Charges Filed: Trump Campaign Russian Ties

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Re: Charges Filed: Trump Campaign Russian Ties

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Goodspeed wrote:
oats13 wrote:General appeal to the community- Am I being trolled here? or should I just facepalm and cease bothering?
I don't know, seems unlikely you're being trolled. More likely is that you're asking this as a way of insulting Dolan, which is disappointing.
Is there a point either of you is trying to make with all this? As far as I can see you're discussing whether an article is or isn't a piece of shit. I get the appeal but I can't say the discussion interests me at this point.


TY- I genuinely wondered what the level was- not just in reference to dolan but fei and spank also, it's ok I'm working it out for myself.

We are not just discussing an article- the article was first produced by way of supporting an assertion I made in a post referring to umeu- that assertion was then challenged by gendarme whereupon I produced the article which dolan then criticised, I believe quite plainly,in error-

I wouldn't spend my time producing much documented material just in order to insult someone but it is ofc frustrating to have to deal with criticisms that don't bear the weight of their own thrust.

NO- the reason I do this is to just try for one second to prise open this enormous clam of indoctrination into this 'if it is not A it must be Z,' right-left dualism that seems to dominate many of these discussions when in fact knowledge of history highlights meaningful contradictions in these matters - the whole subset of Russian Dolls is in fact founded upon umeu's statement that the 'socialism' in 'National Socialism' is merely a "misnomer"- understanding how authoritarian regimes both of the perceived 'left and right' share many beliefs is crucial to developing a more nuanced view of history, and indeed, the world.

Society and especially young people seem to be fevered in their splits over the last 5-10 years and populist dogma on all sides isn't helping matters.

Having the idea that left=good and right=bad, and that Marx=left and Hitler=right is really a non a developed perception of politics- for people on either 'side' to just admit one thing is wrong with the extremes and to step inwards,as it were, towards a world view where social democracy has a dialogue with modern conservatism that ends up as being dialectic i.e progressive in the truest sense of the word, is a huge step forwards and can save one about ten years of frustration if one makes it.
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Re: Charges Filed: Trump Campaign Russian Ties

Post by Goodspeed »

:hmm: I don't know if it has been that much of an issue here. Mostly when there are discussions here it's people disagreeing with each other on something fairly specific, not "left is good, right is bad" or the other way around. Certainly is an issue in politics though, especially in the USA and therefore the rest of the world. With only 2 parties, people picking sides and only getting more entrenched in whatever side they chose is unavoidable.

What's interesting is that while you claim to be all about the nuance, most of your presence ITT has been you arguing that socialism is evil. And on top of being eager to pick a side yourself, you assign one to Hitler and think Dolan is trolling you when he tries to explain the matter may not be as black and white as you think.

Projection?
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Re: Charges Filed: Trump Campaign Russian Ties

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This is the whole point- socialism/=/ 'the left'- actual state enforced classic marxist socialism is evil in every way not just because of it's equivalence in authoritarianism to any other fascist ideology but in that it necessarily stands in the way of market driven ideas that have proven to create more solutions that state directed ideas- just like the thread about sociopathy, socialism is a real thing and not some cuddly thing either, having the knowledge of it provides some degree of proportionality and hence a more nuanced view- this stuff is important because these people are still out there- revolutionary marxists and neo-nazis can't be allowed to undermine what has been achieved here in Europe and beyond IMO.

I'm not assigning one 'side' to Hitler other that that he was a massively negative, crazed, confused individual and that he read understood and admired both nietszche and marx which is almost completely uncontested in any academic arena.

It is precisely the black and white of partisan politics that i'm against.

If I'm explaining to Dolan that something isn't black and white and he disagrees he can't be then explaining to me that it isn't black or white- he must be either saying IT IS more black and white or arguing against the composition of my argument to which end he questioned my sources- which is why I then produced the sources.
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Re: Charges Filed: Trump Campaign Russian Ties

Post by Goodspeed »

oats13 wrote:This is the whole point- socialism/=/ 'the left'- actual state enforced classic marxist socialism is evil in every way ...
Yet modern socialism is not that. If that is really your whole point, then you are indeed so entrenched in one side that you fail to see the other side can have nuance, too. No, socialism isn't evil. Your definition of the word may well be, which very probably is the reason you choose to define it that way.
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Re: Charges Filed: Trump Campaign Russian Ties

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Goodspeed wrote:
oats13 wrote:This is the whole point- socialism/=/ 'the left'- actual state enforced classic marxist socialism is evil in every way ...
Yet modern socialism is not that. If that is really your whole point, then you are indeed so entrenched in one side that you fail to see the other side can have nuance, too. No, socialism isn't evil. Your definition of the word may well be, which very probably is the reason you choose to define it that way.



oh jesus.............. it's like people don't even recognise things anymore- now you are talking about sth else this 'modern socialism' which if 'socialism' is not defined then is by definition less defined itself...............

I'll put it simply what you call 'modern socialism' is in fact social democracy which is a russian doll that lives inside capitalism not in opposition to it.

Inside the doll of social democracy live people who know what it is and people who are actual socialists.
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Re: Charges Filed: Trump Campaign Russian Ties

Post by spanky4ever »

@oats13 said:
having the knowledge of it provides some degree of proportionality and hence a more nuanced view- this stuff is important because these people are still out there- revolutionary marxists and neo-nazis can't be allowed to undermine what has been achieved here in Europe and beyond IMO.


What is undermining the Europeans and Americans aswell, is not revolutionary marxism, and sosialism though. But I agree that the way of life we are accustomed to, are being undermined in a big way now.
Talking about markeds and capitalism, do you really think that Big corporations are working for the "free marked"? Or do you see it as I do (and the feared left side): trying to get monopoly, by merging in to increasingly bigger and bigger international corporations?
This has been going on for the last decades.
This is not only threathening our welfare states. But also the environment and the future of the next generations.
Would you agree :?:
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Re: Charges Filed: Trump Campaign Russian Ties

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Snuden wrote:
fei123456 wrote:4. The collapse of Soviet Empire (aka Soviet Union) doesn't prove that "Communism has failed". Instead, it's the dawn of a new era.

What do you think that gives us he welfares we have? Why do we only need to work 8*5 hours in a week? Who gives women the equal rights to work? What makes the Asia/Africa civs independent from UK/USA? The love of god? The kindness of the rich? The morality of Donald Trump?

Freedom always born in blood. Rights never drop from the heaven. It's the efforts of our ancestors, their sweat, their blood, their sacrifices, that gives us the freedom we have today. "Communism" is a part of our countries now —— every country, I mean.


Shenme but I must ask this: What system do you think China currently have? Still communism?

No.
There're actually NO fully-communism country in the world.
However, everyone is sharing the benefits of communism now. Soviet Union is bad tho, but its presence FORCES the western countries to ensure the welfare of the labours, the rights of the women, the independence of African countries, and even to send astronauts to the moon, to win the competition vs the SU.
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Re: Charges Filed: Trump Campaign Russian Ties

Post by oats13 »

@spanky4ever

Currently faith in nation states is being eroded, the only beneficiaries of this are actual socialists and corporations (more so the corporations)- nation states democratically driven and well informed are the only power big enough to stand up to both corporatism and fascism IMO
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Re: Charges Filed: Trump Campaign Russian Ties

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oats13 wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:
oats13 wrote:This is the whole point- socialism/=/ 'the left'- actual state enforced classic marxist socialism is evil in every way ...
Yet modern socialism is not that. If that is really your whole point, then you are indeed so entrenched in one side that you fail to see the other side can have nuance, too. No, socialism isn't evil. Your definition of the word may well be, which very probably is the reason you choose to define it that way.
Oh jesus.............. it's like people don't even recognise things anymore- now you are talking about sth else this 'modern socialism' which if 'socialism' is not defined then is by definition less defined itself...............
Less defined than what?
Socialism is defined, but there are many forms. The form you speak of is the most extreme, which is why I think it's funny you choose to argue based on it considering you claim to be so against speaking in extremes.
I'll put it simply what you call 'modern socialism' is in fact social democracy
What makes you say that?
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Re: Charges Filed: Trump Campaign Russian Ties

Post by fei123456 »

Gendarme wrote:
fei123456 wrote:What do you think that gives us he welfares we have? Why do we only need to work 8*5 hours in a week?
40 hours per week is a lot compared to what used to be necessary. By comparing it to people who have it even worse you're just fooling yourself. If it weren't for the insane amount of tax and the corrupt corporate-inflated prices, 40 hours wouldn't be needed. Think about it, working for 40 hours with today's technology is a lot more fruitful than working for 40 hours with the old technology, but despite that we're poorer than before. We're far worse off than we're supposed to be.

I'm not writing this as an argument against communism, only what is quoted.

I'm not comparing 40 hours' work time to these days. Maybe people don't need to work at all due to fully-developed AI in the future?

But the labours 100+ years ago in western countries didn't have such a happy life then. 40 hours is a dream to them.

Guess your grand-grandfather was a wealthy one years ago?
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If we can't agree a definition of socialism then 'modern socialism' must just be an even less defined thing- I suggest that Marx is the best person to define socialism and that seems as he is dead the best place to start is to read his books.

Conflating extremes of an economic theory with extremes of speech( i,e definitions i.e how language works) isn't logical IMO- at what point do the 'many forms' of something differ so greatly from the original that it is no longer the same thing at all?-
perhaps at the point where it flatly contradicts the aims of the original?

If it is extreme to call a thing a thing then we are all in deep trouble (and this is why post-modernism is also evil :P )

Think of a notional continuum starting from a point where we have a world where individuals have private control of all capital with no restrictions and this runs towards another notional extreme where no private individual controls capital- as soon as one steps off of either notional extreme one is now IN the continuum and the question now is one of balance- to what extent should individuals control capital and what other factors should be taken into account.

The point is that the notional extremes of this paradigm do not actually exist.

Once one steps into (as one must) the continuum of capital one is inside the russian doll of capitalism where social democracy competes with laissez faire economic liberalism- that is not socialism- calling it modern socialism must be contradictory- either modern socialism is socialism where individuals can control capital (contradictory if socialism is opposed to individual control of capital) or modern socialism is simply socialism in a modern country- china or venezuala- much better to simply call it social democracy and call out the real socialists out there who would make the last century meaningless given half a chance.
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Post by spanky4ever »

Guess the 700 000 ppl that China has lifted out of poverty, would disagree with you @oats13 . Could b they think its rather meaningfull. Lol
Btw, there are no rigid way of defining sosialism. Pretty much the way there is no rigid way of defining any -isms.
What it is all about though, is that the people who produce the weath, should deside over more of it, and what to produce, where to produce. and what to do with the profit. AND own the tools for production. That is the bottom line in all sosialism, if you so want a definition.
Sosialism and Marxism is a critisism and thus a product of capitalism, and not a fixed theory by itself.
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China lifted those people out of poverty by killing 45 million people, market solutions have lifted half the worlds population out of poverty in the last 50 years including more in china than were 'helped' by the great leap forwards- we spoke about this before- you said that 45 million was worth it- that's 7.5 times worse than Hitler if you want to do baseline.............

"Sosialism and Marxism is a critisism and thus a product of capitalism, and not a fixed theory by itself."

Precisely!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! finally someone gets it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and this is why pursuing this notional extreme, this 'left pole' from where all directions are 'right' as a good in itself is evil not only in that it mirrors the pursuit of the notional 'right pole' from where all directions are left but it leads directly away from the centre from where the best solutions derive and thus denies the poor and the oppressed the fruits of these solutions- the ultimate irony experienced by millions.

Spank- now try redrawing the paradigm and re-balance the conflict, this time now between pursuing these solutions and the environmental consequences of our current solutions- you may now proceed directly to the 21st century.
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Would be cool if you can send a political card in AOE 4. Or maybe just a culture card.
Sending the Hippie card will make your vills work backwards, or at the very best just idle.

Just random thoughts, while enjoying a pipe of tobacco.
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Casting a Faggot card spell on your opponents army will make them drop their weapons instantly.
If done, while you are in age IV, they will even change gender.

User was warned for this post.
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Please move above post to "Strategy" forum.
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@oats13 could you document that China has killed 45 million people please? Btw, I forgot 3 digits above, its actually 700 million people that where lifted out of extreme powerty since 1981 :o

Are you referring to the "great Chinese Famine"? https://www.google.no/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... h8y_VUna5L

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9QtIfPIQl4
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Post by Goodspeed »

oats13 wrote:Conflating extremes of an economic theory with extremes of speech( i,e definitions i.e how language works) isn't logical IMO- at what point do the 'many forms' of something differ so greatly from the original that it is no longer the same thing at all?-
Right I meant thinking in extremes.
It can still be a different implementation of the same idea.
If it is extreme to call a thing a thing then we are all in deep trouble (and this is why post-modernism is also evil :P )
It's extreme to call the whole thing evil, especially considering you are doing so based on the most extreme definition of it. Most things taken to extremes are evil. Is capitalism in its most extreme form not evil?
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Now China only kill around 1 million a year (due to air pollution)
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Snuden wrote:Now China only kill around 1 million a year (due to air pollution)

The estimat is that 9 million ppl die from air pollution a year. If China where average, there should be 2,2 million deaths there?

The pollution is terrible though. The only upside to this is that China is going Green energy full speed ahead. Tesla are going to build a new factory in Shanghai. And China is the largest producer of solar energy now, and they are building at a very fast paste. In addition to that, China are converting desert to productive farming land.
The really exiting things when it comes to green energy and planting on former desert land, Is China :o
https://youtu.be/N8_Hnmty4vY
https://youtu.be/KPhsFrwnHXo
https://youtu.be/p8lPC1u79RI
https://www.google.no/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... pYk63pRo0Y

Meanwhile Trump are giving fossile industry the clear to go full speed ahead in USA. Btw, Norway was just given the reward for being a fossile turtle, cos our government want to drill in the Barent sea. I think we (or they) deserve it :hmm:
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I got my number from a WHO report.
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Snuden wrote:I got my number from a WHO report.

guess you did not read my post :roll:
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Post by Snuden »

iwillspankyou wrote:
Snuden wrote:I got my number from a WHO report.

guess you did not read my post :roll:

I did indeed read your post, which seems to contradict my number of 1 million, since China is way above average, when it comes to deaths caused by pollution.
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Post by spanky4ever »

Snuden wrote:
iwillspankyou wrote:
Snuden wrote:I got my number from a WHO report.

guess you did not read my post :roll:

I did indeed read your post, which seems to contradict my number of 1 million, since China is way above average, when it comes to deaths caused by pollution.

9 millions deaths - china is about 1/4 of the pop and have 1 million deaths. 9 devided by .25= 2+ and under 50% of the world average. :P
do the math dude
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Post by oats13 »

Goodspeed wrote:
oats13 wrote:Conflating extremes of an economic theory with extremes of speech( i,e definitions i.e how language works) isn't logical IMO- at what point do the 'many forms' of something differ so greatly from the original that it is no longer the same thing at all?-
Right I meant thinking in extremes.
It can still be a different implementation of the same idea.
If it is extreme to call a thing a thing then we are all in deep trouble (and this is why post-modernism is also evil :P )
It's extreme to call the whole thing evil, especially considering you are doing so based on the most extreme definition of it. Most things taken to extremes are evil. Is capitalism in its most extreme form not evil?



@Goodspeed

I want to deal with this idea of extremes in order- I am not saying that you are saying any of these things merely working through all possibilities towards a logical conclusion.

Firstly is it extreme to use the word evil?

I am not using this in a religious sense but in this sense- it is common these days to contemplate what are in fact complimentary opposites in isolation.

For example man and woman- it is hard to define these in isolation but when taken as complimentary opposites it is clear- if two people are left alone on an island and produce a baby then even though it maybe impossible to define either of them as male of female individually it is certain that together they comprise man and woman.

With reference to the term evil it is simply the complimentary opposite of good and it is not extreme I think to believe in good- I believe that this thing 'socialism' is necessarily and directly in opposition to the common good for the reasons I gave before- that it prevents the conditions required for the most effective market based solutions (tempered by social conscience) to be enabled and that it's central tenets alloy it to this condition.

Which leads us to the other point as to what this 'socialism' is- my definition is as close to Marx's intention as I am able to manage whereas you contend that the meaning of this is not merely open to contention (which of course it is) but that some modern version of this definition has been agreed or exists- my understanding of this is that in fact socialists and social democrats themselves insist upon such a distinction- I suggest respectfully that you talk to avowed members of either distinction in order to gain better understanding of it than I can manage.

"is capitalism in it's most extreme form not evil?"-

Put simply YES- according to my definition.

But what is interesting here is that that particular evil is the same one as the other- it manifests in the same way, with the same justifications and tendencies because it is in opposition to the same common good- (this is precisely why I raised this issue) and here is why-

A recent study in Sweden concluded that not only were societal attitudes towards differences between woman and men widening but actual physical differences were widening, the contention was that contrary to lessening the differences between the sexes in fact the officially feminist government policies were having the opposite effect.

The theory was that in artificially removing the socialised barriers in society what had been achieved was not an environment that allowed the sameness of the sexes to be displayed but in fact one where only the differences were able to take effect- hinting that the socialised barriers were in fact performing as checks and balances on those differences.

In reference to capitalism and socialism what happens is that when the socialised barriers to capital and therefore power are artificially removed from the 'landscape' of the society the exact same thing happens- those things become exaggerated instead of dissipating as Marx contended.

Put simply when the 'victim' of a fatal dose of capitalism is able to bully and behave outside of the socialised norms of economically regulated groups he simply becomes more likely to fall victim to his worst desires and we all know the result of this- at the 'other' end of the scale the newly economically emancipated group simply flattens out the 'landscape' and enables rapid acceleration of the differences that enable the 'winners' in this new environment to simply recreate the tendencies of the former group- this is in fact historically what has happened, in fact why would it not happen? why would we expect an artificial reordering of economics to produce an equal reordering of mans' 'condition'?

Someone once said that there is no greater index to a man's desires than that which he wishes to censure and I'd amend that to include the voracity with which he does so- with that in mind and within the context of this thread I can see how you might have considered some of the things you suggest- I can't do any better than to assure you that in the context of any future threads any misgivings will mostly (maybe entirely) be altered.

@spanky4ever I don't need to produce documentation of Mao's genocide as there are thousands of books that do it better- here is one such- https://www.amazon.co.uk/Maos-Great-Fam ... 1408810034 put simply the improvements in china's poverty have come in lock-step with it's lessening of classic socialist dogma not the reverse.

In fact spank i'm going to do you a solid- i'm offering to pay for either the above book or for a copy of 'the gulag archipelago' to be sent to you via amazon on my account- you choose which and which address to have it sent .
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