AI beats top players in Dota 2

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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: AI beats top players in Dota 2

Post by Goodspeed »

NyxAchlys9 wrote:1) It's on mashable. DoTa as a game doesn't really impress me tbh. I beat some pretty good players all the time.

2) DoTa is much simpler than aoe3 and SC2. It's difficult to grasp at first but then it gets ok.

3) CSGO is where its at
CS:GO players very much depend on their fast aim. How would you limit an AI there? They would just headshot everything instantly, and if you build in a hard coded delay they would have a disadvantage against the best players.

Dota2 is strategic but not as much in the 1v1 scenario. If it was 5v5 this would be more impressive.
Still I feel like strong mechanics can make too much of a difference in moba games. Starcraft 2 is the big one.
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No Flag dave_12
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Re: AI beats top players in Dota 2

Post by dave_12 »

Veni_Vidi_Vici_W wrote:except for the fact that LoL is a silly game


what is that supposed to mean?
Netherlands momuuu
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Re: AI beats top players in Dota 2

Post by momuuu »

sergyou wrote:I am sorry but what is an AI?

An artifical intelligence. In other words, a computer was controlling this bot.
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Sweden Gendarme
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Re: AI beats top players in Dota 2

Post by Gendarme »

Kasparov was the last person to stand up to AI, so this is hardly news.
Pay more attention to detail.
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Re: AI beats top players in Dota 2

Post by NekoBerk »

dave_12 wrote:
Veni_Vidi_Vici_W wrote:except for the fact that LoL is a silly game


what is that supposed to mean?


TRASH.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: AI beats top players in Dota 2

Post by Goodspeed »

dave_12 wrote:
Veni_Vidi_Vici_W wrote:except for the fact that LoL is a silly game
what is that supposed to mean?
It means "I'm mad everyone is playing this game that I don't like".
:chinese:
PUBG is also a silly game.
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Re: AI beats top players in Dota 2

Post by dave_12 »

Words like that have to come from somebody who has no clue about LoL
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Re: AI beats top players in Dota 2

Post by Jaeger »

Gendarme wrote:Kasparov was the last person to stand up to AI, so this is hardly news.

2, for exmple the board game GO was only conquered by a computer 1 or 2 years ago and it was very big news.
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Re: AI beats top players in Dota 2

Post by NekoBerk »

dave_12 wrote:Words like that have to come from somebody who has no clue about LoL

Sometimes i play it, sometimes it is addictive, but it isn't a GREAT GREAT game at all, i still liking Aoe 3 more than LOL, and now i'm just playing GTA San Andreas trying to kill my time lol.
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Netherlands Me4rts
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Re: AI beats top players in Dota 2

Post by Me4rts »

One is a job, one is a hobby :^)
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Re: AI beats top players in Dota 2

Post by gamevideo113 »

Jerom wrote:
gamevideo113 wrote:An AI can be as good as the AI scripter gets, given good tools for scripting. I believe it is possible to create an unbeatable AI for any AoE game, same goes for Dota or LoL imo.

The thing you're missing is that this sort of AI teaches itself, so its not hard coded behaviour at all.

Oh, yes, i totally missed that. My bad :cry:
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Re: AI beats top players in Dota 2

Post by lordraphael »

Gendarme wrote:Kasparov was the last person to stand up to AI, so this is hardly news.

you live behind a rock ?
breeze wrote: they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
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Re: AI beats top players in Dota 2

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Post by Gendarme »

No, under.
Pay more attention to detail.
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Re: AI beats top players in Dota 2

Post by momuuu »

Goodspeed wrote:
NyxAchlys9 wrote:1) It's on mashable. DoTa as a game doesn't really impress me tbh. I beat some pretty good players all the time.

2) DoTa is much simpler than aoe3 and SC2. It's difficult to grasp at first but then it gets ok.

3) CSGO is where its at
CS:GO players very much depend on their fast aim. How would you limit an AI there? They would just headshot everything instantly, and if you build in a hard coded delay they would have a disadvantage against the best players.

Dota2 is strategic but not as much in the 1v1 scenario. If it was 5v5 this would be more impressive.
Still I feel like strong mechanics can make too much of a difference in moba games. Starcraft 2 is the big one.

Actually a game like aoe3 (much less mechanics based than sc2) would be the big one. Whats Interesting is if an AI outstrategizes humans.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: AI beats top players in Dota 2

Post by Goodspeed »

I see your point, but I think overall there are more decisions to be made in an sc2 game than an aoe3 game. Admittedly they probably have a bigger impact in aoe3. Then again (near) perfect micro goes a long way in aoe3 too.
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Re: AI beats top players in Dota 2

Post by Jaeger »

Goodspeed wrote:I see your point, but I think overall there are more decisions to be made in an sc2 game than an aoe3 game. Admittedly they probably have a bigger impact in aoe3. To be fair (near) perfect micro goes a long way in aoe3 too.

Hmm yeah I've always wondered, would an AI with perfect mechanics but PR20 strategy completely smash the best players? It would gain so many more res than a human; every herd will be perectly herded, vils will be microed perfectly, etc.
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Re: AI beats top players in Dota 2

Post by lordraphael »

Goodspeed wrote:I see your point, but I think overall there are more decisions to be made in an sc2 game than an aoe3 game. Admittedly they probably have a bigger impact in aoe3. Then again (near) perfect micro goes a long way in aoe3 too.

sc2 is not a very strategical game actually.
breeze wrote: they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: AI beats top players in Dota 2

Post by Goodspeed »

I don't agree. I think there are definitely not as many larger-scale strategic decisions being made than in aoe3, and game plans before the game begins are probably not as complex, but there are many smaller strategic (and tactical) decisions a player needs to make throughout a game. More than in aoe3 at least. Think which unit to make in cases where you have access to many different units all of which are viable in different situations. A Protoss may have access to 10 completely different units at some point in the game, and needs to choose what he needs for that situation. In aoe3 you are just spamming a composition, often consisting of max 3 units. Think building placement, when to expand in games that go to 3+ bases, when to move out for harassment and with which units, etc.
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Re: AI beats top players in Dota 2

Post by lordraphael »

Goodspeed wrote:I don't agree. I think there are definitely not as many larger-scale strategic decisions being made than in aoe3, and game plans before the game begins are probably not as complex, but there are many smaller strategic (and tactical) decisions a player needs to make throughout a game. More than in aoe3 at least. Think which unit to make in cases where you have access to many different units all of which are viable in different situations. A Protoss may have access to 10 completely different units at some point in the game, and needs to choose what he needs for that situation. In aoe3 you are just spamming a composition, often consisting of max 3 units. Think building placement, when to expand in games that go to 3+ bases, when to move out for harassment and with which units, etc.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcra ... blizzsters
one of the best and most accurate analyses ive read on this matter and it explains why sc2 is a lot less strategic than you think while also touching a bunch of other problems. Maybe it is still more strategic than aoe 3. i dont think so, what you described as strategy are all tactical moves and not strategic one. So yes sc2 might be more tactical but i think aoe has a greater emphasis on strategy than sc2.
breeze wrote: they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
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Re: AI beats top players in Dota 2

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Re: AI beats top players in Dota 2

Post by momuuu »

These ai projects are truly interesting though. Imagine if a lance corporal had endless computing power and could realistically speaking hardcode the optimal AI. If he could do that, Id claim he still cannot make an AI that beats H2O. That is because this AI, while mechanically perfect can in no way outstrategize its maker. A selflearning Ai however can actually really "invent" stuff. A game like go is impossible to solve exactly, but a selflearn AI can almost 'solve' it by combining some insight with massive computing power. Right now thr AIs have very little insight imo, it can barely outdo humans in these relatively simplistic scenarios. But maybe eventually an AI can be developed that can solve real problems like solve physics and help develop theories.
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Re: AI beats top players in Dota 2

Post by HUMMAN »

Dota is way more complex both in strategy and mechanics, the limit is so high. About baiting, ai trains by matching against himself everday playing thousands of game( i guess it can play a match in 10 sec which is 10 minute in real life) and at a level baiting shows succes but as it progress it also learns to play against baiting. However in ti, some non professional players beated ai by silly strats ai is not used to. These are level 1 raze, aggroing creeps and pushing, different item builds. They aim to make 5v5 next year.
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Netherlands momuuu
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Re: AI beats top players in Dota 2

Post by momuuu »

This scenario is not complex. It really isnt, and its very mechanical.
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Re: AI beats top players in Dota 2

Post by lordraphael »

kami_ryu wrote:thedwf is French. That article is really well written. But god damn it he drives me up the wall. He's on the left end of socialism it hurts my soul. We've both flamed the crap out of each other in the euro-politics thread on TLnet.

/tangent

For some reason im not surprised. I dont participate in discussions, especially not politicial ones on teamliquid.Infact i barely visit the site anymore, its to big, to enjoy being there. But had you written that thedwf is conservative id have been surprised. I couldnt say why tho.
breeze wrote: they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.

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