Religion

This is for discussions about news, politics, sports, other games, culture, philosophy etc.

Are You Religious?

Yes
24
29%
No
47
57%
No, but I'm spiritual
10
12%
Other (leave in comments, please)
2
2%
 
Total votes: 83

United States of America XeeleeFlower
Retired Contributor
Xeelee Patron
Posts: 1650
Joined: Aug 28, 2016
Location: Netherlands

Religion

Post by XeeleeFlower »

Here's a fantastic discussion that may get locked at some point since people cannot seem to discuss things politely and with respect. I am remaining optimistic, however, and hope that people can be decent towards each other. I will certainly try. In any case, please vote. I am trying to gauge where the community stands and would like to have/read a decent discussion as to why people think/feel the way they think/feel with regards to religion/spirituality. If you wish to just place your vote, that's okay too. :smile: Thank you for your time! :flowers:
Time is wise and our wounds seem to heal to the rhythm of aging,
But our past is a ghost fading out that at night it’s still haunting.

http://www.galactanet.com/oneoff/theegg_mod.html
User avatar
No Flag Jaeger
Jaeger
Posts: 4492
Joined: Feb 28, 2015

Re: Religion

Post by Jaeger »

I am not religious simply because nobody has shown me evidence of a god existing. If someone has some, please do share. Otherwise, you are being irrational by being religious.
last time i cryed was because i stood on Lego
User avatar
Germany Lukas_L99
Pro Player
Donator 01
Posts: 2059
Joined: Nov 15, 2015
ESO: Lukas_L99
Location: Lübeck

Re: Religion

Post by Lukas_L99 »

I don't need Religion
User avatar
United States of America Papist
Retired Contributor
Donator 03
Posts: 2602
Joined: Mar 29, 2015
ESO: Papist

Re: Religion

Post by Papist »

ovi12 wrote:I am not religious simply because nobody has shown me evidence of a god existing. If someone has some, please do share. Otherwise, you are being irrational by being religious.


How was the universe created?
The function of man is to live, not to exist.
No Flag lejend
Jaeger
Posts: 2461
Joined: Nov 15, 2015

Re: Religion

Post by lejend »

XeeleeFlower wrote:Here's a fantastic discussion that may get locked at some point since people cannot seem to discuss things politely and with respect. I am remaining optimistic, however, and hope that people can be decent towards each other. I will certainly try. In any case, please vote. I am trying to gauge where the community stands and would like to have/read a decent discussion as to why people think/feel the way they think/feel with regards to religion/spirituality. If you wish to just place your vote, that's okay too. :smile: Thank you for your time! :flowers:


Why do you ask? Are you shilling for one belief or another?
User avatar
Tuvalu gibson
Ninja
ECL Reigning Champs
Posts: 13597
Joined: May 4, 2015
Location: USA

Re: Religion

  • Quote

Post by gibson »

ovi12 wrote:I am not religious simply because nobody has shown me evidence of a god existing. If someone has some, please do share. Otherwise, you are being irrational by being religious.
Well its a little more complicated then that. If you demand hard evidence for belief you'll end up not believing anything.

Papist wrote:
ovi12 wrote:I am not religious simply because nobody has shown me evidence of a god existing. If someone has some, please do share. Otherwise, you are being irrational by being religious.


How was the universe created?

Lol the classic "take something we don't understand and substitute God" argument. Well God doesn't explain anything, in fact he just makes things more complex. How was he created. How does his magic work etc etc
User avatar
Turkey HUMMAN
Lancer
Posts: 817
Joined: Apr 16, 2017
ESO: HUMMAN

Re: Religion

Post by HUMMAN »

If you are not stupid and look objective, people who believe Jesus believe because of their parents, people who believe Muhammed believe it because of their society. When you see that, all the universal holiness of religion diminishes in the society.
Image
User avatar
Netherlands Goodspeed
Retired Contributor
Posts: 13002
Joined: Feb 27, 2015

Re: Religion

Post by Goodspeed »

Ah the lejend is still with us :smile:
@gibson I'm curious, how did your parents respond when you told them of your change of heart?
No Flag deleted_user
Ninja
Posts: 14364
Joined: Mar 26, 2015

Re: Religion

Post by deleted_user »

could b good could b bad could b neither could b both
No Flag lejend
Jaeger
Posts: 2461
Joined: Nov 15, 2015

Re: Religion

Post by lejend »

The Day Dostoyevsky Discovered the Meaning of Life in a Dream

One November night in the 1870s, legendary Russian writer Fyodor Dostoyevsky (November 11, 1821–February 9, 1881) discovered the meaning of life in a dream — or, at least, the protagonist in his final short story did.

The story begins with the narrator wandering the streets of St. Petersburg on “a gloomy night, the gloomiest night you can conceive,” dwelling on how others have ridiculed him all his life and slipping into nihilism with the “terrible anguish” of believing that nothing matters. He peers into the glum sky, gazes at a lone little star, and contemplates suicide; two months earlier, despite his destitution, he had bought an “excellent revolver” with the same intention, but the gun had remained in his drawer since. Suddenly, as he is staring at the star, a little girl of about eight, wearing ragged clothes and clearly in distress, grabs him by the arm and inarticulately begs his help. But the protagonist, disenchanted with life, shoos her away and returns to the squalid room he shares with a drunken old captain, furnished with “a sofa covered in American cloth, a table with some books, two chairs and an easy-chair, old, incredibly old, but still an easy-chair.”

As he sinks into the easy-chair to think about ending his life, he finds himself haunted by the image of the little girl, leading him to question his nihilistic disposition. Dostoyevsky writes:

I knew for certain that I would shoot myself that night, but how long I would sit by the table — that I did not know. I should certainly have shot myself, but for that little girl.

You see: though it was all the same to me, I felt pain, for instance. If any one were to strike me, I should feel pain. Exactly the same in the moral sense: if anything very pitiful happened, I would feel pity, just as I did before everything in life became all the same to me. I had felt pity just before: surely, I would have helped a child without fail. Why did I not help the little girl, then? It was because of an idea that came into my mind then. When she was pulling at me and calling to me, suddenly a question arose before me, which I could not answer. The question was an idle one; but it made me angry. I was angry because of my conclusion, that if I had already made up my mind that I would put an end to myself to-night, then now more than ever before everything in the world should be all the same to me. Why was it that I felt it was not all the same to me, and pitied the little girl? I remember I pitied her very much: so much that I felt a pain that was even strange and incredible in my situation…

It seemed clear that if I was a man and not a cipher yet, and until I was changed into a cipher, then I was alive and therefore could suffer, be angry and feel shame for my actions. Very well. But if I were to kill myself, for instance, in two hours from now, what is the girl to me, and what have I to do with shame or with anything on earth? I am going to be a cipher, an absolute zero. Could my consciousness that I would soon absolutely cease to exist, and that therefore nothing would exist, have not the least influence on my feeling of pity for the girl or on my sense of shame for the vileness I had committed?


From the moral, he veers into the existential:

It became clear to me that life and the world, as it were, depended upon me. I might even say that the world had existed for me alone. I should shoot myself, and then there would be no world at all, for me at least. Not to mention that perhaps there will really be nothing for any one after me, and the whole world, as soon as my consciousness is extinguished, will also be extinguished like a phantom, as part of my consciousness only, and be utterly abolished, since perhaps all this world and all these men are myself alone.


Beholding “these new, thronging questions,” he plunges into a contemplation of what free will really means. In a passage that calls to mind John Cage’s famous aphorism on the meaning of life — “No why. Just here.” — and George Lucas’s assertion that “life is beyond reason,” Dostoyevsky suggests through his protagonist that what gives meaning to life is life itself:

One strange consideration suddenly presented itself to me. If I had previously lived on the moon or in Mars, and I had there been dishonored and disgraced so utterly that one can only imagine it sometimes in a dream or a nightmare, and if I afterwards found myself on earth and still preserved a consciousness of what I had done on the other planet, and if I knew besides that I would never by any chance return, then, if I were to look at the moon from the earth — would it be all the same to me or not? Would I feel any shame for my action or not? The questions were idle and useless, for the revolver was already lying before me, and I knew with all my being that this thing would happen for certain: but the questions excited me to rage. I could not die now, without having solved this first. In a word, that little girl saved me, for my questions made me postpone pulling the trigger.


Just as he ponders this, the protagonist slips into sleep in the easy-chair, but it’s a sleep that has the quality of wakeful dreaming. In one of many wonderful semi-asides, Dostoyevsky peers at the eternal question of why we have dreams:

Dreams are extraordinarily strange. One thing appears with terrifying clarity, with the details finely set like jewels, while you leap over another, as though you did not notice it at all — space and time, for instance. It seems that dreams are the work not of mind but of desire, not of the head but of the heart… In a dream things quite incomprehensible come to pass. For instance, my brother died five years ago. Sometimes I see him in a dream: he takes part in my affairs, and we are very excited, while I, all the time my dream goes on, know and remember perfectly that my brother is dead and buried. Why am I not surprised that he, though dead, is still near me and busied about me? Why does my mind allow all that?


In this strange state, the protagonist dreams that he takes his revolver and points it at his heart — not his head, where he had originally intended to shoot himself. After waiting a second or two, his dream-self pulls the trigger quickly. Then something remarkable happens:

I felt no pain, but it seemed to me that with the report, everything in me was convulsed, and everything suddenly extinguished. It was terribly black all about me. I became as though blind and numb, and I lay on my back on something hard. I could see nothing, neither could I make any sound. People were walking and making a noise about me: the captain’s bass voice, the landlady’s screams… Suddenly there was a break. I am being carried in a closed coffin. I feel the coffin swinging and I think about that, and suddenly for the first time the idea strikes me that I am dead, quite dead. I know it and do not doubt it; I cannot see nor move, yet at the same time I feel and think. But I am soon reconciled to that, and as usual in a dream I accept the reality without a question.

Now I am being buried in the earth. Every one leaves me and I am alone, quite alone. I do not stir… I lay there and — strange to say — I expected nothing, accepting without question that a dead man has nothing to expect. But it was damp. I do not know how long passed — an hour, a few days, or many days. Suddenly, on my left eye which was closed, a drop of water fell, which had leaked through the top of the grave. In a minute fell another, then a third, and so on, every minute. Suddenly, deep indignation kindled in my heart and suddenly in my heart I felt physical pain. ‘It’s my wound,’ I thought. ‘It’s where I shot myself. The bullet is there.’ And all the while the water dripped straight on to my closed eye. Suddenly, I cried out, not with a voice, for I was motionless, but with all my being, to the arbiter of all that was being done to me.

“Whosoever thou art, if thou art, and if there exists a purpose more intelligent than the things which are now taking place, let it be present here also. But if thou dost take vengeance upon me for my foolish suicide, then know, by the indecency and absurdity of further existence, that no torture whatever that may befall me, can ever be compared to the contempt which I will silently feel, even through millions of years of martyrdom.”

I cried out and was silent. Deep silence lasted a whole minute. One more drop even fell. But I knew and believed, infinitely and steadfastly, that in a moment everything would infallibly change. Suddenly, my grave opened. I do not know whether it had been uncovered and opened, but I was taken by some dark being unknown to me, and we found ourselves in space. Suddenly, I saw. It was deep night; never, never had such darkness been! We were borne through space and were already far from the earth. I asked nothing of him who led me. I was proud and waited. I assured myself that I was not afraid, and my heart melted with rapture at the thought that I was not afraid. I do not remember how long we rushed through space, and I cannot imagine it. It happened as always in a dream when you leap over space and time and the laws of life and mind, and you stop only there where your heart delights.


Through the thick darkness, he sees a star — the same little star he had seen before shooing the girl away. As the dream continues, the protagonist describes a sort of transcendence akin to what is experienced during psychedelic drug trips or in deep meditation states:

Suddenly a familiar yet most overwhelming emotion shook me through. I saw our sun. I knew that it could not be our sun, which had begotten our earth, and that we were an infinite distance away, but somehow all through me I recognized that it was exactly the same sun as ours, its copy and double. A sweet and moving delight echoed rapturously through my soul. The dear power of light, of that same light which had given me birth, touched my heart and revived it, and I felt life, the old life, for the first time since my death.


He finds himself in another world, Earthlike in every respect, except “everything seemed to be bright with holiday, with a great and sacred triumph, finally achieved” — a world populated by “children of the sun,” happy people whose eyes “shone with a bright radiance” and whose faces “gleamed with wisdom, and with a certain consciousness, consummated in tranquility.” The protagonist exclaims:

Oh, instantly, at the first glimpse of their faces I understood everything, everything!


Conceding that “it was only a dream,” he nonetheless asserts that “the sensation of the love of those beautiful and innocent people” was very much real and something he carried into wakeful life on Earth. Awaking in his easy-chair at dawn, he exclaims anew with rekindled gratitude for life:

Oh, now — life, life! I lifted my hands and called upon the eternal truth, not called, but wept. Rapture, ineffable rapture exalted all my being. Yes, to live…


Dostoyevsky concludes with his protagonist’s reflection on the shared essence of life, our common conquest of happiness and kindness:

All are tending to one and the same goal, at least all aspire to the same goal, from the wise man to the lowest murderer, but only by different ways. It is an old truth, but there is this new in it: I cannot go far astray. I saw the truth. I saw and know that men could be beautiful and happy, without losing the capacity to live upon the earth. I will not, I cannot believe that evil is the normal condition of men… I saw the truth, I did not invent it with my mind. I saw, saw, and her living image filled my soul for ever. I saw her in such consummate perfection that I cannot possibly believe that she was not among men. How can I then go astray? … The living image of what I saw will be with me always, and will correct and guide me always. Oh, I am strong and fresh, I can go on, go on, even for a thousand years.

[…]

And it is so simple… The one thing is — love thy neighbor as thyself — that is the one thing. That is all, nothing else is needed. You will instantly find how to live.


Image

Really makes you think. :hmm:
No Flag deleted_user0
Ninja
Posts: 13004
Joined: Apr 28, 2020

Re: Religion

  • Quote

Post by deleted_user0 »

You should live your life such, that upon finding out that god does or does not exist (depending on your beliefs), you would still not change a thing. And thus the question becomes irrelevant.
User avatar
Netherlands Goodspeed
Retired Contributor
Posts: 13002
Joined: Feb 27, 2015

Re: Religion

Post by Goodspeed »

umeu wrote:You should live your life such, that upon finding out that god does or does not exist (depending on your beliefs), you would still not change a thing. And thus the question becomes irrelevant.
I like this.
User avatar
Turkey LONEWOLF123
Dragoon
Posts: 298
Joined: Jun 20, 2016
ESO: LONE_WOLF123

Re: Religion

  • Quote

Post by LONEWOLF123 »

HUMMAN wrote:If you are not stupid and look objective, people who believe Jesus believe because of their parents, people who believe Muhammed believe it because of their society. When you see that, all the universal holiness of religion diminishes in the society.

only uneducated people do that ignorant people because they dont care / are too lazy to make a research . I will give some examples from Turkey . (not 100% true just general ) if u ask somebody in Istanbul why are you muslim they are like bec its the true way then you ask why is this the true way they say "i dont know" (real story) . But go to Konya in Turkey ask why are you muslim they will begin to explain why its the true way , why they prefer islam . Its about education and will in you to belief or not ,
Humman if you ask me why are you muslim i will never say bec my society is.
No Flag deleted_user0
Ninja
Posts: 13004
Joined: Apr 28, 2020

Re: Religion

Post by deleted_user0 »

just because that's not the reason they will give when asked, doesn't mean its not the reason why it's actually so. It's quite obvious that had they not been raised in a society that taught them these things, it's very unlikely that they would've believed these things. And that's regardless of whether their beliefs are true or not.
User avatar
Tokelau jesus3
Jaeger
Posts: 2353
Joined: Aug 5, 2016

Re: Religion

Post by jesus3 »

Religion itself gave (and in some parts of the world still gives) firm, understandable and universal rules to people where no other coherent set of rules existed (just a monarchs/rulers despotism). Also most religions preach a certain type of "equality" before god (I think only Hinduism of the big religions doesn't, correct me if I'm wrong) which was very new and encouraging for people of lower social status. At the same time it gave monarchs the possibility of instrumentalisation, a cause for whatever which would be easier accepted than "I just want more land". So most rulers also went with that and played "faithful" to win their people's consent and acceptance.

Nowadays it depends on the region or country you live in wether you are religious or not, it might be "just" handed down by your parents or still be necessary for at least some kind of relief (e.g. in war torn countries theres usually an increase in religiousness, also in developing/underdeveloped countries). Of course socialisation remains the most important factor, children don't choose to be religious, they just believe their parents and mimic them as they are most childrens very first idols.

Sadly the instrumentalisation part experiences another aggressive revival rn which polarises rather than brings (at least) tolerance. I hope we can all accept and respect each other at some point though and quickly repell any hatespeech by demagoges in the future before it takes root in people's minds too much.
Image
Brazil VITAOOOOOOOOO1
Skirmisher
Posts: 150
Joined: Aug 8, 2015
ESO: VITAOOOOOOOOO1

Re: Religion

Post by VITAOOOOOOOOO1 »

God does not dwell in temples made by human hands, do not pray like the hypocrites in their temples, If you pray, pray in secret, then your father will listen to you.
You only have to follow 2 rules Love your father and love your neighbor. How you love the father? loving the neighbor.
User avatar
Netherlands dietschlander
Lancer
Posts: 944
Joined: Oct 8, 2015
Location: Dietschland

Re: Religion

Post by dietschlander »

I'm Christian. I suppose about half of the peeps in my life are (family and work).
I'm 100% sure my mother and boss are going to live in heaven - would like to get that faith to :)
Theres going to be a dam, the great dam and we'll let the beavers pay for it - Edeholland 2016
Anyway, nuancing isn't your forte, so I'll agree with you like I would with a 8 year old: violence is bad, don't do hard drugs and stay in school Benj98
United States of America XeeleeFlower
Retired Contributor
Xeelee Patron
Posts: 1650
Joined: Aug 28, 2016
Location: Netherlands

Re: Religion

Post by XeeleeFlower »

lejend wrote: Why do you ask?
I gave my reasons for asking :smile:
Are you shilling for one belief or another?
No

Beautiful second post by the way. Thank you for taking the time to post it. I enjoyed reading it. :flowers:
Time is wise and our wounds seem to heal to the rhythm of aging,
But our past is a ghost fading out that at night it’s still haunting.

http://www.galactanet.com/oneoff/theegg_mod.html
User avatar
Finland princeofkabul
Pro Player
NWC LAN Top 8EPL Reigning Champs
Posts: 2372
Joined: Feb 28, 2015
ESO: Princeofkabul
Location: In retirement home with Sam and Vic

Re: Religion

Post by princeofkabul »

Religions have caused nothing but trouble and hatred. And people have misused it for gaining power in society. Religions are pointless and shouldn't exist in modern world.
Chairman of Washed Up clan
Leader of the Shady Swedes
Team Manager of the Blockhouse Boomers
User avatar
Nauru Dolan
Ninja
Posts: 13064
Joined: Sep 17, 2015

Re: Religion

Post by Dolan »

I try not to wallow in any kind of self-delusion.
User avatar
No Flag Jaeger
Jaeger
Posts: 4492
Joined: Feb 28, 2015

Re: Religion

Post by Jaeger »

Papist wrote:
ovi12 wrote:I am not religious simply because nobody has shown me evidence of a god existing. If someone has some, please do share. Otherwise, you are being irrational by being religious.


How was the universe created?

I don't know how the universe came into existence (or weather it did, or has always been there).

If you claim that a god did it you must provide evidence for this.
last time i cryed was because i stood on Lego
User avatar
No Flag Jaeger
Jaeger
Posts: 4492
Joined: Feb 28, 2015

Re: Religion

Post by Jaeger »

gibson wrote:
ovi12 wrote:I am not religious simply because nobody has shown me evidence of a god existing. If someone has some, please do share. Otherwise, you are being irrational by being religious.
Well its a little more complicated then that. If you demand hard evidence for belief you'll end up not believing anything.

I'm not sure what you mean. I believe plenty of things and most of them are based on evidence.
last time i cryed was because i stood on Lego
User avatar
Netherlands Goodspeed
Retired Contributor
Posts: 13002
Joined: Feb 27, 2015

Re: Religion

Post by Goodspeed »

What about if we are living in a computer simulation? Would its creator be our god? Would it still be religion? Not quite as spiritual of an idea, but at least this one makes some sense.
No Flag deleted_user0
Ninja
Posts: 13004
Joined: Apr 28, 2020

Re: Religion

Post by deleted_user0 »

Goodspeed wrote:What about if we are living in a computer simulation? Would its creator be our god? Would it still be religion? Not quite as spiritual of an idea, but at least this one makes some sense.


I'm actually dabling with this idea recently. A short story about a little kid who's basically a genius, and he creates a program called Afterlife or Genesis, and it allows the people in his world to be uploaded into his program, and they go to a new world. And they worship him as the creator there. But because he's at first a kid, he's not fully in control of his emotions, so he's still an angry god at times, but later he grows up and becomes a more just and loving god. Or something of that sort XD Its just an idea yet, maybe we can have a brainstorm session about it.
User avatar
India rsy
Jaeger
Donator 01
Posts: 2202
Joined: Feb 27, 2015
Location: Lashka

Re: Religion

Post by rsy »

umeu wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:What about if we are living in a computer simulation? Would its creator be our god? Would it still be religion? Not quite as spiritual of an idea, but at least this one makes some sense.


I'm actually dabling with this idea recently. A short story about a little kid who's basically a genius, and he creates a program called Afterlife or Genesis, and it allows the people in his world to be uploaded into his program, and they go to a new world. And they worship him as the creator there. But because he's at first a kid, he's not fully in control of his emotions, so he's still an angry god at times, but later he grows up and becomes a more just and loving god. Or something of that sort XD Its just an idea yet, maybe we can have a brainstorm session about it.

You could make a religion out of this!

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests

Which top 10 players do you wish to see listed?

All-time

Active last two weeks

Active last month

Supremacy

Treaty

Official

ESOC Patch

Treaty Patch

1v1 Elo

2v2 Elo

3v3 Elo

Power Rating

Which streams do you wish to see listed?

Twitch

Age of Empires III

Age of Empires IV