Non western countries

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Nauru Dolan
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Re: Non western countries

Post by Dolan »

duckzilla wrote:I second most parts you point out. I would just like to add my opinion in that Germany currently uses a very different idea of global politics than the US/Russia/China do and did in the past. While these countries heavily rely on 'hard power', e.g. their military power or a hard-line on regional policy, Germany cannot do so as all close neighbors play in the same team (EU...). It is much more beneficial for Germany to play its cards in the EU framework and get international significance in this way than to do so by wielding a large army (USA/Russia/China), intimidating its neighbors (China/Russia) or invading countries (Russia/USA). Furthermore, the EU (as well as, partially, G20 and other international political frameworks) is rather close to Germany's current and historical (see HRE) concept for politics: federalism and lots of negotiations on multiple levels, leading to small incremental changes. This is exactly where Germany's current strength is. Unfortunately, the public does not cheer incremental changes, but expects giant leaps forward - which is, in fact, rather stupid.

Well, yes, but at least until now, the EU hasn't been responsible for a country's defence policy. That has mostly been handled through NATO, where each country is required to spend at least 2% of its GDP on its military. So, I don't doubt that what you described is how politics is done in Germany (federalist decision-making), but how does that work with NATO and defence policies?

Interesting points about federalism, though.
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Re: Non western countries

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Post by Veni_Vidi_Vici_W »

Dolan wrote:But NATO is a military organisation, what would you expect it to be? The UN? How could they describe themselves? "We are a military organisation that will attack any state that attacks any member of our organisation". This is just official talk, official-ese, it's just a political statement, it's not part of the treaty. The treaty only talks about the members' obligations, not about the organisation's obligations to the world. It's a mutual defence organisation, not a defence charity.
And obviously, every organisation will try to describe itself in the most favourable terms on its own website. You have to look at the facts, though. Russia is the country that annexed and attacked sovereign states like Ukraine and Czechoslovakia in 1968, so history shows Russia has an expansionist policy towards its neighbours. So, NATO's enlargement in Eastern Europe was part of a historical reparation. Western Europe and the USA abandoned the East at the end of WW2 and left it under the control of the USSR. Churchill divided Europe's spheres of influence on a napkin, in a negotiation session with Stalin. Then Stalin invaded Romania under the pretext of "liberating" it from the Axes, even though Romania was already liberated. This is how they brought Communism here, by the force of tanks. And this has meant more than 42 years of demented social experiments that set the country back by decades and destroyed the lives of millions of people. What would you know about this, when you lived in a country far away from Russia?

- It is a military organisation, sure. It doesnt have to be a defense charity. Im just pointing out that what the NATO and their country members say and claim to stand for, is imo not in line with their actions. This is used by everyone to describe what the NATO is and does.
- Sure every organisation tries to describe itself in the most favorable way and there is 'offical' and 'political' talk . But that doesnt make it a good thing now does it, especially when its quite different from actual actions.
- I do look at the facts, what they have done rather than what they have said or claim to do. Same with every politician or organization. I never said Russia is doing everything by the book and in an ethical way, do NOT insinuate things please. I was merely pointing out that most people in "the west" are so brainwashed and propagated towards a negative look of Russia etc, that they are not even thinking about what "our west" has done or is actually doing, for fair comparison.
- In all your posts you like to rattle on about specific events and small stories that you have quickly looked up or perhaps ready in your mind. You could just be shorter with only the arguments and their neccessary support.
- Again, as i said above. I dont think Russia is "good" and does it all right. But you are just looking at it from one side, thats my issue. Sure the 'demented social experiments" etc is a bad thing. But do you have any idea what other western countries have done? For starters, dive into the history of colonialism and slavery.
- Dont come with just Russia attacked this and that, be honest and realize that NATO countries are doing the same thing, just in a slightly different, more sneaky way. Look at Iraq for example.
- I live (not lived, im still here ;)), in a country called the Netherlands. We have had a lot of issues with a guy called "Hitler", the loss of many lives via war, gas rooms and social experiments as well. And i also realize that Russia played a big role, taking lots of losses, in pushing him back to eventually free everyone. So idk why you would come with this.
Dolan wrote:And how did NATO break that commitment? Can you prove NATO installed the Ukrainian government? Did they simulate their elections too?

- By being so aggressive (even before Russia taking Crimea (back?)), more military bases close by, etc, they are imo breaking that committment of countries sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence and stimulating peace and democracy. I have said this already...
- I hope you still trust BBC news, have a look here about the involvement of NATO countries: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957. Which just demonstrates my point. Now, after the whole debacle ofc things got harder to pull off. However, whether its coincidence or still orchestrated in a way is hard to find out, fact remains that a few months later the guy they wanted out was forced out by sudden revolt and the guy they wanted in was then the new leader.
Dolan wrote:Veni, stop with this arrogant BS (ie, "Let me correct this for you", "very applicable here, to you, and to most"). I studied political science at the university. But I don't claim that I know some kind of cognitive bias that applies to "you and most people" because I'm so much smarter and it doesn't apply to me... Why would you assume this air of condescension with me? Did you study politics? Worked in politics? I did both.

- I do feel that it is very applicable. Actually everyone is in a way trapped by this, me too. You just have to get out of it and open your mind and seek the truth, which isnt easy I know.
- Whether you are smarter or not remains to be seen. I dont think you are stupid, but this is besides the issue. Smart and stupid is not even defined by just IQ and some studies anyway imo. I have studied politics, not worked in it gladly. But the fact that you have done both it seems, is perhaps part of the issue, and does refer to the cognitive dissonance subject btw.
Dolan wrote:What kind of "cognitive dissonance" did you identify in my arguments? Any examples? A dissonance between what and what? I agree with the rest of the argument that one should make an effort to seek out facts and think for oneself, instead of just being a follower. Though I wouldn't demonise the media so much, it just sounds too much like conspiracy theory BS.

- While it seems you are reading into stuff and at least thinking about it, it also seems you are not openly considering other options or at least researching them. One example is the Ukrainian issue which is just out there to read from all kind of 'official sources' as well. But instead of you reading about it, i have to dig it up and point it out.
- You can always disagree imo, but then you have to read and thought about both sides of the story and come with proper arguments.
- Wouldnt demonise the media? Sure not everything is bad, but there are plenty of examples which were/are falsely reported over and over. Take the IRAQ WMD for example.
People calling other people conspiracy theorists are usually the ones that are a) too naive b) not openly thinking about arguments and proof from the other side of the story c) end up with no more arguments or reasoning and then resort to blaming the other for a 'conspiracy theorist' or d) part of the 'conspiracy' itself

I'll leave it at this. Since I feel I have to repeat too much again, and even though you seem to make the effort into researching, I think its at least time to also read into arguments from the other side of stories and do some digging yourself, rather than just accept the more general propagated (and easier to find) answer. Until that point, you will remain convinced of things which are not neccessarily true imo. Whether its about west or east or usa or russia.
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Re: Non western countries

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The 2% is not a requirement (at least not yet)
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Re: Non western countries

Post by _RDX_ »

OMG! Veni isn't just a good caster, It will take like 2 days to read his post. Both Veni and Dolan are great socio-political nerds.
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Re: Non western countries

Post by vardar »

j_t_kirk wrote:
princeofkabul wrote:
the thing is, you're not "seeing" both sides. The moment you claimed that russia has democratic elections is bullshit. Russia is led by criminals pointed by.... any politician? Europe is treating them like criminals and so are russians who have fled the country to europe. The government is rotten.


I don't think that russia is a pefect democracy, but russia is better than western media tells us.

princeofkabul wrote:However it doesn't say that US is not.


I don't beleave that russia is better then the US or the US better than russia. The USA is maybe more democratic, but russia did't attack Iraq, Syria, Libya,... etc. for no reasons.


Lol -.-
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Re: Non western countries

Post by Dolan »

Veni_Vidi_Vici_W wrote:Im just pointing out that what the NATO and their country members say and claim to stand for, is imo not in line with their actions. This is used by everyone to describe what the NATO is and does.
- Sure every organisation tries to describe itself in the most favorable way and there is 'offical' and 'political' talk . But that doesnt make it a good thing now does it, especially when its quite different from actual actions.
- I do look at the facts, what they have done rather than what they have said or claim to do. Same with every politician or organization. I never said Russia is doing everything by the book and in an ethical way, do NOT insinuate things please. I was merely pointing out that most people in "the west" are so brainwashed and propagated towards a negative look of Russia etc, that they are not even thinking about what "our west" has done or is actually doing, for fair comparison.

It really just comes down to this: NATO is a common defence organisation, it's not the UN. NATO doesn't have to care about "the world", "human rights", "peace in the world" etc etc. It wasn't designed for that. If you read the Treaty articles, it's clear that its main purpose is to maintain peace between its members and provide a framework for mutual military defence. That's all really. There's no point in using melodramatic criteria to judge NATO's actions. If you're part of it, it works for your security, if you're not, you probably don't like it and seek to be part of another security umbrella organisation. Every country makes its own choices when it comes to defence strategy.
So, as you said, NATO claims to be "Snow White" in its public communications. So does everyone, including Putin, Assad, the Chinese Communist Party, Kim Jong-un and so on. What are you going to do about it? Sue them? Dismantle NATO because they aren't a Mother Theresa congregation that seeks peace in the world? The world is much more violent than you can see in your country, and that's also thanks to NATO's capacity to defend your country. If you don't have the preparedness and capacity to defend yourself in a violent world, it's likely that you will be a victim of aggression. So the only thing that maintains peace in the world is everyone's readiness and preparedness to defend their territory by military means. That's what secures your peace.

The difference is that since you live in a democratic country, you are free to criticise NATO, you can even take it to the streets and show your discontent. Heck, you can start an organisation that works against NATO. You are free to do that. If you lived in China or Russia, what do you think would happen if you created an organisation whose stated goal was to undermine China's or Russia's military policies? Would you prefer to live in Russia or China and criticise their military or live in Europe and criticise NATO? After all, you do have some degree of democratic control over these institutions. Your government is the result of democratic elections and these NATO officials are appointed by the members' governments.

- Again, as i said above. I dont think Russia is "good" and does it all right. But you are just looking at it from one side, thats my issue. Sure the 'demented social experiments" etc is a bad thing. But do you have any idea what other western countries have done? For starters, dive into the history of colonialism and slavery.
- Dont come with just Russia attacked this and that, be honest and realize that NATO countries are doing the same thing, just in a slightly different, more sneaky way. Look at Iraq for example.
- I live (not lived, im still here ;)), in a country called the Netherlands. We have had a lot of issues with a guy called "Hitler", the loss of many lives via war, gas rooms and social experiments as well. And i also realize that Russia played a big role, taking lots of losses, in pushing him back to eventually free everyone. So idk why you would come with this.

Let me make something clear. When I'm talking about Russia, I mean their leadership. I'm sure common Russian people are not interested in Syria or other such Russian military interventions. As Yurashic said, he doesn't have anything against NATO or the West, and probably many Russians don't. But they don't make these decisions. It's their leaders who keep thinking in these terms, that "we are a military power and we need to leverage that to our advantage, using whatever means, even dirty ones, if necessary". It's the FSB people, the oligarchs, Putin's close circle, the GRU who share this mentality of hegemonic influence.
USA too has a similar approach to maintaining its influence in the world. Europe? Not so much, Europe is not really interested in dominating the world as much as the USA. Most of the times when the USA wanted to intervene in the Middle East militarily, most European leaders were reluctant to do that. And when they joined the USA in its endeavours was mostly out of solidarity with them, rather than interest.
That's one big difference between NATO and other military powers. NATO doesn't annex territories, doesn't invade sovereign countries (without UN mandate or if there is a humanitarian catastrophe or crisis), doesn't mess with another country's electoral system, doesn't initiate cyber attacks on another country's infrastructure (China did this, Russia did this).
- By being so aggressive (even before Russia taking Crimea (back?)), more military bases close by, etc, they are imo breaking that committment of countries sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence and stimulating peace and democracy. I have said this already...
- I hope you still trust BBC news, have a look here about the involvement of NATO countries: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957. Which just demonstrates my point. Now, after the whole debacle ofc things got harder to pull off. However, whether its coincidence or still orchestrated in a way is hard to find out, fact remains that a few months later the guy they wanted out was forced out by sudden revolt and the guy they wanted in was then the new leader.

And when did those things described in the BBC article happen? In 2014, during the Euromaidan event, when people were getting killed in the streets. It was a period of social and political chaos. And both the USA and Russia tried to use that situation to their advantage. That's why the US representatives were so dismissive of Europe back then, because they knew they wouldn't agree to using dirty tricks to plant their own pawns in the Ukrainian government. That's what Nulland's "fuck the EU" means. It means the USA has no problem with playing dirty geopolitics and they have no patience with the EU's slow decisional process.
I have studied politics, not worked in it gladly. But the fact that you have done both it seems, is perhaps part of the issue, and does refer to the cognitive dissonance subject btw.

Or maybe I just have more practical experience in politics and can discern between idealistic/impractical/naive ideas and policies that actually work. People who never held a public position tend to think that the government is always evil and only works for the benefit of a global new-world-order conspiracy created by the Jews etc etc. It's just so childish. If you want to get rid of this paranoid mindset, just apply for a public office and work there for a few years and you'll convince yourself you won't see any such agents of global conspiracy. People have a tendency to mistrust power when they don't hold it and create hyperbolic stories about its intentions. The best cure is to join it and demystify it.
- While it seems you are reading into stuff and at least thinking about it, it also seems you are not openly considering other options or at least researching them. One example is the Ukrainian issue which is just out there to read from all kind of 'official sources' as well. But instead of you reading about it, i have to dig it up and point it out.
- You can always disagree imo, but then you have to read and thought about both sides of the story and come with proper arguments.
- Wouldnt demonise the media? Sure not everything is bad, but there are plenty of examples which were/are falsely reported over and over. Take the IRAQ WMD for example.
People calling other people conspiracy theorists are usually the ones that are a) too naive b) not openly thinking about arguments and proof from the other side of the story c) end up with no more arguments or reasoning and then resort to blaming the other for a 'conspiracy theorist' or d) part of the 'conspiracy' itself

Well, no matter how much I try to stay informed, it's possible I may have missed some pieces of news or information. So thanks for pointing that out. I have no problem to admit that I was wrong about something.
Most conspiracy theories are just paranoid ideation, born out of mistrust, frustration and a general sense of social/political disempowerment.
I'll leave it at this. Since I feel I have to repeat too much again, and even though you seem to make the effort into researching, I think its at least time to also read into arguments from the other side of stories and do some digging yourself, rather than just accept the more general propagated (and easier to find) answer. Until that point, you will remain convinced of things which are not neccessarily true imo. Whether its about west or east or usa or russia.

Again, I am aware not all about Russia is bad. They have lots of talented people, great natural relief, sexy women, but they have the same authoritarian type of government and administration they had during Communism. It's still a closed and controlled system that eliminates its enemies or critics. Why do you think so many Russians flee the country and settle in Western countries, but not so many Westerners leave their countries to settle in Russia? Is it because, as you said, both Russia and the West are bad guys, but they also have good sides, so they are equally bad and good?
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Re: Non western countries

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yoqpasa wrote:I called Erdogan ally of terrorists once, and Breeze went mad and started insulting me...poor guy.

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Re: Non western countries

Post by _NT_sven »

What NATO has ever done concerning China were about disputations of borders, international economical policies, etc.

Why would we really care about these issues, then? Government is not elected. I can hardly think of any reason seriously against such an indifferent attitude (if not endorsing it) except that one is either a loyal communist fighter or a fanatic Chinese nationalist.

The reason is that, whether the whole is affected or not, to whatever extent it is, the parts (common people's life) won't get much affected. It is easy to understand if you know the pros and cons of authoritarianism. But it is also true, that people of less proper education tend to succumb to the influence of almighty ideology.

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Re: Non western countries

Post by Snuden »

Lol! Why even reply to a Chinese?
It's a well know fact that they are less intelligent than most people from developed countries.

How do I know?

I have lived there for 6 long years.

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Re: Non western countries

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Re: Non western countries

Post by JakeyBoyTH »

kami_ryu wrote:
Snuden wrote:Lol! Why even reply to a Chinese?
It's a well know fact that they are less intelligent than most people from developed countries.

How do I know?

I have lived there for 6 long years.


Statements like that are basically bigotry though. You and I both know that we can't have that here; honestly even elsewhere statements like that do nothing. Let's please not have that.

Thats straight up racism not bigotry.
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Re: Non western countries

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Snuden wrote:Lol! Why even reply to a Chinese?
It's a well know fact that they are less intelligent than most people from developed countries.

How do I know?

I have lived there for 6 long years.

May u have 大象爆炸式的拉肚子
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Re: Non western countries

Post by _NT_sven »

rsy wrote:
Snuden wrote:Lol! Why even reply to a Chinese?
It's a well know fact that they are less intelligent than most people from developed countries.

How do I know?

I have lived there for 6 long years.

May u have 大象爆炸式的拉肚子


That's an interesting way of expression...
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Re: Non western countries

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There ARE congress elections in china (and i've voted 2 times). And it's the senate who make the laws in china, not the "chairman" or minister. It's theoratically the same as western countries.
(But it doesnt really work lol.)
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fei123456 wrote:There ARE congress elections in china (and i've voted 2 times). And it's the senate who make the laws in china, not the "chairman" or minister. It's theoratically the same as western countries.
(But it doesnt really work lol.)

tbh every country is democratic because if the people didn't like the government they would overthrow it
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Re: Non western countries

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Laurence Drake wrote:
fei123456 wrote:There ARE congress elections in china (and i've voted 2 times). And it's the senate who make the laws in china, not the "chairman" or minister. It's theoratically the same as western countries.
(But it doesnt really work lol.)

tbh every country is democratic because if the people didn't like the government they would overthrow it


That's not correct. There are just different purposes of elections in authoritarian systems (semi-competitive or non-competitive elections). There elections are being held mostly to make the opposition visible, consolidate the power held by the government (party) and give the people the illusion of "being considered". It's really not about reflecting the people's will (sometimes that might be even good) or encouraging a political discourse within the citizens. And I'm not saying thats a bad or good thing per sé, not every form of government works for every country.
An overthrow depends on many other things, too.

BTT: I actually like Dolan's last post, that was very precise for the most part. NATOs sole purpose is to be a military alliance.
There's a lot to be told about the EUs future plans for geopolitics but since it's just about NATO right here, I will save that up

(I really didn't wanna participate in this thread since it has gotten so toxic but oh well..)
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Re: Non western countries

Post by Laurence Drake »

jesus3 wrote:
Laurence Drake wrote:
fei123456 wrote:There ARE congress elections in china (and i've voted 2 times). And it's the senate who make the laws in china, not the "chairman" or minister. It's theoratically the same as western countries.
(But it doesnt really work lol.)

tbh every country is democratic because if the people didn't like the government they would overthrow it


That's not correct. There are just different purposes of elections in authoritarian systems (semi-competitive or non-competitive elections). There elections are being held mostly to make the opposition visible, consolidate the power held by the government (party) and give the people the illusion of "being considered". It's really not about reflecting the people's will (sometimes that might be even good) or encouraging a political discourse within the citizens. And I'm not saying thats a bad or good thing per sé, not every form of government works for every country.
An overthrow depends on many other things, too.

BTT: I actually like Dolan's last post, that was very precise for the most part. NATOs sole purpose is to be a military alliance.
There's a lot to be told about the EUs future plans for geopolitics but since it's just about NATO right here, I will save that up

(I really didn't wanna participate in this thread since it has gotten so toxic but oh well..)

haha wrong

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Re: Non western countries

Post by rsy »

Laurence Drake wrote:
fei123456 wrote:There ARE congress elections in china (and i've voted 2 times). And it's the senate who make the laws in china, not the "chairman" or minister. It's theoratically the same as western countries.
(But it doesnt really work lol.)

tbh every country is democratic because if the people didn't like the government they would overthrow it

Would u say that the government of Venezuela is democratic?
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Re: Non western countries

Post by Laurence Drake »

rsy wrote:
Laurence Drake wrote:
fei123456 wrote:There ARE congress elections in china (and i've voted 2 times). And it's the senate who make the laws in china, not the "chairman" or minister. It's theoratically the same as western countries.
(But it doesnt really work lol.)

tbh every country is democratic because if the people didn't like the government they would overthrow it

Would u say that the government of Venezuela is democratic?

I meant every stable country

Venezuela is a failed state at this point
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Re: Non western countries

Post by JakeyBoyTH »

Laurence Drake wrote:haha wrong
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Re: Non western countries

Post by Djigit »

Good thread. @fightinfrenchman @evilcheadar @gustavusadolphus @Dr. D1CK what's your take on thish?
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Re: Non western countries

Post by Horsemen »

wow i did not remember this thread
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Re: Non western countries

Post by TNT333 »

China next superpower, Russia also cool, America is satan.
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Re: Non western countries

Post by null95 »

NATO is a military organization headed by the United States against the Soviet Union. Now that the Soviet Union is dead, NATO still exists. It may not need a huge organization like NATO to confront the current Russia. The European Union with Germany and France at its core will establish European integration to pursue economic independence and security. A united Europe will become a harmonious and beautiful, China and Russia are new powerful forces, but this is what the Americans do not want to see. So in fact NATO has become a weapon for the United States to control both the European Union and Russia. For the United States, disrupting EU unity is a long-term policy, and NATO is a good tool
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Re: Non western countries

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