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Sweden Gendarme
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07 Dec 2017, 19:53

I'm not comfortable holding at this high value when it's this damn volatile. If it calms I'll buy regardless of the value, but if it drops I'll buy even if it's not calm (I don't think it was overvalued at $10,000). So the best outcome is a drop, which I think is more likely to happen than not.
duck wrote:man it really sucks when you have to agree with gendarme on things
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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07 Dec 2017, 20:04

Could always buy some ETH
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XeeleeFlower wrote:I don't mind open endings as long as the story continues at some point
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Netherlands Mr_Bramboy
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07 Dec 2017, 21:11

Can anyone explain to me how the hell this works? So I just downloaded an app on my phone and "bought" 10 dollars worth of bitcoin, though I never had to deposit any "real" money. It's still in my portfolio, though.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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07 Dec 2017, 21:18

What app?
Whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Something home flower 41
XeeleeFlower wrote:I don't mind open endings as long as the story continues at some point
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Norway iwillspankyou
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07 Dec 2017, 21:26

Dolan wrote:Image

:hmm:

beginning of the end :ugly:

cannot trust a "money" that rices this fast. its bogues - beleave me :geek:
need some real coins to get your weeds, or shady buisness - next :o :o :o :o :o
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Sweden Gendarme
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07 Dec 2017, 21:29

@Mr_Bramboy You must have confused it with Zynga Poker.
duck wrote:man it really sucks when you have to agree with gendarme on things
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Netherlands Mr_Bramboy
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07 Dec 2017, 22:31

Goodspeed wrote:What app?

Turns out it was a bitcoin tracker and not an actual exchange app.
No Flag Leon Dragonov
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08 Dec 2017, 00:04

Snuden wrote:Many people are busy saying it's a bubble, waiting for the potential crash so they finally can appear smart and say "I told you so!"
Until then they keep saying "It WILL come!"

It is usually said by people, who haven't done the slightest research on the very topic they talk about.

Stocks, for example, have value because of the interest in a company that, at least theoretically, at some point in the future, can/may pay out dividends. I would argue that cryptocurrencies have no underlying intrinsic value, unlike virtually every other asset conceivable, and thus their value is entirely artificial.

I'm challenging you, in a friendly way, to respond to the following assertions and convince me that cryptocurrencies are a legitimate asset and not just 21st century Tulipmania (although, I have always said that timing is everything--even if you don't believe in a stock (Tesla, for example), when you buy and sell is the key, not the underlying fundamentals). I'm seriously open-minded (as in, willing to change my position) and would value a counter-perspective.

  • Because cryptocurrencies have such volatile value fluctuations they are useless for contracts (which is the primary benefit of real currency, such as the USD--you can be reasonably sure of the approximate future buying power of the currency, unlike Bitcoin where a contract with future delivery is essentially pointless);
  • Because cryptocurrencies have such large transaction costs they are of little value for buying and selling, relative to their "government" peers;
  • Because cryptocurrencies have such high transaction costs and long time delays (3-5 business days) for executing the transactions, they are weirdly illiquid investments relative to other financial assets;
  • The currency platforms are decentralized, unsecured, widely hacked, and with no ability to insure in case of loss of digital access to your currency, unlike virtually any traditional financial investment;
    https://www.wired.com/story/i-forgot-my ... n-bitcoin/
  • Finally, Bitcoin, for example, is a complete waste of human capital and other actual resources (and is actually a net negative to society):
    https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg ... resources/

In other words, cryptocurrencies produce...literally nothing of value, not even in theory. Like I said, that doesn't mean Bitcoin isn't an amazing investment (I would use the word "speculation") today; it just means that if there is no intrinsic value of the asset then at some point (whether that's 1 year or 1,000 years) the chickens will come home to roost when the "market"--eventually--recognizes that the cryptocurrencies have literally no intrinsic value.
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United States of America SirCallen
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08 Dec 2017, 01:04

I love you please stick around and post more ^
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Cyprus Snuden
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08 Dec 2017, 01:35

Even though he is pulling facts out of his arse?

High transaction fees? Long time delays? Dude is either a troll or dumber than allowed to be.
I have mentioned several times that coins like IOTA have ZERO transaction fees. ZERO. oh yea, its instant too.

College kids these days... argh.
Cyprus Snuden
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08 Dec 2017, 01:48

I just did a transaction in order to pay for some shenanigans;

Transaction cost: 1/3 of a tenth of a cent :-)
Transaction speed: 5 minutes
Cyprus Snuden
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08 Dec 2017, 01:49

iwillspankyou wrote:
Dolan wrote:Image

:hmm:

beginning of the end :ugly:

cannot trust a "money" that rices this fast. its bogues - beleave me :geek:
need some real coins to get your weeds, or shady buisness - next :o :o :o :o :o

But of course you had to come here and put your utter stupidity at full display.
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United States of America XeeleeFlower
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08 Dec 2017, 01:53

Snuden wrote:
iwillspankyou wrote:
Dolan wrote:Image

:hmm:

beginning of the end :ugly:

cannot trust a "money" that rices this fast. its bogues - beleave me :geek:
need some real coins to get your weeds, or shady buisness - next :o :o :o :o :o

But of course you had to come here and put your utter stupidity at full display.


Image
That's not a very nice thing to say :sad:
My posts represent my views and may or may not represent the views of ESOC as a whole.

Whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

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No Flag umeu
Gendarme
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08 Dec 2017, 01:55

Snuden wrote:Even though he is pulling facts out of his arse?

High transaction fees? Long time delays? Dude is either a troll or dumber than allowed to be.
I have mentioned several times that coins like IOTA have ZERO transaction fees. ZERO. oh yea, its instant too.

College kids these days... argh.


well transaction fees depend on the site. They're quite high tbh. mostly because the fees are a certain BTC, and since BTC rises a lot, if you calculate back to the dollar, the fees might be as high as 10 usd per transaction now. but there is an argument to be made that you shouldn't convert to another currency when calculating the transaction fees.

as for transaction speed, this varies a lot and you know that :P i've been waiting for 1 transaction for like 10 hours now =_=



https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg23631503-300-bitcoin-what-a-waste-of-resources/

this is also a good argument I think. but it's only really relevant to BTC, and only at this stage. It's not an argument against crypto. and most of the other things are being innovated as well. but ye, if btc doesn't innovate, they're likely not to stay the top coin forever. but who da hell knows lol
I kissed a girl and I liked it
Popped her cherry with my chapstick
I kissed a girl just to try it
I hope my wife don't mind it
It felt so wrong, it felt so right
Don't mean I'm in love tonight
I kissed a girl and I liked it
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Cyprus Snuden
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08 Dec 2017, 02:07

I also think Bitcoinsh sucks as payment. I also think the fees are out of this world.
Remember our DAV transactions yesterday? I believe it took less than a minute and with a $0.00???? fee

21
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Sweden Gendarme
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08 Dec 2017, 02:12

@Leon Dragonov Crypto-currencies are not inherently volatile. They are volatile now, but not necessarily in ten years. Crypto-currencies do not necessarily have high transaction costs either. In the case of Bitcoin it is very high at the moment (not sure why), but even Bitcoin is a crypto-currency in active development and the problem of scaling is in fact the main issue people are working on right now (e.g. SegWit, Lightning Network). What we will call Bitcoin five years from now (assuming it still exists) is probably very different to what Bitcoin is today. It is important to remember that while Bitcoin has grown extremely quickly and dominates the crypto-currency market, it is still in its infancy. You mention delayed transactions, but bank transactions, or at least international bank transactions, take several days too in many cases, which is a lot longer than Bitcoin transactions.

The issue of handling the Bitcoins is a big one, yes. The average Joe is certainly not a computer geek, and even folks of the younger generation who have grown up around computers and phones have only learned to be addicts. As it stands today, Bitcoin is not something for the average person. It requires some research and a lot of responsibility—two things that would frighten any modern Westerner. Whether the paradigm one day shifts and Bitcoin does become viable for most people is a question only time will answer, but it is certainly viable for a large enough population already.

Yes, Bitcoin mining drains a lot of energy. The finite amount of Bitcoins and the increasingly difficult and expensive mining was designed to replicate gold. Would you say mining gold is a waste of energy? No? Because gold is "useful"? Mining Bitcoin is not a waste of energy either, since the miners profit from it. Would the energy be better off used for something else? Well, apparently not.

Lastly, you state that crypto-currencies produce nothing of value but have merely reached that conclusion by ignoring all of the arguments in favor of them. The appeal of Bitcoin mainly comes from the freedom it offers. It lets you digitally store your money without having to trust a bank. It lets you trade out of the view of the Ministry of Plenty. Heck, not even the other part of the transaction knows who you are. It lets you use a kind of money that is not as easily manipulated by banks and governments. Secure, anonymous, and free (though certainly not completely) from manipulation—those are the fundamentals that are highly valued by many. Whether you can buy coffee with it or not right now is frankly completely uninteresting.

Your post was not directed to me, but hopefully you care more about the content than its author, and I hope I am not being too unfriendly.
duck wrote:man it really sucks when you have to agree with gendarme on things
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No Flag lejend
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08 Dec 2017, 08:22

Snuden wrote:
lejend wrote:
Show hidden quotes


Nobody is going t invest just because you mentioned something. People will still do the research on it. It's just more information.

For long term I think IOTA is good. Fortune 500 companies are involved and (as I see it) actually could be great for online merchants, due to 0% fee and instant transactions.


I've heard good things about that one too.
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No Flag Leon Dragonov
Crossbow
Posts: 7

08 Dec 2017, 09:43

Gendarme wrote:@Leon Dragonov Crypto-currencies are not inherently volatile. They are volatile now, but not necessarily in ten years. Crypto-currencies do not necessarily have high transaction costs either. In the case of Bitcoin it is very high at the moment (not sure why), but even Bitcoin is a crypto-currency in active development and the problem of scaling is in fact the main issue people are working on right now (e.g. SegWit, Lightning Network). What we will call Bitcoin five years from now (assuming it still exists) is probably very different to what Bitcoin is today. It is important to remember that while Bitcoin has grown extremely quickly and dominates the crypto-currency market, it is still in its infancy. You mention delayed transactions, but bank transactions, or at least international bank transactions, take several days too in many cases, which is a lot longer than Bitcoin transactions.

What's needed is for people to stop viewing it as a speculative asset, and to start using it as a way to buy / sell everyday things. Merchants won't accept payment in the currency so long as it is viewed speculatively. And investors won't stop viewing it speculatively until merchants start accepting payment in the currency. Actively developing bitcoin isn't going to break this deadlock.

The issue of handling the Bitcoins is a big one, yes. The average Joe is certainly not a computer geek, and even folks of the younger generation who have grown up around computers and phones have only learned to be addicts. As it stands today, Bitcoin is not something for the average person. It requires some research and a lot of responsibility—two things that would frighten any modern Westerner. Whether the paradigm one day shifts and Bitcoin does become viable for most people is a question only time will answer, but it is certainly viable for a large enough population already.

Viable on what grounds? What merchant is going to accept payment in a currency that gains and then loses $5,000 value in the same day? What idiot would keep their savings in that kind of asset?

Yes, Bitcoin mining drains a lot of energy. The finite amount of Bitcoins and the increasingly difficult and expensive mining was designed to replicate gold. Would you say mining gold is a waste of energy? No? Because gold is "useful"? Mining Bitcoin is not a waste of energy either, since the miners profit from it. Would the energy be better off used for something else? Well, apparently not.

Goldman Sachs recently compared Bitcoin to Gold on characteristics such as Durability, Portability, Intrinsic value and Unit of Account and found that Bitcoin beats Gold on just 1 key aspect - Portability.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... and-wealth

Gold is stable enough to be used as currency, and is actually used as currency in some parts of the world. There is intrinsic value to gold, but not bitcoin.

Lastly, you state that crypto-currencies produce nothing of value but have merely reached that conclusion by ignoring all of the arguments in favor of them. The appeal of Bitcoin mainly comes from the freedom it offers. It lets you digitally store your money without having to trust a bank. It lets you trade out of the view of the Ministry of Plenty. Heck, not even the other part of the transaction knows who you are. It lets you use a kind of money that is not as easily manipulated by banks and governments. Secure, anonymous, and free (though certainly not completely) from manipulation—those are the fundamentals that are highly valued by many. Whether you can buy coffee with it or not right now is frankly completely uninteresting.

This is the value of blockchain technology, not bitcoin. Owning bitcoin, or any other cryptocurrency, does not give you any ownership in blockchain.

Bitcoin has no fundamental value. It has no natural sellers. No one uses it to buy things or arrange contracts. The price will only go up for as long the speculators think they can make money.
No Flag umeu
Gendarme
Posts: 6897

08 Dec 2017, 09:50

Snuden wrote:I also think Bitcoinsh sucks as payment. I also think the fees are out of this world.
Remember our DAV transactions yesterday? I believe it took less than a minute and with a $0.00???? fee

21


yeah the DAV transactions, but it was on an internal exchange and a new coin. I also transacted BTC to another site. It's been 16 hours, still unconfirmed and they charged 0.0005 which was like 9 usd at yesterdays btc prices.
I kissed a girl and I liked it
Popped her cherry with my chapstick
I kissed a girl just to try it
I hope my wife don't mind it
It felt so wrong, it felt so right
Don't mean I'm in love tonight
I kissed a girl and I liked it
I liked it
Cyprus Snuden
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08 Dec 2017, 10:15

umeu wrote:
Snuden wrote:I also think Bitcoinsh sucks as payment. I also think the fees are out of this world.
Remember our DAV transactions yesterday? I believe it took less than a minute and with a $0.00???? fee

21


yeah the DAV transactions, but it was on an internal exchange and a new coin. I also transacted BTC to another site. It's been 16 hours, still unconfirmed and they charged 0.0005 which was like 9 usd at yesterdays btc prices.

The transaction went through the blockchain and not as an "account to account" transfer.
BTC fee's and transaction time is a pain in the butt right now.
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Sweden Gendarme
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08 Dec 2017, 11:33

duck wrote:man it really sucks when you have to agree with gendarme on things
Cyprus Snuden
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08 Dec 2017, 11:58

And back up we go... (at least for now)
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Sweden Gendarme
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08 Dec 2017, 12:01

Ain't hittin' $16,000 before hittin' $13,000 son!
duck wrote:man it really sucks when you have to agree with gendarme on things
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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08 Dec 2017, 12:06

I actually got me some ETH yesterday. I regret not buying all of the alt coins now :/
Whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Something home flower 41
XeeleeFlower wrote:I don't mind open endings as long as the story continues at some point
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Sweden Gendarme
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08 Dec 2017, 12:13

Why ETH? That thing has been stationary for weeks.
duck wrote:man it really sucks when you have to agree with gendarme on things

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