Non western countries

This is for discussions about news, politics, sports, other games, culture, philosophy etc.
User avatar
Austria knusch
Pro Player
EWTDonator 01
Posts: 1113
Joined: Jul 25, 2015

Re: Non western countries

Post by knusch »

Dolan wrote:Spoiled Westerner lecturing us how Russia is right because if they fucked up Eastern Europe before, they have an eternal right to this part of the world. You know what, you can fuck off of NATO if you don't like it or if you Westerners got so pussified that you don't even know your own good. Your army is actually smaller than Romania's army effectives, even though your population is like more than 4 times bigger. This shows your level of interest in contributing to security in Europe. 'Let's just use our money to make ourselves richer and let Uncle Sam pay for our defence'.

When are Germans going to grow some balls this century? kek


this is just soooo wrong in so many ways....if u cant understand why germany has no interest in arms races or is in general reluctant to act out interventionist policies----> go read a history book

but since u point to the great contributions rumania is making for the security of europe, u do realize that all these "pussified western european" countries (very charming btw) actually transfer money to rumania (representing infact more than rumania's entire military budget)

SO YEAH, FEEL WELCOME'D!

ps: id like to point the attention to one of rapha's posts and the important lecture to learn from: MAKE AUSTRIA-HUNGARY GREAT AGAIN!!!!
Germany lordraphael
Pro Player
EWTNWC LAN SilverAdvanced Division WinnerDonator 01
Posts: 2549
Joined: Jun 28, 2015

Re: Non western countries

Post by lordraphael »

Dolan wrote:
lordraphael wrote:Go figure it out yourself dont bullshit around and tell me that those nations were independent during the cold war. They were essentially russian territory.

You should familiarise yourself first with the history of those countries before making such blanket statements. If you did, you would have known that, for example, while Romania was part of the Communist bloc of states before 1989, the regime's policies were not aligned to those of the USSR. That's why Romania had good relations with the USA and was awarded the most favored nation status by the US in 1975. Romania was also one of the first states to condemn the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968. Ceausescu, who was the president of Communist Romania at that time, criticised and berated Soviet Russia for invading a sovereign state. Do you think Russians could have just walked into any country they wanted and started ordering people around, as if they were on their own territory? Reality couldn't be further from what you believe.

It may not be right what russia does and how it acts but it surely shouldnt surprise anyone and the NATO should have expected this behaviour.

Which behaviour? Invading a sovereign state (Ukraine) again (after Czechoslovakia)? When did NATO invade a sovereign state and annex it?

If you ask me which side I would pick, I'd rather support a side which doesn't have an authoritarian/dictatorial rule like Russia, where a clan of oligarchs own the country and which has a history of territorial annexations and blunt interventions in another sovereign state's affairs.

But what do you know? You lived all your life safe in Germany, away from conflicts, away from Communist destruction (which is not only a question of low living standards and material comfort, but also of deformed mentalities and fucked up lives, people thrown into prison just for telling a joke about the party and so on and so forth).

Spoiled Westerner lecturing us how Russia is right because if they fucked up Eastern Europe before, they have an eternal right to this part of the world. You know what, you can fuck off of NATO if you don't like it or if you Westerners got so pussified that you don't even know your own good. Your army is actually smaller than Romania's army effectives, even though your population is like more than 4 times bigger. This shows your level of interest in contributing to security in Europe. 'Let's just use our money to make ourselves richer and let Uncle Sam pay for our defence'.

When are Germans going to grow some balls this century? kek

either you are like 40 to 50 years old or you have lived all you life safe in france or wherever the hell you come from so dont talk about it like you know everything its getting really annoying. Its also funny how you pick up one 1 state while ignoring everything else. Poland DDR czechia ukraine etc where all satellite states of Russia they might have had independent internal politics but they pretty much couldnt decide shit without Sowjets in foreign affairs.
Politics is not about what you would like to do but what is possible and reasonable to achieve. I dont see you saying that the NATO should interfere in the China /Tibet crysis and force CHina to give up Tibet, I dont see you saying they should accept taiwan into the NATO, I dont see you saying that the NATO should get rid of Turkey for being an autocracy.
But yeah moving closer to Russia and threaten the second strongest military power in the world yeah that seems reasonable. Its not a matter of being the right thing to do its a matter of what is smart . And expanding the NATO closer to russia simply is not smart.
Also nice finishing argument really great one, well done throw in some germany hate, either we are to militaristic or to peaceful cant do it right lol. Better do it like france, ahve a big military a shitload of debts and then ask for eurobonds so that germany can pay your debts off.
breeze wrote: they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
Czech Republic Googol
Retired Contributor
Posts: 1728
Joined: Jan 12, 2017
ESO: Butifle
Location: Central Bohemia

Re: Non western countries

Post by Googol »

All of these countries got dark history boys, just chill about it and be glad we are not living in full nazi controled or full communist controled world ;)
User avatar
Netherland Antilles Laurence Drake
Jaeger
Posts: 2687
Joined: Dec 25, 2015

Re: Non western countries

Post by Laurence Drake »

Dolan wrote:
Laurence Drake wrote:Truth is, no one could care less about Romania's policies during this period, or any period for that matter.

It's easy for you to say that, when you lived on a island, instead of having lived at the crossroads between two expansive empires (Ottoman and Russian) and the rest of Europe. All this while, fighting to defend and keep your territory in the face of countless invasions. You know what they were trying to conquer, all those Eastern empires? Surely not our medium-sized country that was mostly covered by thick forests (especially in the South), they were interested in reaching Western Europe. So all those centuries you enjoyed your comfy tea with crumpets in the West, we had been fighting to defend the gate to Europe.

No worries, though, you'll get a taste of what it means to become insignificant after Brexit. Image

And yet after all this time literally the only thing your country is known for is vampires.
Top quality poster.
No Flag lejend
Jaeger
Posts: 2461
Joined: Nov 15, 2015

Re: Non western countries

Post by lejend »

lordraphael wrote:ye NATO should have stayed out of the east. It was arrogant to believe that you could just swallow former russian territory and they would do nothing.


Yeah that's not Russian territory dawg. Those are, and were, independent countries with ancient and distinct cultures and histories prior to Russian aggression and invasion. They have no need for permission from Russia before entering into agreements with other countries. They look at Russia and Europe and understandably wish to become like the latter, rather than just returning to their old status as poor and repressed Russian buffer zones. Can't really blame them for asking for NATO protection.
User avatar
France Rikikipu
Retired Contributor
Posts: 1679
Joined: Feb 27, 2015
ESO: p-of
Location: In your base

Re: Non western countries

Post by Rikikipu »

Laurence Drake wrote:Truth is, no one could care less about Romania's policies during this period, or any period for that matter.

Lol, I hope you joke. Every country is important, and Rumania might probably be one of the most important one in this area of the world because of the geographical place it got, and because of obvious historical points.

@lordraphael If you check this link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures you can see that Germany outgoings are definitely significant (one of the biggest in the world).

@yurashic intersting, I thought russian people were overall anti-EU.
User avatar
Finland princeofkabul
Pro Player
NWC LAN Top 8EPL Reigning Champs
Posts: 2372
Joined: Feb 28, 2015
ESO: Princeofkabul
Location: In retirement home with Sam and Vic

Re: Non western countries

Post by princeofkabul »

vardar wrote:I mean, the Russian government is basically a very organized mafia

No. He is democratic elected.


vardar wrote:But what government isn't
Yes. USA and other goverments are not very good, too.[/quote]

you must be naive if you think the elections were democratic. Also have you read about that medvedev got caught by stealing money from russian citizens and alexei navalny and his opposition party is calling him and all of the others to answer for their crimes? The government proceeded by imprisonin navalny.
Chairman of Washed Up clan
Leader of the Shady Swedes
Team Manager of the Blockhouse Boomers
User avatar
Austria knusch
Pro Player
EWTDonator 01
Posts: 1113
Joined: Jul 25, 2015

Re: Non western countries

Post by knusch »

plz lets all stop questioning the legitimacy of democratic processes in russia or crimea. i mean they r taking transparency to the next lvl....i mean the ballet boxes r literally transparent :flowers:
Germany lordraphael
Pro Player
EWTNWC LAN SilverAdvanced Division WinnerDonator 01
Posts: 2549
Joined: Jun 28, 2015

Re: Non western countries

Post by lordraphael »

lejend wrote:
lordraphael wrote:ye NATO should have stayed out of the east. It was arrogant to believe that you could just swallow former russian territory and they would do nothing.


Yeah that's not Russian territory dawg. Those are, and were, independent countries with ancient and distinct cultures and histories prior to Russian aggression and invasion. They have no need for permission from Russia before entering into agreements with other countries. They look at Russia and Europe and understandably wish to become like the latter, rather than just returning to their old status as poor and repressed Russian buffer zones. Can't really blame them for asking for NATO protection.

and europe and the NATO should turn them down. EU eastern expansion was such a bad decision it may actually kill the EU, it happened way to fast and eastern europeans dont share the values of western ones for the most part/ have very different interests + plus their economical strength isnt nowhere comparable to those of western Europe. Well NATO is not europe but its expansion east doesnt make the world a safer place, which is one of the goals of the NATO, making the world a safer place.
breeze wrote: they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
Germany lordraphael
Pro Player
EWTNWC LAN SilverAdvanced Division WinnerDonator 01
Posts: 2549
Joined: Jun 28, 2015

Re: Non western countries

Post by lordraphael »

Rikikipu wrote:
Laurence Drake wrote:Truth is, no one could care less about Romania's policies during this period, or any period for that matter.

Lol, I hope you joke. Every country is important, and Rumania might probably be one of the most important one in this area of the world because of the geographical place it got, and because of obvious historical points.

@lordraphael If you check this link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures you can see that Germany outgoings are definitely significant (one of the biggest in the world).

@yurashic intersting, I thought russian people were overall anti-EU.

well its the GDP that matters. 1.2% is certainly on the lower end of military expenses. I believe the NATO aims at 2 % per country.
breeze wrote: they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
No Flag lejend
Jaeger
Posts: 2461
Joined: Nov 15, 2015

Re: Non western countries

Post by lejend »

lordraphael wrote:
lejend wrote:
lordraphael wrote:ye NATO should have stayed out of the east. It was arrogant to believe that you could just swallow former russian territory and they would do nothing.


Yeah that's not Russian territory dawg. Those are, and were, independent countries with ancient and distinct cultures and histories prior to Russian aggression and invasion. They have no need for permission from Russia before entering into agreements with other countries. They look at Russia and Europe and understandably wish to become like the latter, rather than just returning to their old status as poor and repressed Russian buffer zones. Can't really blame them for asking for NATO protection.

and europe and the NATO should turn them down. EU eastern expansion was such a bad decision it may actually kill the EU, it happened way to fast and eastern europeans dont share the values of western ones for the most part/ have very different interests + plus their economical strength isnt nowhere comparable to those of western Europe. Well NATO is not europe but its expansion east doesnt make the world a safer place, which is one of the goals of the NATO, making the world a safer place.


NATO makes the world a safer place by extending its protection to even the weakest countries. Without NATO Eastern Europe would end up like Georgia and Ukraine. The current world order is responsible for making this the safest and most prosperous era ever. Last thing we need now, is a return to the "multipolar" and anarchic world orders of the 19-20th centuries.

https://ourworldindata.org/war-and-peace/

Image
No Flag deleted_user
Ninja
Posts: 14364
Joined: Mar 26, 2015

Re: Non western countries

Post by deleted_user »

Rikikipu wrote:I've thought it would be intersting to hear people from countries like Russia, China or this "kind of country" to see what they think about NATO ? What do they think about western countries, do they think we misjudge their country ? @yurashic @fei123456 @deleted_user5

Idk if you are aware but turkey is at nato since it was established.
Netherlands Veni_Vidi_Vici_W
Lancer
Posts: 632
Joined: Feb 12, 2015
ESO: ramex19

Re: Non western countries

  • Quote

Post by Veni_Vidi_Vici_W »

Dolan wrote:
Veni_Vidi_Vici_W wrote:NATO isnt the kind and peaceful organization it pretends to be, and unfortunately many in the West easily believe it is, its that simple.

So, is it NATO's fault that many people mistake it for Mother Theresa?

- First of all, i wanted to make a point, and hopefully get people to do some research themselves rather than just accepting everything in general.
- Secondly, it is NATO"s fault yes, because it pretends to be better than it actually is. As ive explained earlier but you didnt quote that part for some reason?
I dont like false pretences. They are doing the opposite of what they claim to stand for and want to do:
"NATO is an active and leading contributor to peace and security on the international stage. It promotes democratic values and is committed to the peaceful resolution of disputes." Adding many more military bases on sensitive territories very close to Russia, more military exercises there, etc, I wouldnt call "contributing to peace". Furthermore, installing a puppet in the Ukranian government that does what you want isnt really democratic either. The involvement in Libya doesnt really match these criteria as well imo, though that is debatable ofc.

Dolan wrote:
Veni_Vidi_Vici_W wrote:how would YOU feel if there was an agreement with another part of the world to keep their distance, dont expand military operations, bases and influence closer to you, and then it turns out they are doing the opposite.

Where did you get that from? There was no such agreement.

I could have worded it a little better, used some similar words like "respect souvereignity and territories" etc, but it (NATO's intentions and mission compared to its actions) comes down to the same. Have you even read about the agreement between them to start with?
For example, from NATOs website regarding the Act between NATO and Russia:
refraining from the threat or use of force against each other as well as against any other state, its sovereignty, territorial integrity or political independence in any manner inconsistent with the United Nations Charter and with the Declaration of Principles Guiding Relations Between Participating States contained in the Helsinki Final Act;
respect for sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of all states and their inherent right to choose the means to ensure their own security, the inviolability of borders and peoples' right of self-determination as enshrined in the Helsinki Final Act and other OSCE documents;


Dolan wrote:When it comes to politics, lots of people just play it by ear, rather than looking at facts.

Let me correct this for you:
When it comes to politics, lots of people are naive, just automatically accept a certain truth, often propagated by the media and government, rather than looking at facts and making just a tiny effort to do some research. I advice you to wake up now rather than later, as the world we live in is not a fairytale and the earlier you realize this the better it will be for your own good.
Have a look at the psychological concept "cognitive dissonance", its very applicable here, to you, and to most. Only by being open to new arguments, regardless of truth or not, can you expand your horizon and thought processes. It is then your job to dig deeper and find out if/why its true or not.
Age Of Empires 3 Videos - GamePlay, Commentary & Tutorials: http://www.youtube.com/venividiviciw
Age Of Empires 3 Live Stream - http://www.twitch.tv/venividivici_w
User avatar
Sweden Gendarme
Gendarme
Donator 03
Posts: 5132
Joined: Sep 11, 2016
ESO: Gendarme

Re: Non western countries

  • Quote

Post by Gendarme »

Veni pretty based. I like :D
Pay more attention to detail.
User avatar
Finland princeofkabul
Pro Player
NWC LAN Top 8EPL Reigning Champs
Posts: 2372
Joined: Feb 28, 2015
ESO: Princeofkabul
Location: In retirement home with Sam and Vic

Re: Non western countries

Post by princeofkabul »

j_t_kirk wrote:
princeofkabul wrote:
vardar wrote:I mean, the Russian government is basically a very organized mafia

No. He is democratic elected.


vardar wrote:But what government isn't
Yes. USA and other goverments are not very good, too.

you must be naive if you think the elections were democratic. Also have you read about that medvedev got caught by stealing money from russian citizens and alexei navalny and his opposition party is calling him and all of the others to answer for their crimes? The government proceeded by imprisonin navalny.


No, I am not naive. I only see both sides. I dislike this "Russia is so bad and agressive and the USA and the western World is good and peaceful" position.
Over 60% of the people on the Crimea are russians. Guess what they will vote for: Russia or pro-european Ukraine ;)


the thing is, you're not "seeing" both sides. The moment you claimed that russia has democratic elections is bullshit. Russia is led by criminals pointed by.... any politician? Europe is treating them like criminals and so are russians who have fled the country to europe. The government is rotten. However it doesn't say that US is not. But you're not watching the matter from both sides, you're biased towards russia if that's your mindset. Every single russian i've met in Finland says the same... all of the educated russians says the same. and I've certainly spoke with many russians about this matter. Afterall, im spending most of the time with them every day.
Chairman of Washed Up clan
Leader of the Shady Swedes
Team Manager of the Blockhouse Boomers
User avatar
Nauru Dolan
Ninja
Posts: 13064
Joined: Sep 17, 2015

Re: Non western countries

Post by Dolan »

knusch wrote:this is just soooo wrong in so many ways....if u cant understand why germany has no interest in arms races or is in general reluctant to act out interventionist policies----> go read a history book

but since u point to the great contributions rumania is making for the security of europe, u do realize that all these "pussified western european" countries (very charming btw) actually transfer money to rumania (representing infact more than rumania's entire military budget)

SO YEAH, FEEL WELCOME'D!

ps: id like to point the attention to one of rapha's posts and the important lecture to learn from: MAKE AUSTRIA-HUNGARY GREAT AGAIN!!!!

Funny you say that, because my family is half Austrian and came to Romania as part of the Austro-Hungarian army that conquered the Northern part of Romania (Bucovina). So, yeah, make Austro-Hungaria great again. I might go back to my roots then.

No, no Western country transfers any money for Romania's defence. You can sleep tight, nobody's using any of your money to fund another NATO country's security. Each country is required by NATO to spend 2% of its GDP on its own military. Don't listen to the news only, Trump doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about, those money don't leave any NATO country, they go to each country's military.

So maybe you can show me which money do those Western countries transfer to Romania. Maybe you mean EU funds? But everyone contributes to those, not just Western countries. And let's say you're right on one account: the bulk of EU budgetary contributions come from countries with the biggest GDP. But why do you think your country voted to support Romania's EU membership? Why do you think Germany did? The Netherlands? I'll tell you why, by using numbers.

In 2015 alone, foreign companies in Romania reported a turnover of 55 billion euros, out of which Austrian companies in Romania generated about 13 billion euros. That was reflected in an annual profit of 430 million euros, per one year alone. Now, let's look at how much did Austria contribute to the EU budget. Austria contributed 2.7bn euros to the EU budget in 2015, Romania contributed 1.4bn euros (figures taken from this financial report: http://ec.europa.eu/budget/financialrep ... ex_en.html). The estimations that I have for 2015 show that Romania received about 6.4bn euros from the EU budget and contributed 1.45bn euros to the EU budget. So Romania netted about 4.9bn euros in 2015 from EU funds alone. Let me make it clear that these 4.9 billion euros come from a total of 28 EU Member states, not from one country alone. These funds are allocated under a budgetary heading called ERDF (European Regional Development Fund) mostly. If we ignore expenses with administration or liabilities like pensions, of the total expenditure for 2015 on transfer payments (EUR 112.4 billion) ERFD received about 35% (39.34bn euros).

Now, let's see how much was Austria's contribution to the ERDF per 2015. EU total expenditures per 2015: 155.9bn euros. Austria's contribution: 2.5bn (~1.6%). ERDF represented 35% of the total expenditure, which makes Austria's contribution to the ERDF in 2015 amount to 875m euros. This contribution was distributed to all the EU states which receive development funds. So each country could have received an equal share of 31.2 million euros from Austria. That's your share of contributions for each state in terms of development funding. Of course, in reality each country has different developmental needs, so it's likely that Poland got most of the money, followed by Lithuania, Hungary, Czech Republic etc. I don't have a precise breakdown of how much % each country received in 2015, but let's assume Romania got 100 millions from those 875 provided by Austria (though the sum is likely to be much lower, considering how many recipients there were). At the end of the same year, Austrian companies netted a profit of 430 million euros. In terms of trade, Austria exported worth of 2.54bn euros in Romania and imported worth of 1.41bn euros. Overall trade balance per 2015: +1.13bn euros.

The numbers are a lot bigger for Germany and the Netherlands.

So you see, you invest about a few tens of millions maybe and get hundreds of millions, because your companies own most of the oil processing and fuel distribution sector (OMV), construction materials sector (Wienerberger, JAF/Holver), residential construction (Strabag), banking sector (Erste Bank, Raiffeisen), auto distribution (Porsche), insurance (Generali Holding, Uniqa) etc etc etc.

That's why Germany, the Netherlands, Austria, France and other Western countries (well Austria is more Central-European, actually) supported Romania to become an EU member, because it was a good cow for you to milk, year after year. You get at least 5 times more profit than what you invest. Because labour is cheap, taxes are low and there's no extra tax on repatriation of profits, since capital is free to travel within the Common market.

So these Eastern European states are like a kid who gets a candy, but in exchange for that candy, he is required to work and produce at least 5 more candies. You're welcome, Austria! Don't mention it. Same for Germany, the Netherlands and other Western countries.
User avatar
Finland princeofkabul
Pro Player
NWC LAN Top 8EPL Reigning Champs
Posts: 2372
Joined: Feb 28, 2015
ESO: Princeofkabul
Location: In retirement home with Sam and Vic

Re: Non western countries

Post by princeofkabul »

Are you really blaming western europe for your countrys poorness or am I just missing something here? Didn't really bother to read that statistical talk precisely.
Chairman of Washed Up clan
Leader of the Shady Swedes
Team Manager of the Blockhouse Boomers
User avatar
Nauru Dolan
Ninja
Posts: 13064
Joined: Sep 17, 2015

Re: Non western countries

Post by Dolan »

Veni_Vidi_Vici_W wrote:First of all, i wanted to make a point, and hopefully get people to do some research themselves rather than just accepting everything in general.
Secondly, it is NATO"s fault yes, because it pretend to be better than it actually is. As ive explained earlier but you didnt quote that part for some reason? They are doing the opposite of what they claim to stand for and want to do "NATO is an active and leading contributor to peace and security on the international stage. It promotes democratic values and is committed to the peaceful resolution of disputes." Adding many more military bases on sensitive territories very close to Russia, more military exercises there, etc, I wouldnt call "contributing to peace". Furthermore, installing a puppet in the Ukranian government that does what you want isnt really democratic either. The involvement in Libya doesnt really match these criteria as well imo, though that is debatable ofc.

But NATO is a military organisation, what would you expect it to be? The UN? How could they describe themselves? "We are a military organisation that will attack any state that attacks any member of our organisation". This is just official talk, official-ese, it's just a political statement, it's not part of the treaty. The treaty only talks about the members' obligations, not about the organisation's obligations to the world. It's a mutual defence organisation, not a defence charity.
And obviously, every organisation will try to describe itself in the most favourable terms on its own website. You have to look at the facts, though. Russia is the country that annexed and attacked sovereign states like Ukraine and Czechoslovakia in 1968, so history shows Russia has an expansionist policy towards its neighbours. So, NATO's enlargement in Eastern Europe was part of a historical reparation. Western Europe and the USA abandoned the East at the end of WW2 and left it under the control of the USSR. Churchill divided Europe's spheres of influence on a napkin, in a negotiation session with Stalin. Then Stalin invaded Romania under the pretext of "liberating" it from the Axes, even though Romania was already liberated. This is how they brought Communism here, by the force of tanks. And this has meant more than 42 years of demented social experiments that set the country back by decades and destroyed the lives of millions of people. What would you know about this, when you lived in a country far away from Russia?
I could have worded it a little better, used some similar words like "respect souvereignity and territories" etc, but have you really read about the agreement between them? And the good intentions that were there?
For example, from NATOs website regarding the Act between NATO and Russia:
refraining from the threat or use of force against each other as well as against any other state, its sovereignty, territorial integrity or political independence in any manner inconsistent with the United Nations Charter and with the Declaration of Principles Guiding Relations Between Participating States contained in the Helsinki Final Act;
respect for sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of all states and their inherent right to choose the means to ensure their own security, the inviolability of borders and peoples' right of self-determination as enshrined in the Helsinki Final Act and other OSCE documents;

And how did NATO break that commitment? Can you prove NATO installed the Ukrainian government? Did they simulate their elections too?
Let me correct this for you. When it comes to politics, lots of people just automatically accept a certain truth, often propagated by the media and government, rather than looking at facts and making just a tiny effort to do some research. Have a look at the psychological concept "cognitive dissonance", its very applicable here, to you, and to most. Only by being open to new arguments, regardless of truth or not, can you expand your horizon and thought processes. It is then your job to dig deeper and find out if/why its true or not.

Veni, stop with this arrogant BS (ie, "Let me correct this for you", "very applicable here, to you, and to most"). I studied political science at the university. But I don't claim that I know some kind of cognitive bias that applies to "you and most people" because I'm so much smarter and it doesn't apply to me... Why would you assume this air of condescension with me? Did you study politics? Worked in politics? I did both.

What kind of "cognitive dissonance" did you identify in my arguments? Any examples? A dissonance between what and what? I agree with the rest of the argument that one should make an effort to seek out facts and think for oneself, instead of just being a follower. Though I wouldn't demonise the media so much, it just sounds too much like conspiracy theory BS.
User avatar
Nauru Dolan
Ninja
Posts: 13064
Joined: Sep 17, 2015

Re: Non western countries

Post by Dolan »

princeofkabul wrote:Are you really blaming western europe for your countrys poorness or am I just missing something here? Didn't really bother to read that statistical talk precisely.

I'm not blaming Western Europe, I'm saying that there are factors which made my current country fail to develop much until now. And the most important was that we never had the time to do that, since most of our history is basically just a constant fight to defend our territory in front of two neighbouring and expansionist empires. How would your country develop if your territory was placed between Russia and the Ottoman empire? How could you develop your eco, when you're getting rushed by 4-5 hordes of different civs every year?

See.. the UK didn't have to go through this situation, neither did the Netherlands, neither did Germany and so on. So they had all the time in history to occupy their time with science and development.
User avatar
Finland princeofkabul
Pro Player
NWC LAN Top 8EPL Reigning Champs
Posts: 2372
Joined: Feb 28, 2015
ESO: Princeofkabul
Location: In retirement home with Sam and Vic

Re: Non western countries

  • Quote

Post by princeofkabul »

Dolan wrote:
princeofkabul wrote:Are you really blaming western europe for your countrys poorness or am I just missing something here? Didn't really bother to read that statistical talk precisely.

I'm not blaming Western Europe, I'm saying that there are factors which made my current country fail to develop much until now. And the most important was that we never had the time to do that, since most of our history is basically just a constant fight to defend our territory in front of two neighbouring and expansionist empires. How would your country develop if your territory was placed between Russia and the Ottoman empire? How could you develop your eco, when you're getting rushed by 4-5 hordes of different civs every year?

See.. the UK didn't have to go through this situation, neither did the Netherlands, neither did Germany and so on. So they had all the time in history to occupy their time with science and development.


yeah that is fair to say, well the only option is to defend that strelet rush like we did in ww2. Otherwise my country could be in the same state as yours. And I see your point differing for most of western europeans about NATO, I'd be glad if Finland was in NATO. Honestly western euros cannot understand about how important is to have a NATO influence over a country which shares same culture and ideology than the rest of europe, they do not share border with commies.
Chairman of Washed Up clan
Leader of the Shady Swedes
Team Manager of the Blockhouse Boomers
User avatar
Austria knusch
Pro Player
EWTDonator 01
Posts: 1113
Joined: Jul 25, 2015

Re: Non western countries

Post by knusch »

Dolan wrote:
knusch wrote:this is just soooo wrong in so many ways....if u cant understand why germany has no interest in arms races or is in general reluctant to act out interventionist policies----> go read a history book

but since u point to the great contributions rumania is making for the security of europe, u do realize that all these "pussified western european" countries (very charming btw) actually transfer money to rumania (representing infact more than rumania's entire military budget)

SO YEAH, FEEL WELCOME'D!

ps: id like to point the attention to one of rapha's posts and the important lecture to learn from: MAKE AUSTRIA-HUNGARY GREAT AGAIN!!!!

Funny you say that, because my family is half Austrian and came to Romania as part of the Austro-Hungarian army that conquered the Northern part of Romania (Bucovina). So, yeah, make Austro-Hungaria great again. I might go back to my roots then.

No, no Western country transfers any money for Romania's defence. You can sleep tight, nobody's using any of your money to fund another NATO country's security. Each country is required by NATO to spend 2% of its GDP on its own military. Don't listen to the news only, Trump doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about, those money don't leave any NATO country, they go to each country's military.

So maybe you can show me which money do those Western countries transfer to Romania. Maybe you mean EU funds? But everyone contributes to those, not just Western countries. And let's say you're right on one account: the bulk of EU budgetary contributions come from countries with the biggest GDP. But why do you think your country voted to support Romania's EU membership? Why do you think Germany did? The Netherlands? I'll tell you why, by using numbers.

In 2015 alone, foreign companies in Romania reported a turnover of 55 billion euros, out of which Austrian companies in Romania generated about 13 billion euros. That was reflected in an annual profit of 430 million euros, per one year alone. Now, let's look at how much did Austria contribute to the EU budget. Austria contributed 2.7bn euros to the EU budget in 2015, Romania contributed 1.4bn euros (figures taken from this financial report: http://ec.europa.eu/budget/financialrep ... ex_en.html). The estimations that I have for 2015 show that Romania received about 6.4bn euros from the EU budget and contributed 1.45bn euros to the EU budget. So Romania netted about 4.9bn euros in 2015 from EU funds alone. Let me make it clear that these 4.9 billion euros come from a total of 28 EU Member states, not from one country alone. These funds are allocated under a budgetary heading called ERDF (European Regional Development Fund) mostly. If we ignore expenses with administration or liabilities like pensions, of the total expenditure for 2015 on transfer payments (EUR 112.4 billion) ERFD received about 35% (39.34bn euros).

Now, let's see how much was Austria's contribution to the ERDF per 2015. EU total expenditures per 2015: 155.9bn euros. Austria's contribution: 2.5bn (~1.6%). ERDF represented 35% of the total expenditure, which makes Austria's contribution to the ERDF in 2015 amount to 875m euros. This contribution was distributed to all the EU states which receive development funds. So each country could have received an equal share of 31.2 million euros from Austria. That's your share of contributions for each state in terms of development funding. Of course, in reality each country has different developmental needs, so it's likely that Poland got most of the money, followed by Lithuania, Hungary, Czech Republic etc. I don't have a precise breakdown of how much % each country received in 2015, but let's assume Romania got 100 millions from those 875 provided by Austria (though the sum is likely to be much lower, considering how many recipients there were). At the end of the same year, Austrian companies netted a profit of 430 million euros. In terms of trade, Austria exported worth of 2.54bn euros in Romania and imported worth of 1.41bn euros. Overall trade balance per 2015: +1.13bn euros.

The numbers are a lot bigger for Germany and the Netherlands.

So you see, you invest about a few tens of millions maybe and get hundreds of millions, because your companies own most of the oil processing and fuel distribution sector (OMV), construction materials sector (Wienerberger, JAF/Holver), residential construction (Strabag), banking sector (Erste Bank, Raiffeisen), auto distribution (Porsche), insurance (Generali Holding, Uniqa) etc etc etc.

That's why Germany, the Netherlands, Austria, France and other Western countries (well Austria is more Central-European, actually) supported Romania to become an EU member, because it was a good cow for you to milk, year after year. You get at least 5 times more profit than what you invest. Because labour is cheap, taxes are low and there's no extra tax on repatriation of profits, since capital is free to travel withing the Common market.

So these Eastern European states are like a kid who gets a candy, but in exchange for that candy, he is required to work and produce at least 5 more candies. You're welcome, Austria! Don't mention it. Same for Germany, the Netherlands and other Western countries.


1. i did not say we transfer money for rumanian's defence. BUT since u started name calling "pussified western countries" which supposedly let down europe's defence while at the same time pseudo glorifying rumania's effort to europe's defence, i thought it is quite amusing that the very same countries, as net contributors transfer money to rumania. the fact that these eu-funds infact exceed rumania's entire military budget is simply the cherry on top of it.
2. on behalf of austria and it's companies i wanna personally apologize for investing and creating jobs in rumania.
3. i'd strongly recommend u to either start or join an existing political movement for rumania to leave the eu
Australia Hazza54321
Pro Player
Winter Champion 2020 x2Donator 01
Posts: 8049
Joined: May 4, 2015
ESO: PrinceofBabu

Re: Non western countries

Post by Hazza54321 »

lordraphael wrote:
Dolan wrote:
lordraphael wrote:ye NATO should have stayed out of the east. It was arrogant to believe that you could just swallow former russian territory and they would do nothing.

Which former Russian territory has NATO swallowed?

http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/ ... _2344.html
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostblock# ... map_de.png
https://medienwerkstatt-online.de/lws_w ... 086&edit=0
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO#/med ... gement.svg

Go figure it out yourself dont bullshit around and tell me that those nations were independent during the cold war. They were essentially russian territory. It may not be right what russia does and how it acts but it surely shouldnt surprise anyone and the NATO should have expected this behaviour.

GEEEEEET ANGRY!
User avatar
Nauru Dolan
Ninja
Posts: 13064
Joined: Sep 17, 2015

Re: Non western countries

Post by Dolan »

knusch wrote:1. i did not say we transfer money for rumanian's defence. BUT since u started name calling "pussified western countries" which supposedly let down europe's defence while at the same time pseudo glorifying rumania's effort to europe's defence, i thought it is quite amusing that the very same countries, as net contributors transfer money to rumania. the fact that these eu-funds infact exceed rumania's entire military budget is simply the cherry on top of it.
2. on behalf of austria and it's companies i wanna personally apologize for investing and creating jobs in rumania.
3. i'd strongly recommend u to either start or join an existing political movement for rumania to leave the eu


1. My country's name is Romania, not Rumania. Maybe learn how to spell it first.

2. Austria is not even a Western country, geographically. Why are you so upset by my choice of words, when you're actually a Central European country?

3. Glorifying our efforts to defend Europe? The ones of today or the ones from the past?

4. What do EU funds have to do with a country's defence budget? And why would you compare a total sum transfered by an union of 28 states with one country's defence budget? What's the relevance?

5. Thanks so much for "creating jobs" here, that must have been your main concern, not the cheap labour. You came here to do us a favour, right?

6. Why would I do that? I'm not the one complaining about the EU, I just stated some facts. You presented the situation like we're a bunch of leaches and you're the benevolent victims. I just showed that you're far from being the innocent victims you're portraying yourself to be, it's more like your companies are the leeches.

No worries though, I've no problem if we Eastern European states created a Eastern European Union and left you drown in immigrants until they declare your Western union the new caliphate.
User avatar
Austria knusch
Pro Player
EWTDonator 01
Posts: 1113
Joined: Jul 25, 2015

Re: Non western countries

Post by knusch »

Dolan wrote:
knusch wrote:1. i did not say we transfer money for rumanian's defence. BUT since u started name calling "pussified western countries" which supposedly let down europe's defence while at the same time pseudo glorifying rumania's effort to europe's defence, i thought it is quite amusing that the very same countries, as net contributors transfer money to rumania. the fact that these eu-funds infact exceed rumania's entire military budget is simply the cherry on top of it.
2. on behalf of austria and it's companies i wanna personally apologize for investing and creating jobs in rumania.
3. i'd strongly recommend u to either start or join an existing political movement for rumania to leave the eu


1. My country's name is Romania, not Rumania. Maybe learn how to spell it first.

2. Austria is not even a Western country, geographically. Why are you so upset by my choice of words, when you're actually a Central European country?

3. Glorifying our efforts to defend Europe? The ones of today or the ones from the past?

4. What do EU funds have to do with a country's defence budget? And why would you compare a total sum transfered by an union of 28 states with one country's defence budget? What's the relevance?

5. Thanks so much for "creating jobs" here, that must have been your main concern, not the cheap labour. You came here to do us a favour, right?

6. Why would I do that? I'm not the one complaining about the EU, I just stated some facts. You presented the situation like we're a bunch of leaches and you're the benevolent victims. I just showed that you're far from being the innocent victims you're portraying yourself to be, it's more like your companies are the leeches.

No worries though, I've no problem if we Eastern European states created a Eastern European Union and left you drown in immigrants until they declare your Western union the new caliphate.


1. my bad. since u mentioned your partly of austrian descent u may be aware that in german it is called rumänien. anyway thanks for pointing out that in english it is romania

2. i never said austria is a western european country, geographically speaking. actually i didn’t even mention austria in the first place apart from referring to rapha’s link and how YUUGE austria-(hungary) was back then. so while i work on my spelling u may very well work on your reading comprehension skills.

3. todays efforts obviously since i dont have time for a history lession of romania’s glorious past.

4. im just gonna refer back to the post u quoted and the irony in it --> again reading comprehension skills

5. one could refer to the fundamental european idea of sustained peace through economic integration blablabla. Ofc companies have a profit motive, what is your point? Cant companies invest in another country, creating jobs and make a profit aswell? Kinda comes down to wether one believes it is a zero-sum game or not…

6.so u r not complaining about the eu, but rather about the „pussified western counters“ that basically make up the eu in essence, am i getting this right? Idk where u see me portraying myself as victim but w.e.

ps: gl with your eastern european states union lmao
User avatar
Nauru Dolan
Ninja
Posts: 13064
Joined: Sep 17, 2015

Re: Non western countries

Post by Dolan »

lordraphael wrote:either you are like 40 to 50 years old or you have lived all you life safe in france or wherever the hell you come from so dont talk about it like you know everything its getting really annoying.

I didn't mention all those things because I lived in 1968, lmao. I just read about those events and my parents also told me about them. Not sure what else you're trying to imply here. I lived safe in France? What does that mean? I surely don't know everything, but it's worth trying.

Its also funny how you pick up one 1 state while ignoring everything else. Poland DDR czechia ukraine etc where all satellite states of Russia they might have had independent internal politics but they pretty much couldnt decide shit without Sowjets in foreign affairs.

Even so, that's pretty far from being Russia territories, like you claimed.

Politics is not about what you would like to do but what is possible and reasonable to achieve. I dont see you saying that the NATO should interfere in the China /Tibet crysis and force CHina to give up Tibet, I dont see you saying they should accept taiwan into the NATO, I dont see you saying that the NATO should get rid of Turkey for being an autocracy.

Yes, I agree, politics must be realistic. And when many Eastern European countries were introduced in the EU and NATO, not all of them were ready. However, if we get down to numbers, you will see that Germany and other EU states have made more money from Eastern Europe than invested. Not to mention the human resources that your country tapped into. Lots of doctors, engineers and programmers from Eastern Europe are working in Germany and basically plugging a workforce deficit, caused by stagnating demographics.

But yeah moving closer to Russia and threaten the second strongest military power in the world yeah that seems reasonable. Its not a matter of being the right thing to do its a matter of what is smart . And expanding the NATO closer to russia simply is not smart.

Well it was part of a process of historical reparation. Just like Western Germany (BRD) made an effort to re-unite with Eastern Germany (DDR). Should you have just ignored historical issues and just refused to reunite with the DDR, just because they were a poorer state and they still are? Maybe Germany shouldn't have reunited, because Eastern Germany seems like it wasn't ready to reunite with the BRD. Why upset the Russians, by reuniting Germany?

Also nice finishing argument really great one, well done throw in some germany hate, either we are to militaristic or to peaceful cant do it right lol. Better do it like france, ahve a big military a shitload of debts and then ask for eurobonds so that germany can pay your debts off.

I don't hate Germany, I like Germany's strong manufacturing sector, its research etc, I just don't like Merkel's migration policy, her insistence on forcing every EU member to take in more migrants.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Which top 10 players do you wish to see listed?

All-time

Active last two weeks

Active last month

Supremacy

Treaty

Official

ESOC Patch

Treaty Patch

1v1 Elo

2v2 Elo

3v3 Elo

Power Rating

Which streams do you wish to see listed?

Twitch

Age of Empires III

Age of Empires IV