not gonna pretend anymore, I love women more ;)

[gibson]

Why I am even surprised that when people make threads about serious issues their threads get completely derailed by trolls.

Because esoc pretends to have moderators.

I mean thats definitely not the issue the issue is that many people are immature and don't have a realistic view of the world.

[Goodspeed]

You just qualified as insane a good portion of muslim people on earth. Nice job!

Anyone believing in organized religion is either incredibly ignorant & stupid, or incredibly brainwashed, so I fail to see the problem. It has nothing to do with Islam.

I've found that adults who believe that are either ignorant, stupid, or both. I used to think similarly back when all I knew was AOE and my basement, so I have empathy for you, if that matters.

Anyone believing in organized religion is indeed brainwashed. Stupid? Not necessarily. Ignorant? Probably. Brainwashed? Yeah, although a better word is indoctrinated and I'm sure that's what zoi meant. Why is anyone who thinks that ignorant, stupid, or both?
Or is his choice of words (brainwashed) the only issue here?

[Gendarme]

I was very confused as I thought "believing in organized religion" meant "believing that organized religion exists". It makes sense now, though.

[deleted_user0]

Show hidden quotes

You just qualified as insane a good portion of muslim people on earth. Nice job!

Anyone believing in organized religion is either incredibly ignorant & stupid, or incredibly brainwashed, so I fail to see the problem. It has nothing to do with Islam.

I've found that adults who believe that are either ignorant, stupid, or both. I used to think similarly back when all I knew was AOE and my basement, so I have empathy for you, if that matters.

Anyone believing in organized religion is indeed brainwashed. Stupid? Not necessarily. Ignorant? Probably. Brainwashed? Yeah, although a better word is indoctrinated and I'm sure that's what zoi meant. Why is anyone who thinks that ignorant, stupid, or both?
Or is his choice of words (brainwashed) the only issue here?

Most, if not all people are indoctrinated. Most people are also ignorant. And sadly the majority of people are also stupid. This is regardless of what they do or do not believe in.

[Goodspeed]

Show hidden quotes

You just qualified as insane a good portion of muslim people on earth. Nice job!

Anyone believing in organized religion is either incredibly ignorant & stupid, or incredibly brainwashed, so I fail to see the problem. It has nothing to do with Islam.

I've found that adults who believe that are either ignorant, stupid, or both. I used to think similarly back when all I knew was AOE and my basement, so I have empathy for you, if that matters.

Anyone believing in organized religion is indeed brainwashed. Stupid? Not necessarily. Ignorant? Probably. Brainwashed? Yeah, although a better word is indoctrinated and I'm sure that's what zoi meant. Why is anyone who thinks that ignorant, stupid, or both?
Or is his choice of words (brainwashed) the only issue here?

Most, if not all people are indoctrinated.

I don't agree with this. How are for example you and me indoctrinated?

[DaRkNiTe1698]

thought you made this thread @r4go

[Gendarme]

Most of the shit we believe with almost complete certainty we do simply because that is what we have been told. How many have actually questioned whether or not the moon exists, or if dinosaurs actually existed? We are certain about these things simply because that's what we've been told, which is not a bad thing in itself. However, when someone questions these things most of us unfortunately viciously jump on them the same way many muslims would jump on you questioning Prophet Muhammad, sallallahu alayhie wassallam. Is that not indoctrination?

[Cometk]

well you can objectively view the moon every night or go to a museum to observe dinosaur bones. there's real and objective basis for these things, so yes, they don't necessarily ask to be critically thought of...

[Goodspeed]

Most of the shit we believe with almost complete certainty we do simply because that is what we have been told. How many have actually questioned whether or not the moon exists, or if dinosaurs actually existed? We are certain about these things simply because that's what we've been told, which is not a bad thing in itself. However, when someone questions these things most of us unfortunately viciously jump on them the same way many muslims would jump on you questioning Prophet Muhammad, sallallahu alayhie wassallam. Is that not indoctrination?

No, because we (or at least I) don't believe these things "uncritically". I believe them because I have been presented with ample evidence and/or because I have witnessed them with my own eyes. In short, the basis of my belief isn't faith.

[Lukas_L99]

Most of the shit we believe with almost complete certainty we do simply because that is what we have been told. How many have actually questioned whether or not the moon exists, or if dinosaurs actually existed? We are certain about these things simply because that's what we've been told, which is not a bad thing in itself. However, when someone questions these things most of us unfortunately viciously jump on them the same way many muslims would jump on you questioning Prophet Muhammad, sallallahu alayhie wassallam. Is that not indoctrination?

As a kid maybe but I really hope the vast majority questions things they are being told lol

[deleted_user0]

Show hidden quotes

You just qualified as insane a good portion of muslim people on earth. Nice job!

Anyone believing in organized religion is either incredibly ignorant & stupid, or incredibly brainwashed, so I fail to see the problem. It has nothing to do with Islam.

I've found that adults who believe that are either ignorant, stupid, or both. I used to think similarly back when all I knew was AOE and my basement, so I have empathy for you, if that matters.

Anyone believing in organized religion is indeed brainwashed. Stupid? Not necessarily. Ignorant? Probably. Brainwashed? Yeah, although a better word is indoctrinated and I'm sure that's what zoi meant. Why is anyone who thinks that ignorant, stupid, or both?
Or is his choice of words (brainwashed) the only issue here?

Most, if not all people are indoctrinated.

I don't agree with this. How are for example you and me indoctrinated?

everyone's belief system rests by upon certain principles that can't be questioned by definition. What these principles are is almost unilaterally decided by where and how you were raised. You say you don't just believe it uncritically, but the entire discourse of proof required, and what constitutes proof is something that's by definition beyond your critical scrutiny. You can't use the tool on itself. And this is where you are indoctrinated. You can of course compare tools, but which criteria are you going to use to do this without bias? you can't.

[deleted_user0]

Most of the shit we believe with almost complete certainty we do simply because that is what we have been told. How many have actually questioned whether or not the moon exists, or if dinosaurs actually existed? We are certain about these things simply because that's what we've been told, which is not a bad thing in itself. However, when someone questions these things most of us unfortunately viciously jump on them the same way many muslims would jump on you questioning Prophet Muhammad, sallallahu alayhie wassallam. Is that not indoctrination?

No, because we (or at least I) don't believe these things "uncritically". I believe them because I have been presented with ample evidence and/or because I have witnessed them with my own eyes. In short, the basis of my belief isn't faith.

religious people will quote you verbatim. they have ample evidence, and have witnessed things with their own eyes.

the basis of all belief is faith. this is pretty much a philosophical axioma. if it wasn't the case, every intelligent person should be a hardcore skepticist. but we aren't because you can't live when you question everything ad infinitum.

[Gendarme]

@Cometk You can view a white circle in the sky, yes. And most people have never seen dinosaur bones, and even if they did would probably not be able to tell the difference between a real and a fake one anyway. A lot of people have prayed to Allah with success and seen the truths of the Quran for themselves as well. It requires a great deal of effort to actually know stuff and most of us haven't put that effort into any of the things we believe, really. As stated earlier, there is nothing wrong with believing something without knowing of course. Indoctrination is when you think you know when you don't - whether it happens to be true or not is irrelevant.

[Goodspeed]

@deleted_user Sure there is no objective truth, but there is still a significant difference between basing a belief on pure faith as opposed to basing it on evidence. At the very least this is significant when using the word "indoctrinated" which is the current context. By your definition, the word loses all meaning. After all, according to you the only way you can believe something is uncritically.
In other words you're full of crap.

[Gendarme]

@Goodspeed I cannot speak for you, but most people haven't researched or questioned anything about the moon or the dinosaurs, and their beliefs are purely based on trust. There is, as emphasized, nothing wrong with that as long as we acknowledge it for what it is, and do not claim to know that the moon exists or the dinosaurs existed.

[deleted_user0]

@deleted_user Sure there is no objective truth, but there is still a significant difference between basing a belief on pure faith as opposed to basing it on evidence. At the very least this is significant when using the word "indoctrinated" which is the current context. By your definition, the word loses all meaning. After all, according to you the only way you can believe something is uncritically.
In other words you're full of crap.

It doesn't, but you're simply not willing to look deep enough into the roots of your beliefs to see what I mean, and so you just call it bullshit. I don't say you can only believe things uncritically, I'm saying somethings can't be critically reviewed because they are the source or blueprint of your critical thought. These things must be assumed, they can't be proven. And that's where the problem arises, as those assumptions will determine what constitutes proof.

[Goodspeed]

It doesn't, but you're simply not willing to look deep enough into the roots of your beliefs to see what I mean, and so you just call it bullshit.

I understand you, but your point is both irrelevant here and nonsensical because it removes all meaning from the word "indoctrinated".

The word means you were taught something and believed it without question.
Your point is that you can't question the way you question things, so we are all indoctrinated by our own minds and whatever shaped them. The difference is that, during indoctrination, you are discouraged from questioning what you are being taught. In other cases, you are not. You may be questioning things based on your own perception of reality, but at least you're questioning things. You are, in other words, basing your beliefs on evidence (interpreted by you, yes, but this is irrelevant here) instead of faith.

I don't say you can only believe things uncritically

What can you believe "critically", then? Name an example.

A good example @Gendarme is your belief in that conspiracy theory. You weren't indoctrinated, you chose to believe it based on evidence you found. You are still wrong, of course, but you are not believing it uncritically. See the difference?

[momuuu]

This thread has ended up being so depressing

[Lenari]

woho Springfield

[Cometk]

This thread has ended up being so depressing

i think the thread is at its peak actually, the discussion here is very interesting

[Gendarme]

@Goodspeed I don't agree that indoctrination is belief without question. A belief is simply an estimation of something being more likely to be true than false. Very rarely is one completely neutral; there is usually a belief however uncertain it is. Only when you are very certain of your belief (claiming to know) without having questioned enough are you indoctrinated. I do not see what you are trying to say with your example. See the difference between what?

I agree that I am not indoctrinated regarding anything (is it even possible to believe that?) mainly, and perhaps entirely, because I am quite uncertain about everything I haven't looked into myself (yes, I am open to the possibility that the moon does not exist), but I think most are. The reason I use "we" and "us" when I argue is simply to not sound harsh or aggressive as many discussions are ruined by people getting defensive in my experience.

[Goodspeed]

I agree that I am not indoctrinated regarding anything (is it even possible to believe that?) mainly, and perhaps entirely, because I am quite uncertain about everything I haven't looked into myself (yes, I am open to the possibility that the moon does not exist),

In other words you question things you are taught..
Indoctrination is discouraging the pupil from questioning what they are taught.
And being indoctrinated means believing what you're taught without question.

What do you think indoctrination is if not that?

[Gendarme]

I do not question everything I am taught, but I am not indoctrinated as long as I am open to the possibility of being wrong. Certainty is not a requirement for belief. If I were certain about the things I believe without question I would be indoctrinated. Yes, indoctrination does imply belief without question, but they are not equivalent; belief without question does not imply indoctrination. I think the lack of questioning has the same practical consequences whether you are discouraged from questioning or if you don't do it for any other reason - it is just a matter of semantics.

[Dolan]

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[Gendarme]

But no alcohol until 18!!1!!11!1!1!1!!!!