aren't gonna be rules in place in any sports for restarting a game or round due to a player making an error because it just doesn't happen.

At that point the game of "League of Legends" would not have started, but the game of "League of Legends plus picks and bans", a game that consists of players doing a pick and ban phase and then playing out a game of "League of Legends" with those picks would have started. So it's at the early stages of some game, even though that game isn't technically "League of Legends". What I'm saying is that there are rules in places for rewinding when a player makes a mistake in at least one eSport.

So this aoe3 tournament is actually 2 games, Age of Empires 3 and "Age of Empires 3 plus map vetoes and civ picks". No that's stupid. There is no game league of legends plus picks and bans. That game just doesn't exist. They are setting the rules for the game, not playing the game, it's a completely different situation. It's not relevant in any way. It would be relevant if there had been an issue related to civ picking.

[WickedCossack]

No I didn't re-frame my argument, I just went into more detail because you we're equivocating two things that were clearly not the same because you chose not to see the differences. Fact's remain that in all the examples you gave restarts are issued due to cheating.

You're really going down the line of reasoning that false starts are the result of cheating and not the result of making a mistake?

I'd have a gander and estimate that 99% of false starts in high level competition are down to the person making a mistake and not cheating.

If people running high level sports agreed with your position gibson that it was cheating and not a mistake they would be immediately disqualified (by definition) in all cases. They don't and as such some rules treat the infraction as a mistake. Yes it is absolutely a semantics argument and the discrepancy in rules from sport to sport shows this. For you to claim "clearly not the same" when there is no common agreement on the way this is handled across sports is absurd.

Putting that to on side to address you other point regarding no re-starts for mistakes I can easily point to my favourite sport cycling where it happens almost every other race if a top competitor has a mechanical (mistake of the mechanic or riding on the gravelly bit of the road for a faster line) or accident (handling mistake) the other cyclists will wait up. Commissars will get involved with particularly bad accidents or train crossings to enforce that everyone waits. Most of these are done on a case-by-case basis.

[deleted_user]

I don't get how we can even disagree on this xD
Gibson pretty much is spot on with his explanations.

Yes there is only ever one correct answer /s

There might be a more correct answer though.

[Peshmerga12]

Why should GG pay for LordR mistake, i mean I would let him RE but every person decides in the game (and in that case goongoon).
As Snuden says Gibson explanations are perfect