Las Vegas Mass Shooting Thread

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Re: Las Vegas Mass Shooting Thread

Post by sc »

Dolan wrote:@kami_ryu, @milku3459

K, well, that wasn't the point though. The point was that these things are specifically made to kill, there's no other particular usage for them. Guns are not made for recreational use, cmon. When you target practice, you target practice to improve your aim. But what particular situation are you practising for? What's the end goal of using a gunpowder weapon? Just shooting up stuff? You could do that with an airgun, you don't need lethal chemicals to be shot with your bullets.


Target shooting is a pretty huge sport. If guns weren't used in violence, people would still use them as a cool, dangerous toy. People do shit that they enjoy. People golf. People go mudding. People shoot guns alone or with friends and improve their aim over years of practice. Shooting accurately is hard asf, and there is always another challenge in the sport. True tons of people target practice for their jobs or to feel safe or to prepre to kill someone, but there's still a multi billion dollar market for folks who have cool toys and just want to shoot targets.
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Re: Las Vegas Mass Shooting Thread

Post by noissance »

That frostbite guy makes Trump look like a genius. The gun crime rate has increased due to increased stress on people. These sickos unload their mags and kill themselves due to being cowardly.
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Re: Las Vegas Mass Shooting Thread

Post by frostibite »

noissance wrote:That frostbite guy makes Trump look like a genius. The gun crime rate has increased due to increased stress on people. These sickos unload their mags and kill themselves due to being cowardly.


There you have it folks

Mass shootings are caused by stress and cowardice. Time to ban them both
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Re: Las Vegas Mass Shooting Thread

Post by JakeyBoyTH »

frostibite wrote:
noissance wrote:That frostbite guy makes Trump look like a genius. The gun crime rate has increased due to increased stress on people. These sickos unload their mags and kill themselves due to being cowardly.


There you have it folks

Mass shootings are caused by stress and cowardice. Time to ban them both


You must be part of the 1/4 of Americans who are retarded.
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Re: Las Vegas Mass Shooting Thread

Post by milku3459 »

People don't just own guns to feel cool as Dolan thinks. A family I stayed with in Louisiana used guns to keep pests off their property and gardens, in rural areas where police presence is low, people protect their families themselves, something I'm not sure Dolan might understand in the crowded, well-policed EU (correct me if I'm wrong and you do live in a rural area).

An armed populace also prevents the government from overstepping it's bounds and flagrantly trampling on the rights of the people. Whenever any form of government becomes destructive of life liberty and pursuit of happiness, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it. Guns aren't just a status symbol or gangster sign--it is a fundamental failsafe in the American system.

As George Orwell wrote in "You and the Atomic Bomb", the American and French revolutions were possible because the common man had access to weapons of comparable quality to that of the government--flintlock muskets that were easy to produce and efficient. He wrote: "that ages in which the dominant weapon is expensive or difficult to make will tend to be ages of despotism, whereas when the dominant weapon is cheap and simple, the common people have a chance." I think he has a point. There's a reason why dictatorships and communists ban people from owning guns or even weapons--freedom withers with a strong government and a toothless populace. Think of responsible, armed citizens as another check-and-balance in the American republic, the final reset as a response to catastrophic failure.

Concealed carry can protect you in many situations, but for the American people to protect their families in the absence of police presence and to protect the fundamental rights of every man under the unalienable laws of nature, and nature's God, better weapons are needed.

Automatic weapons however, should be off the table for the common citizen.

EDIT: it seems the dude was using a semi-auto weapon purchased legally with a bump stock in order to sustain full-auto fire.
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Re: Las Vegas Mass Shooting Thread

Post by deleted_user0 »

Its such bs to think that in this age, a few civilians with guns will stop a modern army. The veterans might slow them downs, but random rednecks and gangsters with guns??
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Re: Las Vegas Mass Shooting Thread

Post by Goodspeed »

milku3459 wrote:An armed populace also prevents the government from overstepping it's bounds and flagrantly trampling on the rights of the people.
Nah. Democracy and laws to keep it in place prevent that. In theory anyway. But it's the only defense we have.

Whenever any form of government becomes destructive of life liberty and pursuit of happiness, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it. Guns aren't just a status symbol or gangster sign--it is a fundamental failsafe in the American system.

As George Orwell wrote in "You and the Atomic Bomb", the American and French revolutions were possible because the common man had access to weapons of comparable quality to that of the government--flintlock muskets that were easy to produce and efficient. He wrote: "that ages in which the dominant weapon is expensive or difficult to make will tend to be ages of despotism, whereas when the dominant weapon is cheap and simple, the common people have a chance." I think he has a point. There's a reason why dictatorships and communists ban people from owning guns or even weapons--freedom withers with a strong government and a toothless populace. Think of responsible, armed citizens as another check-and-balance in the American republic, the final reset as a response to catastrophic failure.
You seem to have missed a pretty important part of Orwell's point. We are currently in an age where the dominant weapons are indeed expensive and difficult to make. The common man absolutely doesn't have access to weapons of comparable quality to the government's. It would be a slaughter.
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Re: Las Vegas Mass Shooting Thread

Post by Gendarme »

@deleted_user @Goodspeed Are you saying that it is not easier for people to revolt against their government if they have guns than if they do not?
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Re: Las Vegas Mass Shooting Thread

Post by milku3459 »

umeu wrote:Its such bs to think that in this age, a few civilians with guns will stop a modern army. The veterans might slow them downs, but random rednecks and gangsters with guns??


Goodspeed wrote:It would be a slaughter.


Motivated, armed citizens engaging in guerilla warfare in familiar regions can inflict grevious casualties on a much larger, technologically advanced enemy. See Vietnam, Soviets in Afghanistan, where the two sides had comparable technological disparity.
I don't doubt that the US army would defeat all the rednecks in the south, but it would take a long time and cost them dearly. Sure, citizens with guns would eventually lose to a modern army, but I'd bet on the citizens with guns rather than the citizens without guns any day.

Laws will stop the government from abusing power? Who enforces the law? The reason why America and the Declaration of Independence was a radical idea in 1776 was because it proposed the idea that people not only could, but were fully entitled to revolt in response to denial of rights by the government; prior to that, the Magna Charta had the aristocrats watch the king, the English Bill of Rights and the Glorious Revolution moved more in the modern democratic direction, but Americans were the first to have it be a fundamental part of their founding law--if the government abuses power, the people have the right to revolt. The founding fathers believed that since man was fundamentally evil, all needed someone to watch them and keep them in check, even the biggest politicians and people in power. Competition between politicians usually keeps them in check, but the public must have the means to prevent government excess.
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Re: Las Vegas Mass Shooting Thread

Post by spanky4ever »

@Gendarme most revolts in the past 30 years, as far as I can tell, have been peacefull, by massive demonstrations. Im thinking of the revolts in easter parts of Europa. I also think that Catalonia will be one of those - no civil wars, just ppl demonstrating and demanding changes.
The revolution of 1989; Hungary, East Germany, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, Romania, Polen.
Further the Sovjet union was dissolved, resulting in 11 countries leaving; Armenia, Azerbadjan, Belarus, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyztam, Moldova, Tajikstan, Turkmenistan, Ukraine and Uzbekistan. The baltic states; Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania.

Then there is the Arab spring. And many many more examples of peacefull revolts around the world in modern times. https://www.google.no/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... PB8Zrig38T

And this all started with stealworkers in Polen, making peacefull protests against the regime.
Now you tell me how this would have turned out if ppl had guns and combated the regime violently instead :shock:
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Re: Las Vegas Mass Shooting Thread

Post by deleted_user0 »

Gendarme wrote:@deleted_user @Goodspeed Are you saying that it is not easier for people to revolt against their government if they have guns than if they do not?


it would be easier, but civil wars don't work like that. it's seldom army vs civilians. generally part of the army sides with the civilians and does most of the fighting. there are often also outside parties interfering and sending either mercenaries, military resources or sometimes even outright military support. theres no need for civilians to ALWAYS have guns, for them to be able to resist government.
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Re: Las Vegas Mass Shooting Thread

Post by spanky4ever »

@Gendarme there will be a revolution in USA, very soon (I hope) - cos more and more ppl are awake now and educate themself on political issues. The corupt politicians will be voted out of office and there will be a democratic revolution. That is my sincere hope.
Imagine how it would turn out if ppl started shooting at corupt politicians, the police and the army > marital laws, and army shooting back? Total disaster, and a civil war would come out of that
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Re: Las Vegas Mass Shooting Thread

Post by Gendarme »

@spanky4ever 30 years is nothing; it is one mere generation. Furthermore, there is no possibility of a peaceful revolt succeeding if the government decides to refuse to listen to its people. Your analysis is biased as it is only including successful "revolutions". What about all the people that wanted to revolt but couldn't?

What will the people of Europe do if EU begins to turn into one giant police state if they don't have any power at all to union and stand against the government? What will the people of USA do if their constitution finally becomes obsolete and it too turns into a police state? These are valid concerns, and I would argue that we are in fact heading towards 1984 and doing so quite rapidly. However, even if you do not believe that your freedoms should be not taken for granted with blind trust in your government. Only if it is certain that the government will be benevolent for the forseeable future can I begin to sympathize with your dispraise for guns, but this is far from reality and if this is what you and most others who share your view on guns believe then we have bigger things to discuss.
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Re: Las Vegas Mass Shooting Thread

Post by deleted_user0 »

i would argue you would be far better off with citizens taking a hacking course as a means of self defense, rather than a shooting course.

you also pretend like the government is a bunch of people disconnected from their constituency. it's far better to exercise your power to vote and get the right people in power (trump anti-establishment?! ROFL) than to keep voting for the retards that you then fear will take your freedom away... which they actually will because youre afraid of terrorists...
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Re: Las Vegas Mass Shooting Thread

Post by Gendarme »

That would be better, of course. Unfortunately it is obviously not working as people apparently won't realise anything until it is too late (if even then), at which point it would be good to have guns to at least try to avoid complete subjugation.
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Re: Las Vegas Mass Shooting Thread

Post by spanky4ever »

Gendarme wrote: 30 years is nothing; it is one mere generation.


I guess this is only in this generation, but I thought that was most relevant. I still do.

Furthermore, there is no possibility of a peaceful revolt succeeding if the government decides to refuse to listen to its people. Your analysis is biased as it is only including successful "revolutions". What about all the people that wanted to revolt but couldn't?

There can be no govenment if there is no ppl who support it. Government and the ppl are two sides of the same coin, and thus define each other like complementary instituions. All history will tell you that, be it peacefull or violent revolutions. There is no exeption from this rule, cos all despots have been taken down, soner or later.

What will the people of Europe do if EU begins to turn into one giant police state if they don't have any power at all to union and stand against the government? What will the people of USA do if their constitution finally becomes obsolete and it too turns into a police state?

As far as I am concerned, USA is only a few steps away from being a facist police state. We could have a lengthy discussion about that, and I have good arguments to support my view on this. That is why it will be a revolt pretty soon, like I said; hopefully a peacefull one.

These are valid concerns, and I would argue that we are in fact heading towards 1984 and doing so quite rapidly. However, even if you do not believe that your freedoms should be not taken for granted with blind trust in your government.



good points, and I agree with you on most of it, just not the means to change government.

Only if it is certain that the government will be benevolent for the forseeable future can I begin to sympathize with your dispraise for guns, but this is far from reality and if this is what you and most others who share your view on guns believe then we have bigger things to discuss

As I said above, the goverment can only govern on behalf of the ppl who elected them, or who they serve. The revolt in Polen started with strikes, and spread. Good example on peacefull revolt. There are plenty of other examples you know; South Africa, and the civil rights movement in USA - all about surpression of black ppl.
Could b we have bigger things to discuss? I dont know :roll:
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Re: Las Vegas Mass Shooting Thread

Post by lordraphael »

Gendarme wrote:That would be better, of course. Unfortunately it is obviously not working as people apparently won't realise anything until it is too late (if even then), at which point it would be good to have guns to at least try to avoid complete subjugation.

your whole reasoning is flawed. Do you really think that hand weapons and semi automatic weapons could stop the US gouverment from turning america into a dictatorship. US military is so upgraded they have so advanced weapon system, it seems highly unlikely that a bunch of hillbyllis could stop them. With weapons or without them.

And that basically applies to most states, what does gun fire do vs a tank. Nothing. If you think armed citizens prevent people in charge from abusing their power and turning a democracy into a dictatorship youre a bit naive imo.
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Re: Las Vegas Mass Shooting Thread

Post by Gendarme »

@lordraphael You can combat an oppressive police force if you're armed. The police is the tool used by the government to control the people in a police state, and the police doesn't drive tanks. But yes, generally the government does have better weapons than the people, but they are vastly outnumbered and are probably not interested in the slaughter of the whole population. If the people are powerless however, they simply become hopelessly enslaved. Civil war is not the best outcome of course, but it is better than being enslaved by the government like people in many countries are today and have been throughout history. The ideal scenario is of course to democratically stop our society from heading towards an orwellian state, but I do not see many signs of that happening, so at the very least we can try to prepare for a fight.

Armed citizens are useful for crime prevention also, but in all fairness if the government wanted a safe society we would have one regardless of whether citizens are armed or not. Our problems all boil down to the malevolence of our government and almost all violent crime is derived whence.
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Re: Las Vegas Mass Shooting Thread

Post by spanky4ever »

phpBB [video]

https://youtu.be/Ise5Bz-mtbI

guess you would recomend that the Catalonians started to kill police here @Gendarme
hrrrrrm :shock:
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Re: Las Vegas Mass Shooting Thread

Post by milku3459 »

lordraphael wrote:
Gendarme wrote:That would be better, of course. Unfortunately it is obviously not working as people apparently won't realise anything until it is too late (if even then), at which point it would be good to have guns to at least try to avoid complete subjugation.

your whole reasoning is flawed. Do you really think that hand weapons and semi automatic weapons could stop the US gouverment from turning america into a dictatorship. US military is so upgraded they have so advanced weapon system, it seems highly unlikely that a bunch of hillbyllis could stop them. With weapons or without them.

And that basically applies to most states, what does gun fire do vs a tank. Nothing. If you think armed citizens prevent people in charge from abusing their power and turning a democracy into a dictatorship youre a bit naive imo.


You think the US army would be able to bring their full forces to bear in a revolution? Sure the US has tanks, carpetbombers, heck, they have nukes that could vaporise every single person in the world several times over. Surely they would have no problem with the "hillybillies"?

As I said before, well-motivated, armed militias operating on home ground can severely cripple and damage invading forces several times larger and much more technologically advanced than themselves, as shown in Afghanistan with the Soviets and Vietnam with the Americans. In both cases, Cold War superpowers with enough firepower to wipe the earth clean dozens of times struggled for years and years, losing thousands of troops, against uneducated "hillybillies" armed with AK-47s. Sure, the Vietcong had access to some tech (such as SAMs and MiGs from the soviets), but all in all the technological disparity is laughable. You're talking about villagers and farmers armed with Kalashnikovs and sticks covered in human feces at the bottom of pits fighting against a world superpower. Sure, the US had nukes and could have scrubbed all of Vietnam off the map. But did they?

The situation is similar in a revolution--beyond a certain point, overwhelming firepower doesn't give advantages because it can't be used. Do you think the Feds would carpetbomb or MOAB Houston because of revolutionary activity? They wouldn't for the same reasons all of Syria isn't a smouldering ash heap--collateral is impossible to avoid in these situations.

Sure, an AR-15 does nothing to an M1. But who's talking about shooting 5mm rounds vs 2000+mm of effective armor vs anti tank rounds? A quick study into the history of guerilla warfare will give you some idea of what to do. Practice deep defensive warfare. Keep withdrawing, force the enemy to stretch his supply lines. Lure them into traps, ambush the infantry escort then take out the tanks in close quarters--the safest distance to be from a tank is right on top of it. Tanks are great in open confrontation against clearly defined armies and other tanks. Against assailiants that blend in with the populace, IEDs, other elements of guerilla warfare? Not so great.

People have a greater chance against the government than you realise...the US army is not a class loyal to its own interests, like in so many other countries where army officers stage coups. From what I can see, US army culture is radically different. Many soldiers are extremely right-leaning, meaning that in a conflict where citizens are justified in fighting against unchecked government, most of the army would take the side of the revolutionaries.
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Re: Las Vegas Mass Shooting Thread

Post by lordraphael »

The USA is not vietnam or afghanistan, those countries are just made for guerilla warfare,scenically speaking, while the USA, for the most part, is not. Anyawys weve strayed pretty far from the OP.
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Re: Las Vegas Mass Shooting Thread

Post by Atomiswave »

zoom wrote:
Atomiswave wrote:In a country with 350 million pop, there has to be few psychos here and there. Its a rule of probability.....
1. That doesn't mean society has to actively arm them. 2. Says the Serbian. 3. Says the Swede.


Then change gun laws in certain states, simple as that. Idk what you meant by Swede and Serbian remark.....
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Re: Las Vegas Mass Shooting Thread

Post by milku3459 »

lordraphael wrote:The USA is not vietnam or afghanistan, those countries are just made for guerilla warfare,scenically speaking, while the USA, for the most part, is not. Anyawys weve strayed pretty far from the OP.


Guerilla warfare would be even tougher in America than in Afghanistan or Vietnam imo...the army would need to be able to fight in the bayous of Lousiana, the high altitude Rockies of Colorado, the deserts of Utah and Nevada, the shores and wilds of the Great Lakes, the frozen wasteland of Alaska, against fully acclimated guerillas. It's not Vietnam or Afghanistan. It's several different kinds of Vietnams and Afghanistans filled with educated, well-armed citizens.
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Re: Las Vegas Mass Shooting Thread

Post by tedere12 »

milku3459 wrote:
lordraphael wrote:The USA is not vietnam or afghanistan, those countries are just made for guerilla warfare,scenically speaking, while the USA, for the most part, is not. Anyawys weve strayed pretty far from the OP.


Guerilla warfare would be even tougher in America than in Afghanistan or Vietnam imo...the army would need to be able to fight in the bayous of Lousiana, the high altitude Rockies of Colorado, the deserts of Utah and Nevada, the shores and wilds of the Great Lakes, the frozen wasteland of Alaska, against fully acclimated guerillas. It's not Vietnam or Afghanistan. It's several different kinds of Vietnams and Afghanistans filled with educated, well-armed citizens.

and very clever too
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Re: Las Vegas Mass Shooting Thread

Post by gibson »

I understand why Americans would be for less gun control but it boggles my mind how people from countries that have higher gun control and subsequently have much lower homicide rates could not be for higher gun control

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