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Netherlands Goodspeed
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06 Aug 2017, 17:47

EAGLEMUT wrote:@Goodspeed AoEO actually did a lot of new things, for example the whole way PvE is handled is very distinct from any other age game in the series and it did attract a new type of playerbase. The game also has a new artistic style and generally is more faster paced than the rest. If anything, you could argue AoEO did too much new stuff and that's why it didn't appeal to the AoE2 playerbase as much. Heck, it's even been described as a different genre of "F2P MMORTS". It's mechanically close at its core, but wasn't really presented like that.
They did new things outside of the core gameplay but that's not what counts.

If you consider things like lack of shift click and horrible unit pathing a positive, I guess AoE2 really is the game to play.
It's all part of the game's charm, somewhat comparable to the differences between Starcraft 1 and 2. Indeed it can be seen as a positive just as easily. Important to note is that for example the unit pathing isn't buggy. It's clunky but consistent so it's not an issue when you get used to it. Things like shift-click are quality of life improvements that may make the game more accessible to new players, but also limit the skill cap. Part of the reason why AoC is such a fun game to watch on a top level is because what the players do is so impressive.

As for me, I consider AoE2 a great game (I played it for thousands of hours as a kid), but after playing AoE3, the controls and unit behavior in general are just unacceptably clunky to me and I can't go back. It's literally unplayable.
You're entitled to your opinion. I think unplayable is a bit of a stretch, though. If you were talking about SC I would've said fair enough, but AoE2 really isn't as bad as all that. Perhaps you never gave it a chance.

IMO a complete remake or some sort of a huge quality-of-life patch is exactly what the game needs.
A good remake would be nice. Emphasis on good. To remake a masterpiece, especially an RTS, you need a big budget. It's an absolute necessity.
Whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

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France kami_ryu
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06 Aug 2017, 18:43

SC1 macro is easier than AoC
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Netherland Antilles Laurence Drake
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06 Aug 2017, 20:38

anyone wanna download some ram?
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06 Aug 2017, 23:50

You guys seem to be very pessimistic, some of you speak like you've already played Empires Apart and you have a wide experience on it, while obviously this is not the case. I'm not saying it is a great game because i don't know, i haven't played it either, but at least i reserve my judgement for when i will actually try the game. Besides that, i cannot deny that the game is deeply inspired by AoE2 but at the same time i'd not call it a "poorly done remake of a 20 years old game", for the simple reason that it is not such. The developers are really working hard and they aren't trying to make a game that can provide the highest possible income with the lowest possible effort. Of course you do not care about how hard the developers work, you only care about the final product, and that's right. But at the same time the fact that some people are investing part of their lives on this makes me want to call it a "half-assed" product a lot less.

Another point that i'd like to make is that if i, in 2017, want to play a classic RTS, i have to play a 20 years old one which is undoubtedly a very good game, but at the same time has its flaws and shows its age. As far as i know the goal of Empires Apart is to take the core gameplay of classic medieval RTSs and build it into a more modern engine, hopefully at the same time also fixing some of AoE2's flaws, like bland civilizations, no shift click, isometric graphics based on sprites, outdated UI, lack of built in spectator mode, poor pathing, bad random map generation, bad water/land balance, slow gameplay and so on, i guess the list doesn't end here. Obviously there is also going to be some creative input from the dev team, Empires Apart is not just a revamping of AoE2: different civs (with all the variety thst this brings), different "age up" mechanics (split between economy and military), challenges, survival mode, new modding support, different relics from aoe2, units with active and passive abilities and heroes are all new features that will eventually come with Empires Apart.

I don't want to specifically call any of you out because i don't think it matters, but i just can't understand where does this pre-delusion/bias and the weird assumption that EA is a bad game come from. True, some studios already took an attempt at something like this (Feudal Wars, 0 A.D., heck even AoEO might be considered part of this) and Empires Apart does not nearly have the budget of a triple A game, but those were different games with different purposes anyway and most importantly, if it didn't go very well it does not mean that EA is necessarily going to be a let down as well.

I hope that you guys will give it a chance even if you are not convinced. I have been following the developement for a long time and i think that the dev team, despite small and limited, is very capable of delivering a good product.

P.S.: Yes, i am a filthy shill.

Edit: also the fact that the devs are seeking for the players' feedback through a beta looks like a very positive thing to me. At the very least this means that they care about what they are making.
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Czech Republic EAGLEMUT
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07 Aug 2017, 00:30

I do care and I will give it a chance! :flowers:
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Germany lordraphael
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07 Aug 2017, 01:15

Darwin_ wrote:age of empires 2 is a horrible game imo. I have played it a fair amount and there are just so many things about it that suck and that other games have done much better. The ui sucks so much, hotkeys suck, unit pathing and interaction sucks, a lot of things unnecessarily complicated (need to press 2 hotkeys to make a building instead of one), needing to reseed farms is annoying and pointless (why not make it cost more and be infinite??). Honestly the graphics are really not that good, the civs feel bland, unique units are either bland or overpowered, maps are bland, gameplay is slow and boring compared to modern rts' (even aoe3). In general the game just feels clunky, poorly designed at times, and really just outdated. Now all this is is my opinion and I welcome you to disagree with me because I want to understand why anyone would even like aoe2 apart from nostalgia.

Now, aoe3 has its issues, im not going to ignore that fact. What I am saying is that aoe3 just does so many things way better than aoe2, and I also think that most of the issues in aoe3 are very fixable, while many of the issues in aoe 2 lie within the engine itself.

aoe 2 did age very well. Aoe 2 hotkey system is actually better than aoe 3 one ( it basically is the same as sc2 one, because it differentiate between eco and military building allowing hotkeys to be double binded ) Unit pathing is annoying,yes, but the way physics work, where you can dodge mangonel or arrow fire with clever micro is great and farm reseeding just allows for a higher skill ceiling at macro and later in the game you can queue farms so it doesnt matter.
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United States of America Darwin_
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07 Aug 2017, 02:19

@gamevideo113 I am extremely excited to try out empires apart because the graphics look spectacular and you are totally right about with your point about the lack of modern, well made, classic-feeling rts'. I think that in this day and age, products (and it seems like games as well) are being judged more and more on how innovative they are and less and less on how well made they are, which I think is bad because innovation isn't really necessary all the time. Sometimes all that needs to be done to fulfil the customers' desire is just to perfect an already existing idea, which seems like the goal of EA.
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Netherlands Jerom
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07 Aug 2017, 06:53

I find it kinda weird to claim that aoc will always be the better game. The game engine is actually infuriating to me and that is a valid opinion, so it makes sense to be looking for something similair to aoc.

"When life give you incompetence, participate in the betting" - Jerom, winner of autumn betting, 2016
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Netherlands Jerom
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07 Aug 2017, 07:03

I must say though, after watching the trailer, that I dont thing the graphics or anything else shown in it is noteworthy yet.

"When life give you incompetence, participate in the betting" - Jerom, winner of autumn betting, 2016
"but wer eyiu playig a gainst someone as magnificent as jerom? thats wha ti thogutb jerom is a beaaitful human being"- Mr_Bramboy
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Netherlands MCJim
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07 Aug 2017, 08:28

I'm definitely gonna try it. It looks promising to me. We should be happy rts is still a thing in 2017.
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Netherlands blackwidow
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07 Aug 2017, 09:35

Everything is still a thing in 2017, just not that big and thats noticeable in the games being put out.
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07 Aug 2017, 10:42

Jerom wrote:I find it kinda weird to claim that aoc will always be the better game. The game engine is actually infuriating to me and that is a valid opinion, so it makes sense to be looking for something similair to aoc.

no one claims that. But to put aoc off its throne there is more necessary than an indie studio copying aoc with mediocre graphics in 2017.
breeze wrote:they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
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Netherland Antilles Laurence Drake
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07 Aug 2017, 10:53

cant wait for the next call of duty game! $$$$$$$
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France kami_ryu
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07 Aug 2017, 14:09

@gamevideo113

What I think would really help today is just someone who puts out a solid RTS, with solid mechanics/design and solid multiplayer support. Just make sure to tick all the boxes properly. Starcraft 2 is the only RTS which has done that recently, I think. Maybe Cossacks 3? I don't know.

Look at Grey Goo which is supposed to be an AAA title, I think they kind of stepped away from what makes an RTS fundamentally good, unlike SC or AOE games. 0 AD is a game with good design but the coding behind it is insufficiently powerful (but it's improved every iteration and keep in mind they built that from NOTHING which is impressive).

It's very difficult to make a good RTS. Just very hard. My wet dream is that some studio comes up with a LoL equivalent for the RTS genre. I'm sure that this is possible and that such a business model would not only be viable, but good. I know @Dolan has previously agreed with this before.

I will be trying out this game anyway. I think I already signed up for the beta a little while ago. I'm still waiting on beta access for AOEDE
[for blue skies, I forgive you].
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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07 Aug 2017, 14:33

gamevideo113 wrote:You guys seem to be very pessimistic, some of you speak like you've already played Empires Apart and you have a wide experience on it, while obviously this is not the case. I'm not saying it is a great game because i don't know, i haven't played it either, but at least i reserve my judgement for when i will actually try the game. Besides that, i cannot deny that the game is deeply inspired by AoE2 but at the same time i'd not call it a "poorly done remake of a 20 years old game", for the simple reason that it is not such. The developers are really working hard and they aren't trying to make a game that can provide the highest possible income with the lowest possible effort. Of course you do not care about how hard the developers work, you only care about the final product, and that's right. But at the same time the fact that some people are investing part of their lives on this makes me want to call it a "half-assed" product a lot less.
I get your point but as you said, effort is nice and all but you need a large team and a lot of time to do this right. I'm sure they work hard, but 1 dude working 80 hours a week is still much less than 10 working 40. There isn't a lot of money behind this effort, which makes it doomed to fail save a miracle. That's not being pessimistic, it's a reality of the genre. There's a reason no successful indie RTS exists.
Another point that i'd like to make is that if i, in 2017, want to play a classic RTS, i have to play a 20 years old one which is undoubtedly a very good game, but at the same time has its flaws and shows its age.
In my opinion AoE2 is actually one of the most timeless games in existence. The large number of people still playing it is proof of this. It will still be played 10 years from now. For all its "flaws" the engine is actually very good. Almost all of its flaws can be viewed as features. It's consistent and its alleged flaws not only create more incentive for players to micro, it also makes micro much more fun and rewarding. For example one can argue this new engine's unit pathing improves fights, but I would argue the opposite. It removes incentives to micro, and units being so close together on top of the faster pace makes it much harder to know what's going on and means there is less interaction with obstacles on the map during fights. Certain unit stats like speed and size also become less of a factor. You see, this modern engine has its plus sides but it's not perfect. It can just as easily be argued that it's a step back from the old one.
I don't want to specifically call any of you out because i don't think it matters, but i just can't understand where does this pre-delusion/bias and the weird assumption that EA is a bad game come from.
Its budget. I think you understand this perfectly well?
True, some studios already took an attempt at something like this (Feudal Wars, 0 A.D., heck even AoEO might be considered part of this) and Empires Apart does not nearly have the budget of a triple A game, but those were different games with different purposes anyway and most importantly, if it didn't go very well it does not mean that EA is necessarily going to be a let down as well.

I hope that you guys will give it a chance even if you are not convinced. I have been following the developement for a long time and i think that the dev team, despite small and limited, is very capable of delivering a good product.

P.S.: Yes, i am a filthy shill.

Edit: also the fact that the devs are seeking for the players' feedback through a beta looks like a very positive thing to me. At the very least this means that they care about what they are making.
I suppose we'll just have to see. I get that you want it to work and don't get me wrong, I am by no means rooting against it. It just seems foolish to get our hopes up, and still it's surprising to me that they are even trying this. Passion is one thing, having the necessary resources is another.
Whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

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XeeleeFlower wrote:I don't mind open endings as long as the story continues at some point
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07 Aug 2017, 18:41

Goodspeed wrote:That's not being pessimistic, it's a reality of the genre. There's a reason no successful indie RTS exists.

Well for example Northgard sold pretty well despite being an indie game (50000+ copies afaik in the first few weeks), and it is also a nieche game. Obviously it's nowhere near what an AAA could do, mainly because AAA titles can reach much wider audiences on a worldwide scale, but i am convinced that if a game is good it will manage to make itself a decent playerbase regardless of its initial budget. Marketing is a huge factor when it comes to the success of a game, and even indie games can have good marketing that can somehow make up for the limited resources upon which the game itself is built.
In my opinion AoE2 is actually one of the most timeless games in existence. The large number of people still playing it is proof of this. It will still be played 10 years from now. For all its "flaws" the engine is actually very good. Almost all of its flaws can be viewed as features. It's consistent and its alleged flaws not only create more incentive for players to micro, it also makes micro much more fun and rewarding. For example one can argue this new engine's unit pathing improves fights, but I would argue the opposite. It removes incentives to micro, and units being so close together on top of the faster pace makes it much harder to know what's going on and means there is less interaction with obstacles on the map during fights. Certain unit stats like speed and size also become less of a factor. You see, this modern engine has its plus sides but it's not perfect. It can just as easily be argued that it's a step back from the old one.

Well this is a weird point, a game is more fun because its flaws make me have to babysit my units otherwise they will act retarded, so more micro=more fun? I'm not sure that i agree with this one hahaha , probably you haven't played a lot of AoE2:HD, sometimes AI flaws can mess you up pretty badly and that's really far from being fun :P
Its budget. I think you understand this perfectly well?

Obviously, but less budget doesn't necessarily mean cutting on the essential parts of the game. To give you an example, more budget means that you can have a building set for every civ that changes with every age, like what happens in basically every AoE game. This means increasing the costs of building art concept and models by 3/4 times, it's quite a huge deal, and does not directly benefit the gameplay. Of course fancy buildings are aesthetically pleasing and casual players will evaluate them relatively more than competitive players, but in the specific case of Empires Apart the game aims to be a competitive game, rather than a city-bulding one so it's a pretty easy choice on the developer's side. Should they spend 4 times more on concept art for a game that's meant to be competitive? Probably not. My point is that probably the core gameplay is not influenced by a relatively low budget.

On a side note, i see many people saying that the graphics are bad, but there are also a lot of people who dig the stylized art style of the game and that's purely a matter of preference. Using stylized graphics was a design choice and not a necessity implied by a low budget.
I suppose we'll just have to see. I get that you want it to work and don't get me wrong, I am by no means rooting against it. It just seems foolish to get our hopes up, and still it's surprising to me that they are even trying this. Passion is one thing, having the necessary resources is another.

Time will tell :smile:
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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08 Aug 2017, 08:27

gamevideo113 wrote:Well this is a weird point, a game is more fun because its flaws make me have to babysit my units otherwise they will act retarded, so more micro=more fun? I'm not sure that i agree with this one hahaha , probably you haven't played a lot of AoE2:HD, sometimes AI flaws can mess you up pretty badly and that's really far from being fun :P
AI flaws actually can't mess you up badly. That's my point. The game is somewhat clunky but consistent in its clunkiness. This disagreement seems to be a difference in perspective more than anything else. It's funny you would say that me not considering the game unplayable due to, in your opinion, flaws in the engine, probably means I haven't played the game a lot. On the contrary, someone who has played the game a lot would be used to the engine's flaws and, rather than be bothered by them, would start to see the plus side.

Do you know about the other tens of thousands of people playing the game? Do you think they consider the game unplayable? I understand why you personally don't like the game but you don't seem to recognize that there are multiple perspectives here. I don't see these as flaws, and obviously many agree with me. If the AI flaws can mess you up like you said, why doesn't this decide games on a top level? Because the clunkiness is consistent. On higher levels it ends up raising the skill cap which makes the game more rewarding to play.

Obviously, but less budget doesn't necessarily mean cutting on the essential parts of the game. To give you an example, more budget means that you can have a building set for every civ that changes with every age, like what happens in basically every AoE game. This means increasing the costs of building art concept and models by 3/4 times, it's quite a huge deal, and does not directly benefit the gameplay. Of course fancy buildings are aesthetically pleasing and casual players will evaluate them relatively more than competitive players, but in the specific case of Empires Apart the game aims to be a competitive game, rather than a city-bulding one so it's a pretty easy choice on the developer's side. Should they spend 4 times more on concept art for a game that's meant to be competitive? Probably not. My point is that probably the core gameplay is not influenced by a relatively low budget.

On a side note, i see many people saying that the graphics are bad, but there are also a lot of people who dig the stylized art style of the game and that's purely a matter of preference. Using stylized graphics was a design choice and not a necessity implied by a low budget.
Graphics contribute greatly to the "feel" of the game. Poor graphics throw people off immediately, often beyond repair. I think AoEO's graphics were a major reason it failed. Yes, some people like them, but many don't. Probably the majority. To me personally, the cartoony graphics ruined the AoE feel. It needs a historic touch, it should feel like you are actually in the age your colony is in. That's part of the series' charm. It's important for the sake of player immersion to make a game world feel alive, and AoEO's definitely didn't feel alive to me. It lacked detail and was cartoony, which made it feel like a virtual playground. I think this game does better there, but I'm still missing the AoE feel.
First impressions are important, and a bad one can lead a person to judge the gameplay as bad even if it's not bad. Which, to be fair, in AoEO's case it wasn't, but to me it was not an improvement either and took away many of the things I liked about AoC. That combined with the feel of the game made me not want to play it.
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Netherlands blackwidow
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08 Aug 2017, 12:14

Good ol' bug vs feature.

With starcraft remastered this 'clunky' feel from the original is purposely left untouched as one of the guys working on remastered once said: “One of the things with StarCraft is that you have to be very careful about what you know as a bug – as it could become a feature."

Its funny how two of the greatest rts games of all time have clunky AI.
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09 Aug 2017, 15:49

Goodspeed wrote:AI flaws actually can't mess you up badly. That's my point. The game is somewhat clunky but consistent in its clunkiness. This disagreement seems to be a difference in perspective more than anything else. It's funny you would say that me not considering the game unplayable due to, in your opinion, flaws in the engine, probably means I haven't played the game a lot. On the contrary, someone who has played the game a lot would be used to the engine's flaws and, rather than be bothered by them, would start to see the plus side.
Do you know about the other tens of thousands of people playing the game? Do you think they consider the game unplayable? I understand why you personally don't like the game but you don't seem to recognize that there are multiple perspectives here. I don't see these as flaws, and obviously many agree with me. If the AI flaws can mess you up like you said, why doesn't this decide games on a top level? Because the clunkiness is consistent. On higher levels it ends up raising the skill cap which makes the game more rewarding to play.

This is not true. AoE2 HD is not consistent in its "clunkiness". Sometimes your units attack properly, sometimes they stand idle for a minute. Sometimes the boar lure goes as planned, some other times the boar just de-aggroes and your BO is messed up. Sometimes you can easily push the deers, while in some other games they just decide that they are not gonna move and you waste 5 minutes of scouting trying to get deers under your TC. Sometimes vills go idle for no reason, sometimes your map spawn is terrible and that loses you the game alone. You can't really claim that there is any sort of consistency in some of the AI flaws of AoE2, as a matter of fact sometimes pro games are also influenced by these "random" elements and to me it is pretty sad that this happens. If the flaws were consistent, i'd agree with you, but they aren't.
Just to make an example, in AoE2 HD attack move is really bugged and leads to terrible outcomes if used in a fight. Should i not use it but waste half of my damage potential in overkills? I really don't think there is an argument that can be made for this being a "feature" rather than nothing more than a flaw.
Graphics contribute greatly to the "feel" of the game. Poor graphics throw people off immediately, often beyond repair. I think AoEO's graphics were a major reason it failed. Yes, some people like them, but many don't. Probably the majority. To me personally, the cartoony graphics ruined the AoE feel. It needs a historic touch, it should feel like you are actually in the age your colony is in. That's part of the series' charm. It's important for the sake of player immersion to make a game world feel alive, and AoEO's definitely didn't feel alive to me. It lacked detail and was cartoony, which made it feel like a virtual playground. I think this game does better there, but I'm still missing the AoE feel.
First impressions are important, and a bad one can lead a person to judge the gameplay as bad even if it's not bad. Which, to be fair, in AoEO's case it wasn't, but to me it was not an improvement either and took away many of the things I liked about AoC. That combined with the feel of the game made me not want to play it.

I totally agree with this. Graphics are important but this is really a matter of personal preference. One argument that can be made is that less realistic graphics tend to age better than realistic graphics, but personally i really don't mind the graphics of a game as long as they are not too distracting or unnatural.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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09 Aug 2017, 17:05

gamevideo113 wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:AI flaws actually can't mess you up badly. That's my point. The game is somewhat clunky but consistent in its clunkiness. This disagreement seems to be a difference in perspective more than anything else. It's funny you would say that me not considering the game unplayable due to, in your opinion, flaws in the engine, probably means I haven't played the game a lot. On the contrary, someone who has played the game a lot would be used to the engine's flaws and, rather than be bothered by them, would start to see the plus side.
Do you know about the other tens of thousands of people playing the game? Do you think they consider the game unplayable? I understand why you personally don't like the game but you don't seem to recognize that there are multiple perspectives here. I don't see these as flaws, and obviously many agree with me. If the AI flaws can mess you up like you said, why doesn't this decide games on a top level? Because the clunkiness is consistent. On higher levels it ends up raising the skill cap which makes the game more rewarding to play.

This is not true. AoE2 HD is not consistent in its "clunkiness". Sometimes your units attack properly, sometimes they stand idle for a minute. Sometimes the boar lure goes as planned, some other times the boar just de-aggroes and your BO is messed up. Sometimes you can easily push the deers, while in some other games they just decide that they are not gonna move and you waste 5 minutes of scouting trying to get deers under your TC. Sometimes vills go idle for no reason, sometimes your map spawn is terrible and that loses you the game alone.
None of this is accurate except the map spawns, which is often solved by using good custom maps. Anyway I don't think this falls into the category of a flawed engine, rather poor Random Map Scripting. Very similar situation in AoE3, actually.
I have never seen my units not attack for a minute.
Boar only de-aggroes when its path is (temporarily) blocked or if you hit it only once with the vill you sent to get it.
Pushing the deer with your scout is an acquired skill which I suppose you haven't quite mastered yet. I have never heard of this issue, either.
Vills never go idle for no reason. They only go idle if the path to their destination is blocked.

You can't really claim that there is any sort of consistency in some of the AI flaws of AoE2, as a matter of fact sometimes pro games are also influenced by these "random" elements and to me it is pretty sad that this happens. If the flaws were consistent, i'd agree with you, but they aren't.
I don't think I've ever seen a pro game decided by units not attacking, deer acting strangely, boars de-aggroing or vills going idle for no reason. I've seen them decided by poor map spawns but again, I don't think this quite counts as an engine issue. The same is true for AoE3, at any rate.

I don't know where you are getting your data from, but it's not the current version of AoE2.

Just to make an example, in AoE2 HD attack move is really bugged and leads to terrible outcomes if used in a fight. Should i not use it but waste half of my damage potential in overkills?
That or micro. Or use patrol.
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Romania Dolan
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09 Aug 2017, 17:52

Looks like a mix between AOE 2 and AOEO.

There is one thing I like, it's something I've been arguing for ever since I started making UI stuff for AOE3: the UI is minimal, it has no background panels, which allows the player/observer to see much more game content in one screen (compared to AOE3, where even the minimalistic UI from TAD covers like 1/3 of the screen, if we take into account the score and the age gadgets).

The rest just feels like a downright rip-off of AOE2 with some elements borrowed from other Age games.

There is some positive side to this development - it shows that there still is some interest for RTSes, even though big companies seem to ignore it and focus on what's proven successful (MOBAs basically). Too bad Microsoft is holding the Age franchise hostage and doesn't seem to have any big plans for it.
Germany lordraphael
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Posts: 1773

09 Aug 2017, 18:00

gamevideo113 wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:AI flaws actually can't mess you up badly. That's my point. The game is somewhat clunky but consistent in its clunkiness. This disagreement seems to be a difference in perspective more than anything else. It's funny you would say that me not considering the game unplayable due to, in your opinion, flaws in the engine, probably means I haven't played the game a lot. On the contrary, someone who has played the game a lot would be used to the engine's flaws and, rather than be bothered by them, would start to see the plus side.
Do you know about the other tens of thousands of people playing the game? Do you think they consider the game unplayable? I understand why you personally don't like the game but you don't seem to recognize that there are multiple perspectives here. I don't see these as flaws, and obviously many agree with me. If the AI flaws can mess you up like you said, why doesn't this decide games on a top level? Because the clunkiness is consistent. On higher levels it ends up raising the skill cap which makes the game more rewarding to play.

This is not true. AoE2 HD is not consistent in its "clunkiness". Sometimes your units attack properly, sometimes they stand idle for a minute. Sometimes the boar lure goes as planned, some other times the boar just de-aggroes and your BO is messed up. Sometimes you can easily push the deers, while in some other games they just decide that they are not gonna move and you waste 5 minutes of scouting trying to get deers under your TC. Sometimes vills go idle for no reason, sometimes your map spawn is terrible and that loses you the game alone. You can't really claim that there is any sort of consistency in some of the AI flaws of AoE2, as a matter of fact sometimes pro games are also influenced by these "random" elements and to me it is pretty sad that this happens. If the flaws were consistent, i'd agree with you, but they aren't.
Just to make an example, in AoE2 HD attack move is really bugged and leads to terrible outcomes if used in a fight. Should i not use it but waste half of my damage potential in overkills? I really don't think there is an argument that can be made for this being a "feature" rather than nothing more than a flaw.
Graphics contribute greatly to the "feel" of the game. Poor graphics throw people off immediately, often beyond repair. I think AoEO's graphics were a major reason it failed. Yes, some people like them, but many don't. Probably the majority. To me personally, the cartoony graphics ruined the AoE feel. It needs a historic touch, it should feel like you are actually in the age your colony is in. That's part of the series' charm. It's important for the sake of player immersion to make a game world feel alive, and AoEO's definitely didn't feel alive to me. It lacked detail and was cartoony, which made it feel like a virtual playground. I think this game does better there, but I'm still missing the AoE feel.
First impressions are important, and a bad one can lead a person to judge the gameplay as bad even if it's not bad. Which, to be fair, in AoEO's case it wasn't, but to me it was not an improvement either and took away many of the things I liked about AoC. That combined with the feel of the game made me not want to play it.

I totally agree with this. Graphics are important but this is really a matter of personal preference. One argument that can be made is that less realistic graphics tend to age better than realistic graphics, but personally i really don't mind the graphics of a game as long as they are not too distracting or unnatural.

most of the things you described are basically just things that happens because you lack the skill to do it right. Also i would never deer push if you cant do it perfectly. Its a minor thing to do and will only gain you an advantage if you do it perfectly while it can mess you up badly if you fuck it up.
breeze wrote:they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
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Italy gamevideo113
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ESO: gamevideo112

09 Aug 2017, 20:09

Goodspeed wrote:None of this is accurate except the map spawns, which is often solved by using good custom maps. Anyway I don't think this falls into the category of a flawed engine, rather poor Random Map Scripting. Very similar situation in AoE3, actually.

Empires Apart is being built so that the resource placement of both players in a 1v1 will be "mirrored". If you have a bad map your opponent will have a bad map too, so these sorts of unbalances should at least be more consistent when deciding the outcome of a game. I'm not sure if it is possible to have these in AoE2 or AoE3 as well but as far as i know there isn't such a map script.
I have never seen my units not attack for a minute.

It was an hyperbole, if you patrol your units into an enemy army there is a big chance that your units will just keep walking forward instead of attacking, which can obviously lose close fights.
Boar only de-aggroes when its path is (temporarily) blocked or if you hit it only once with the vill you sent to get it.

Oddly enough, sometimes boar just deaggro for no apparent reason, even if you shoot them twice and there is nothing in their path. I don't know why this happens.
Pushing the deer with your scout is an acquired skill which I suppose you haven't quite mastered yet. I have never heard of this issue, either.

I meant that the deer behaviour is not very consistent, sometimes (rarely) they just decide that they want to go back almost instantly after they just ran and you can do nothing about it.
Vills never go idle for no reason. They only go idle if the path to their destination is blocked.

I had a game yesterday where i ordered my vills to wall one gap and after i came back they were standing idle after having built ony 1 wall segment. It might have been a mistake on my part but that almost cost me the game.
I don't think I've ever seen a pro game decided by units not attacking, deer acting strangely, boars de-aggroing or vills going idle for no reason. I've seen them decided by poor map spawns but again, I don't think this quite counts as an engine issue. The same is true for AoE3, at any rate.

Pro games are not decided by these but sometimes flaws add up and can be pretty annoying, and these should not happen when there are money prize pools imo.
I don't know where you are getting your data from, but it's not the current version of AoE2.

I admit i exaggerated a bit but i am not pulling these out of nowhere. You can go check forums or reddit/r/aoe2 and you will see how many people are pissed off by bad attack move/patrol/pathfinding/vills stopping when aggroing boars and some other issues.
That or micro. Or use patrol.

Patrol has the same exact problem, to a lesser extent.
I have 1000+ hours on AoE2 HD, i have experienced these flaws for a long time, and while i think the game is very enjoyable, i'd be really happy if those flaws weren't there.
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Poland pecelot
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09 Aug 2017, 20:50

lol the deer thing is really random sometimes, Im watching theviper I know what Im talking bout aye
Memento: quanto crassior deliciarum causa factus eris, tanto difficilior impressione fugies
Tokugawa Ieyasu :chinese:
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Italy gamevideo113
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Posts: 212
ESO: gamevideo112

09 Aug 2017, 22:31

Another game of empires apart was streamed today on twitch, this time PvP! The pace is a bit slow but it might be interesting for some of you

http://www.twitch.tv/destinybit/v/16569 ... =a&t=2625s

Starts at 43:30

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