Charges Filed: Trump Campaign Russian Ties

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Re: Charges Filed: Trump Campaign Russian Ties

Post by Gendarme »

Did he really admire Marx?
A Socialist is one who serves the common good without giving up his individuality or personality or the product of his personal efficiency. ... Our adopted term "Socialist" has nothing to do with Marxist Socialism. Marxism is anti-property; true socialism is not. Marxism places no value on the individual, or individual effort, or efficiency; true Socialism values the individual and encourages him in individual efficiency, at the same time holding that his interests as an individual must be in consonance with those of the community. All great inventions, discoveries, achievements were first the product of an individual brain. It is charged against me that I am against property, that I am an atheist. Both charges are false.
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Re: Charges Filed: Trump Campaign Russian Ties

Post by oats13 »

Yes he did greatly admire Marx and was widely read on socialist theory, he himself believed that the marxist socialism above referred to had gone in the wrong direction and he as he puts it was in favour of the 'true socialism'. He believed that the marxist bloc had become 'infected with jewry' and increasingly replaced class with race in his theories, this was the bases of his problem with the bloc- hence your above quote.

Good article here- btw 'the independent' is a left-leaning national newspaper in england- http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-enter ... 86455.html
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Re: Charges Filed: Trump Campaign Russian Ties

Post by Dolan »

That's an interesting article, too bad it doesn't quote any references to support its claim that socialism advocated for genocide during the 19th century and early 20th (I was actually curious to see them). Beside a few anecdotal quotes, there's no evidence socialism was through and through a supporter of racial genocide. I'm not saying this to defend socialism (I'm not a leftist), but it seems a bold claim for so few bits of evidence.

The article is also missing an important fact: lots of Jews were Socialist/Communist during the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia. They even set up party cells which plotted to get to power in countries close to Russia. I know this because this is what happened in Romania when Russia "liberated" it from the Nazis (basically invaded, after we already liberated ourselves).

While most of the Nazi doctrine of Aryanism was borrowed from Gobineau & Co. and much of the anthropological literature of the time (which saw the West's moral decline through the lens of Darwinism, Mendelian genetics and the challenge to stop human degeneration through racial hygiene) as well as from Nietzsche's concept of Übermensch, there's also a German-nationalist component that Nazis traced back to Nietzsche. Sure, you can call that a misreading of Nietzsche (under Alfred Bäumler's influence), but that's what they believed. The Führerprinzip was another Nazi tenet that was inspired by Nietzsche's will-to-power philosophy.

To top it all, Alfred Rosenberg was an anti-Jew Jew who became the ideologue of the Nazi movement, while Hitler was in prison. And Nietzsche hated both socialism and nationalism, even though he wrote about the (past) greatness of the German Volk and what it would take for it to become great again.

So I doubt it's that simple to call Hitler a fan of Marx, if he was also a fan of Nietzsche. If that were true, then Nazism wasn't just another kind of Socialism, but more like a hybrid type of ideology, that owed its inspiration from many conflicting sources.

Marxism without the theory of class struggle is pretty much not Marxism. And if you put race in the centre of your political ideology, I don't see how you can call that socialism.
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Re: Charges Filed: Trump Campaign Russian Ties

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Re: Charges Filed: Trump Campaign Russian Ties

Post by oats13 »

"That's an interesting article, too bad it doesn't quote any references to support its claim that socialism advocated for genocide during the 19th century and early 20th (I was actually curious to see them). Beside a few anecdotal quotes, there's no evidence socialism was through and through a supporter of racial genocide. I'm not saying this to defend socialism (I'm not a leftist), but it seems a bold claim for so few bits of evidence."

Firstly the article isn't claiming that " socialism advocated for genocide during the 19th century and early 20th" and in point of fact genocide isn't exclusive to nazism- just read 'The gulag archipelago' (solzhenitsyn), 'Mao's great famine' (Dikotter) or 'The pol pot regime' (Kiernan) ofc none of this means that genocide is inextricably linked to socialism just they aren't mutually exclusive.

"The article is also missing an important fact: lots of Jews were Socialist/Communist during the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia. They even set up party cells which plotted to get to power in countries close to Russia. I know this because this is what happened in Romania when Russia "liberated" it from the Nazis (basically invaded, after we already liberated ourselves)."

And this is precisely why Hitler linked 'jewery' and 'bolshevism' in his 'crusade against marxism' which is specifically referenced in the article. You might be thinking 'how does Hitler simultaneously admire Marx and crusade against marxism'- because marx and what marxism had become- (bolshevism in hitlers eyes) are two separate things in separate moments in time.

It isn't logical to say that just because Nietzsche criticised 'the socialist rabble' and that the nazis completely bastardised his work then Hitler can't admire also marx, one might greatly admire someones work but not agree with a specific criticism within some other part of their work, but this is not necessary to the debate as we have plenty of quotes from Hitler about his admiration of Marx/ism-

"Socialism as the final concept of duty, the ethical duty of work, not just for oneself but also for one’s fellow man’s sake, and above all the principle: Common good before own good, a struggle against all parasitism and especially against easy and unearned income. And we were aware that in this fight we can rely on no one but our own people. We are convinced that socialism in the right sense will only be possible in nations and races that are Aryan, and there in the first place we hope for our own people and are convinced that socialism is inseparable from nationalism."

"The common good before the individual good"

"Since we are socialists, we must necessarily also be antisemites because we want to fight against the very opposite: materialism and mammonism… "

"Because it seems inseparable from the social idea and we do not believe that there could ever exist a state with lasting inner health if it is not built on internal social justice, and so we have joined forces with this knowledge."

"To put it quite clearly: we have an economic programme. Point No. 13 in that programme demands the nationalisation of all public companies, in other words socialisation, or what is known here as socialism. … the basic principle of my Party’s economic programme should be made perfectly clear and that is the principle of authority… the good of the community takes priority over that of the individual. But the State should retain control; every owner should feel himself to be an agent of the State; it is his duty not to misuse his possessions to the detriment of the State or the interests of his fellow countrymen"

His reasoning for dislike of 'jewery' was such-

"There are no such things as classes: they cannot be. Class means caste and caste means race."

"If the National Socialist Movement should fail to understand the fundamental importance of this essential principle [race], if it should merely varnish the external appearance of the present State and adopt the majority principle, it would really do nothing more than compete with Marxism on its own ground."

The point is that he was greatly Influenced by marxist theory and admired it-

""I have learned a great deal from Marxism" "as I do not hesitate to admit".

"The trouble with Weimar Republic politicians, he told Otto Wagener at much the same time, was that "they had never even read Marx", implying that no one who had failed to read so important an author could even begin to understand the modern world; in consequence, he went on, they imagined that the October revolution in 1917 had been "a private Russian affair", whereas in fact it had changed the whole course of human history! His differences with the communists, he explained, were less ideological than tactical. " - quoted from article"

His idea was to allow a more direct less international form of socialism-

"In our movement the two extremes come together: the Communists from the Left and the officers and students from the Right. These two have always been the most active elements."

" National Socialism is a doctrine that has reference exclusively to the German people. Bolshevism lays stress on international mission. "

Etc.

The point is that whatever one may say the reality lies in the actual policy- there was keen anti-communist feeling in germany at this time ( don't forget that lenins second revolution was pretty much enabled by germany and had gone against them) and Hitler was keen to exploit this in public , hence it is easy to find hitler quotes that are anti communist but these are usually framed within anti bolshevik rhetoric.

If you actually look at the policies of the NSDAP from 1920-1935 ( public works programs extension of the welfare state etc.) and then compare the later policies of scapegoating jews for the enormous debt which his programs had run up (exacerbated by the concealed re-armament programs) they actually support this idea of a transition from emphasis on class to race.

We remember and teach the second part by why not the first?
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Re: Charges Filed: Trump Campaign Russian Ties

Post by Dolan »

oats13 wrote:Firstly the article isn't claiming that " socialism advocated for genocide during the 19th century and early 20th"

Except that it does:
The claim that Hitler cannot really have been a socialist because he advocated and practised genocide suggests a monumental failure, then, in the historical memory. Only socialists in that age advocated or practised genocide, at least in Europe, and from the first years of his political career Hitler was proudly aware of the fact.
[...]
The tradition, what is more, was unique. In the European century that began in the 1840s from Engels's article of 1849 down to the death of Hitler, everyone who advocated genocide called himself a socialist, and no exception has been found.


and in point of fact genocide isn't exclusive to nazism- just read 'The gulag archipelago' (solzhenitsyn), 'Mao's great famine' (Dikotter) or 'The pol pot regime' (Kiernan) ofc none of this means that genocide is inextricably linked to socialism just they aren't mutually exclusive.

Yeah, but that's not what the article claimed. It was about what was the ideological source of inspiration for Hitler. And they didn't provide any references to back their claims up. Very shoddy standards of writing, tbh.

And this is precisely why Hitler linked 'jewery' and 'bolshevism' in his 'crusade against marxism' which is specifically referenced in the article. You might be thinking 'how does Hitler simultaneously admire Marx and crusade against marxism'- because marx and what marxism had become- (bolshevism in hitlers eyes) are two separate things in separate moments in time.

That's the problem with this article, it claims lots of contradictory things that it never proves or provides any evidence in their support.

It isn't logical to say that just because Nietzsche criticised 'the socialist rabble' and that the nazis completely bastardised his work then Hitler can't admire also marx, one might greatly admire someones work but not agree with a specific criticism within some other part of their work, but this is not necessary to the debate as we have plenty of quotes from Hitler about his admiration of Marx/ism-

Well, it actually is, it shows that if the article's thesis is right (which is doubtful), then Hitler's ideology was a mishmash of disparate ideas, taken from authors that would not have agreed with his freestyle interpretation. The idea that one could have used the concept of Ubermensch and the will-to-power to justify a socialist society would have triggered Nietzsche to no end. Nietzsche was a supporter of individual excellence and nobility vs the average non-distinctiveness of the masses. He would have considered using Ubermensch as a blueprint for the Socialist "New Man" completely bonkers and out of context. An Ubermensch, by definition, couldn't be anything common or averaged.
If Hitler thought the concept of Ubermensch was useful or relevant for building a socialist society, then he misunderstood it completely and I doubt he could have understood Marx either.

The point is that he was greatly Influenced by marxist theory and admired it-
""I have learned a great deal from Marxism" "as I do not hesitate to admit".
"The trouble with Weimar Republic politicians, he told Otto Wagener at much the same time, was that "they had never even read Marx", implying that no one who had failed to read so important an author could even begin to understand the modern world; in consequence, he went on, they imagined that the October revolution in 1917 had been "a private Russian affair", whereas in fact it had changed the whole course of human history! His differences with the communists, he explained, were less ideological than tactical. " - quoted from article"
His idea was to allow a more direct less international form of socialism-
"In our movement the two extremes come together: the Communists from the Left and the officers and students from the Right. These two have always been the most active elements."
" National Socialism is a doctrine that has reference exclusively to the German people. Bolshevism lays stress on international mission. "

And where were these quotations taken from? Any credible source, beside this article? Why should we believe some article from the media, that claims to be evidence for something, without providing any references.

The point is that whatever one may say the reality lies in the actual policy- there was keen anti-communist feeling in germany at this time ( don't forget that lenins second revolution was pretty much enabled by germany and had gone against them) and Hitler was keen to exploit this in public , hence it is easy to find hitler quotes that are anti communist but these are usually framed within anti bolshevik rhetoric.

Yeah, but socialism and communism are not the same thing. Nazism wasn't National Communism.

If you actually look at the policies of the NSDAP from 1920-1935 ( public works programs extension of the welfare state etc.) and then compare the later policies of scapegoating jews for the enormous debt which his programs had run up (exacerbated by the concealed re-armament programs) they actually support this idea of a transition from emphasis on class to race.
We remember and teach the second part by why not the first?

Probably for tactical reasons, you can't start implementing your political platform by harassing Jews. He started governing by rewarding and motivating the broadest social "class" -- workers. Once you secure their support, it's easier to scapegoat Jews.
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Re: Charges Filed: Trump Campaign Russian Ties

Post by fei123456 »

why? russian are not demons. you may not like them but it's stupid to act as if it's 1970s now.
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Post by Snuden »

fei123456 wrote:why? russian are not demons. you may not like them but it's stupid to act as if it's 1970s now.

Huh?
Their politicians are scum of the earth.

A corrupt bunch of faggots.
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Post by oats13 »

I'm currently unable to deal with the monumental car-crash of poor logic @Dolan has presented here- I'll spend 10 minutes later backing up the quotes sources and dealing with just the first passage he (mis)quotes and why he has completely misunderstood it and is in no position to speculate on Hitlers' understanding of Marx.
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Post by tedere12 »

Snuden wrote:
fei123456 wrote:why? russian are not demons. you may not like them but it's stupid to act as if it's 1970s now.

Huh?
Their politicians are scum of the earth.

A corrupt bunch of faggots.

He said the F word!
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Re: Charges Filed: Trump Campaign Russian Ties

Post by Goodspeed »

Snuden wrote:
fei123456 wrote:why? russian are not demons. you may not like them but it's stupid to act as if it's 1970s now.

Huh?
Their politicians are scum of the earth.

A corrupt bunch of faggots.
Russia isn't the only country with that problem
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Re: Charges Filed: Trump Campaign Russian Ties

Post by Snuden »

Goodspeed wrote:
Snuden wrote:
fei123456 wrote:why? russian are not demons. you may not like them but it's stupid to act as if it's 1970s now.

Huh?
Their politicians are scum of the earth.

A corrupt bunch of faggots.
Russia isn't the only country with that problem

I never said that, and you never said I did.
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Re: Charges Filed: Trump Campaign Russian Ties

Post by oats13 »

"I have learned a great deal from Marxism" "as I do not hesitate to admit". Gespräche mit Hitler, Zürich 1940 (US, The Voice of Destruction, G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1940; UK, Hitler Speaks. A Series of Political Conversations with Adolf Hitler on his Real Aims, Thornton Butterworth, 1940; France, Hitler m′a dit; Dutch Hitlers eigen woorden(by Menno ter Braak and Max Nord)

"The trouble with Weimar Republic politicians, he told Otto Wagener at much the same time, was that "they had never even read Marx", implying that no one who had failed to read so important an author could even begin to understand the modern world; in consequence, he went on, they imagined that the October revolution in 1917 had been "a private Russian affair", whereas in fact it had changed the whole course of human history! His differences with the communists, he explained, were less ideological than tactical. " - quoted from article"-

The above is quoted from the article which lists it's sources and which is why I wrote 'quoted from the article'.

His idea was to allow a more direct less international form of socialism-

"In our movement the two extremes come together: the Communists from the Left and the officers and students from the Right. These two have always been the most active elements."
Der Fuehrer Hitler’s Rise to Power, Konrad Heiden, Boston, MA, Beacon Press, 1969, p. 147, first published 1944. Hitler’s quote also cited in Totalitarianism: Part Three of The Origins of Totalitarianism, Hannah Arendt, A Harvest Book, 1985

" National Socialism is a doctrine that has reference exclusively to the German people. Bolshevism lays stress on international mission. " Speech made at the Reichstag (21 May 1935) Found in Translation of Herr Hitler's Speech to the German Reichstag on May 21, 1935 Foreign Office Press.

The Article isn't claiming that Socialism itself advocates for genocide merely that socialists in that time frame had done so- i'm not spending anymore time justifying what is common knowledge amongst people with even scant knowledge of the topic- I suggest you do the work for your self- start with googling 'social darwinism' and 'socialism and eugenics' .


Oats13 -""It isn't logical to say that just because Nietzsche criticised 'the socialist rabble' and that the nazis completely bastardised his work then Hitler can't admire also marx, one might greatly admire someones work but not agree with a specific criticism within some other part of their work, but this is not necessary to the debate as we have plenty of quotes from Hitler about his admiration of Marx/ism-""

Dolan -""Well, it actually is, it shows that if the article's thesis is right (which is doubtful), then Hitler's ideology was a mishmash of disparate ideas, taken from authors that would not have agreed with his freestyle interpretation. The idea that one could have used the concept of Ubermensch and the will-to-power to justify a socialist society would have triggered Nietzsche to no end. Nietzsche was a supporter of individual excellence and nobility vs the average non-distinctiveness of the masses. He would have considered using Ubermensch as a blueprint for the Socialist "New Man" completely bonkers and out of context. An Ubermensch, by definition, couldn't be anything common or averaged.
If Hitler thought the concept of Ubermensch was useful or relevant for building a socialist society, then he misunderstood it completely and I doubt he could have understood Marx either.""

No-one claimed such things in this debate- you are just bringing random things here in the hope of derailing the conversation- why is it so hard for you to accept that Hitler read, understood and admired both Nietzsche and Marx just like millions of other people?
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1. Hitler killed tons of communists, even before they start to kill the Jews. It's a joke to say "he learned anything from Marx".

2. Do you think the presidents of USA are angels? I guess the iroquois/lakotas/cherokees won't agree.

3. Russia is just such a strange civ. Lenin and Starlin made tons of crimes, but they DO build a strong, magnificent empire, and destroyed the Nazi once and for all. You may think that the current Russian politicans are "scum of the earth, a corrupt bunch of faggots", but Russia is still one of the most powerful nation on earth, and can destroy your weak european nations easily (if USA doesn't help).
We shouldn't use "common" theories to analyze such a civ.
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General appeal to the community- Am I being trolled here? or should I just facepalm and cease bothering?
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Post by Goodspeed »

Snuden wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:
Show hidden quotes
Russia isn't the only country with that problem

I never said that, and you never said I did.
And you never said that I said you did.
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Post by fei123456 »

4. The collapse of Soviet Empire (aka Soviet Union) doesn't prove that "Communism has failed". Instead, it's the dawn of a new era.

What do you think that gives us he welfares we have? Why do we only need to work 8*5 hours in a week? Who gives women the equal rights to work? What makes the Asia/Africa civs independent from UK/USA? The love of god? The kindness of the rich? The morality of Donald Trump?

Freedom always born in blood. Rights never drop from the heaven. It's the efforts of our ancestors, their sweat, their blood, their sacrifices, that gives us the freedom we have today. "Communism" is a part of our countries now —— every country, I mean.
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Re: Charges Filed: Trump Campaign Russian Ties

Post by Gendarme »

fei123456 wrote:What do you think that gives us he welfares we have? Why do we only need to work 8*5 hours in a week?
40 hours per week is a lot compared to what used to be necessary. By comparing it to people who have it even worse you're just fooling yourself. If it weren't for the insane amount of tax and the corrupt corporate-inflated prices, 40 hours wouldn't be needed. Think about it, working for 40 hours with today's technology is a lot more fruitful than working for 40 hours with the old technology, but despite that we're poorer than before. We're far worse off than we're supposed to be.

I'm not writing this as an argument against communism, only what is quoted.
Pay more attention to detail.
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Re: Charges Filed: Trump Campaign Russian Ties

Post by Snuden »

fei123456 wrote:4. The collapse of Soviet Empire (aka Soviet Union) doesn't prove that "Communism has failed". Instead, it's the dawn of a new era.

What do you think that gives us he welfares we have? Why do we only need to work 8*5 hours in a week? Who gives women the equal rights to work? What makes the Asia/Africa civs independent from UK/USA? The love of god? The kindness of the rich? The morality of Donald Trump?

Freedom always born in blood. Rights never drop from the heaven. It's the efforts of our ancestors, their sweat, their blood, their sacrifices, that gives us the freedom we have today. "Communism" is a part of our countries now —— every country, I mean.


Shenme but I must ask this: What system do you think China currently have? Still communism?
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Re: Charges Filed: Trump Campaign Russian Ties

Post by Snuden »

Your Honor! I file charges against the Chinese propaganda machine!
I hereby present exhibit A: fei123456
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Re: Charges Filed: Trump Campaign Russian Ties

Post by spanky4ever »

Snuden wrote:
fei123456 wrote:why? russian are not demons. you may not like them but it's stupid to act as if it's 1970s now.

Huh?
Their politicians are scum of the earth.

A corrupt bunch of faggots.


I agree that the Russian oligarchs skimming their country for weath, while staching their money in Tax havens, are scumbags and leeches. And so are everyone else who are taking the advantage of a country, but refuse to contribute. That is the opposit of Communism. It is the predator capitalism that are threathening all of our welfarestates, our good paying jobs, - and in the end also the predator themselves cos they need costumers in the end. Its the race to the bottom on full speed ahead.
This is why Sanders and the progressive movement in USA are gaining ground. And the same issue why populist on the right and left side of politics are on the rise.

Btw, Snuden?? Are the word "faggot" one of your favorits now? I just saw you getting alot of heat from this in another thread? Guess some ppl dont want to take a hint, and stubbornly keep on doing the same things over and over again, even though it makes them seem silly? Or are there other reasons why you think Faggot, or faggots are such a good word to use? Maybe the forum can help you develop other adjectives/subjectives for whatever meaning you are trying to get across to us :lol:
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Re: Charges Filed: Trump Campaign Russian Ties

Post by Snuden »

Yea, when I am on 4chan I use FaggotZ.
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Re: Charges Filed: Trump Campaign Russian Ties

Post by spanky4ever »

oats13 wrote:General appeal to the community- Am I being trolled here? or should I just facepalm and cease bothering?

lol, you insist on quoting this "article" like it was THE TRUTH, when it clearly is not. The only "news" about it, is that it makes such eyebrow raising claims :roll:
I think @Dolan has made very good arguments to why this is so, purly bs :o
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Re: Charges Filed: Trump Campaign Russian Ties

Post by oats13 »

iwillspankyou wrote:
oats13 wrote:General appeal to the community- Am I being trolled here? or should I just facepalm and cease bothering?

lol, you insist on quoting this "article" like it was THE TRUTH, when it clearly is not. The only "news" about it, is that it makes such eyebrow raising claims :roll:
I think @Dolan has made very good arguments to why this is so, purly bs :o


No- I'm quoting from sources listed and where I quote from the article I state that. Because the article makes it's own sources apparent, the sources from the article and from outside the article are therefore known - if you want to then criticise the sources you are free to directly do so.

I'm not stating anything remotely controversial or that hasn't been known to virtually anyone with an education for 50 years now and therefore I'm not going to continue in the face of trolling/ignorance, all of this is in the public domain and your willingness to accept this is in your own remit.
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Re: Charges Filed: Trump Campaign Russian Ties

Post by Goodspeed »

oats13 wrote:General appeal to the community- Am I being trolled here? or should I just facepalm and cease bothering?
I don't know, seems unlikely you're being trolled. More likely is that you're asking this as a way of insulting Dolan, which is disappointing.
Is there a point either of you is trying to make with all this? As far as I can see you're discussing whether an article is or isn't a piece of shit. I get the appeal but I can't say the discussion interests me at this point.

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