27 people lost their lives in a shooting, Sutherland Springs, Texas

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Italy gamevideo113
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Re: 27 people lost their lives in a shooting, Sutherland Springs, Texas

Post by gamevideo113 »

I don't think guns of any kind should be allowed, overall a country without free access to weapons feels safer. But at the same time for example here in Italy people don't have many tools to defend from burglars, and while i don't think you should shoot a burglar, i think that free access to guns heavily deters this kind of criminality. To be honest though a pistol is all you'll ever need for personal defense, so i definitely think that the US could rework their laws on guns. Automatic rifles surely are more of a threat for the population than a tool for personal defense.
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Re: 27 people lost their lives in a shooting, Sutherland Springs, Texas

Post by Hidddy_ »

Unfortunately this happens all the time in America because of our hyper violent culture and out extreme lack of empathy. The federal government also does nothing to help and in fact feeds the fire by not caring jack shit about its citizens. I mention the federal government only because this has become a national issue. At this point mass shootings in our country have become routine and that is something that should never be.
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Re: 27 people lost their lives in a shooting, Sutherland Springs, Texas

Post by momuuu »

I dont think psychopaths/poor people that enter someone's property to kill that person are very.. common? In the case of an armed robbery you're still not even allowed to use a gun and kill someone most of the time, that's how law works.
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Re: 27 people lost their lives in a shooting, Sutherland Springs, Texas

Post by benj89 »

Jerom wrote:I dont think psychopaths/poor people that enter someone's property to kill that person are very.. common? In the case of an armed robbery you're still not even allowed to use a gun and kill someone most of the time, that's how law works.

People break into houses to steal on a regular basis, at least that happened in the town I grew up in France, including my house. If you oppose resistance to people stealing from you, that's when violence occurs. Then you have the case where the person is just a psychopath and it also happened close to where I lived.

Better be judged by 12 than carried than 6, right?
As for how law works according to you, in reality it depends a lot from countries to countries and states to states, but in general I wouldn't be worried about my defense if I had to shoot a burglar who came in my property with a knife/gun and did not flee once I signaled my presence (which implies aggressive behavior toward my person since he would then feel threatened and rush toward me or flee). Owning a gun also means knowing how to use it - I would shoot to neutralize him, not to kill.
I'm not going to study the whole french or usa jurisprudence to prove to prove my point, and I am aware that it could potentially include jail time even if I could legally invoke self defense. I guess that's a price I'm willing to pay to have the peace of mind that I can at least try to protect my family in case the worst happens. The castle doctrine seems interesting in the case of the US, but then again I'd probably study all that once I buy a house.
If the burglar/psycho is fleeing once he sees/hears you, then that's something else and you shouldn't do anything besides calling the cops
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Re: 27 people lost their lives in a shooting, Sutherland Springs, Texas

Post by zoom »

benj89 wrote:
zoom wrote:
benj89 wrote:not really if you consider that if the shooter gets killed, the death toll stops. I'm not really into the gun debate, to me a citizen should be able to be armed to protect himself after solid background checks. I'll buy a glock as soon as I get a house and a family
Of course you will – you're living in a land where anyone at all could kill anyone at all at any time. I would be fucking scared.

I would do the exact same thing if I happen to live in France or anywhere else. It's just a matter of not depending on 911 to protect yourself and your family against psychopaths/poor ppl, which are sadly a part of every country. Quick google search told me that in France, about 4.5k armed robbery happened with guns in 2015, and 5.5k with knifes.

The point is, the world is violent, and I want to be able to defend myself. Now if you can't acknowledge that, either you grew up in a very privileged environment, either you are willing to depend on police/luck for your own safety - I'm not.
If your environment is at all like Sweden, I'd call you paranoid.
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Re: 27 people lost their lives in a shooting, Sutherland Springs, Texas

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Post by WickedCossack »

benj89 wrote:The point is, the world is violent, and I want to be able to defend myself. Now if you can't acknowledge that, either you grew up in a very privileged environment, either you are willing to depend on police/luck for your own safety - I'm not.


Sure, I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that.

But how would you reconcile your safety concerns when the statistics show that you put yourself at a greater risk by owning a gun?

There's a ludicrous abundance of studies on this and I appreciate also there's different situations regarding gun safety but just to cover 3 different sub-topics:

A recent meta-analysis which indicates that gun ownership doubles the risk of homicide and triples the risk of suicide: http://annals.org/aim/fullarticle/1814426/accessibility-firearms-risk-suicide-homicide-victimization-among-household-members-systematic

A national (US) survey showing that a gun in the household is significantly more likely to be used against a family member or partner than to be used in self defense: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10619696

US DoJ NCVS statistics (data from all recorded crime in America) https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fv9311.pdf & https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv11.pdf showing owning a gun does not make you safer only in instances of protecting yourself from an armed intruder. Admittedly it doesn't make it less safe though.

I just had a quick look at some polls and interestingly enough a majority of Americans (~ 63%) believe that a gun makes the home a safer place which is factually incorrect. There's a clear disconnect between perception and reality. Where do you fall into this?

The one positive statistic I can find that is in favour of owning a gun is that it can reduce the instance of criminals that have the sole intent to steal. I wouldn't classify material protection as safety however, do you? Or material protection is important enough in it's own right?

(If I was an American) I'd make the following argument that I don't own a gun precisely because I do want to protect myself (and family.) Which is essentially your argument in favour of owning a gun.
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Re: 27 people lost their lives in a shooting, Sutherland Springs, Texas

Post by momuuu »

Thats a KO for gun advocates. Let the durr freedom arguments begin!
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Re: 27 people lost their lives in a shooting, Sutherland Springs, Texas

Post by benj89 »

@WickedCossack, i'll look through these later this week (potentially next) and answer then
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Re: 27 people lost their lives in a shooting, Sutherland Springs, Texas

Post by deleted_user »

Probably would be safer if we never let vehicles get above 40 mph too.

The reality is the safety of the gross population can and is sacrificed for the convenience (in this case safety) of the individual.

You cite studies which consider trends across a reasonable sample size. But this is an issue about the individual. The fact is there exists a responsible gun owner out there who has saved his own life by owning and carrying a gun. You can take that right away from him to benefit the statistics of the group but that's an entirely different debate. I guess the issue just devolves into ethics which is even muddier. To be honest I side with rights for the individual.
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Re: 27 people lost their lives in a shooting, Sutherland Springs, Texas

Post by gamevideo113 »

WickedCossack wrote:The one positive statistic I can find that is in favour of owning a gun is that it can reduce the instance of criminals that have the sole intent to steal. I wouldn't classify material protection as safety however, do you? Or material protection is important enough in it's own right?


Sometimes burglars are persistent and they aren't kind about it. If they break into your house, your "materials" are what matters the least, as your safety is in danger too. Especially with old people, they take advantage of their superior physical strength to threaten the victim in order to know where the money/jewelry is. For all the reasons you mentioned i would not keep a gun in my house, but a gun does not require physical strength to be used and i can see why it does actually make some people's houses safer. A burglar will think twice before trying to break in someone's house if he knows they have a gun.

This said, having guns available to everyone might mean more safety in one's house from external threats, but it also means more danger for everyone outside of your house so i believe the arguments for banning weapons are still better than those for keeping them.
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Re: 27 people lost their lives in a shooting, Sutherland Springs, Texas

Post by momuuu »

deleted_user wrote:Probably would be safer if we never let vehicles get above 40 mph too.

The reality is the safety of the gross population can and is sacrificed for the convenience (in this case safety) of the individual.

You cite studies which consider trends across a reasonable sample size. But this is an issue about the individual. The fact is there exists a responsible gun owner out there who has saved his own life by owning and carrying a gun. You can take that right away from him to benefit the statistics of the group but that's an entirely different debate. I guess the issue just devolves into ethics which is even muddier. To be honest I side with rights for the individual.

Restricting cars to 40mph is not really comparable though :/
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Re: 27 people lost their lives in a shooting, Sutherland Springs, Texas

Post by deleted_user »

I never really said it's analogous. It's an example showing we don't necessarily approach problems strictly in terms of minimizing overall harm.
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Re: 27 people lost their lives in a shooting, Sutherland Springs, Texas

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It's seriously just group benefit vs individual benefit.
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Re: 27 people lost their lives in a shooting, Sutherland Springs, Texas

Post by deleted_user »

Well the debate is probably pointless anyways and unless anyone here is a philosopher it will probably be illy constructed too.
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Re: 27 people lost their lives in a shooting, Sutherland Springs, Texas

Post by pecelot »

27 people lost their lives in my country in the past week due to traffic. For crying out loud. This is terrible.
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Re: 27 people lost their lives in a shooting, Sutherland Springs, Texas

Post by gamevideo113 »

Trump says it is a "mental issue problem", not a "weapon problem". So I wonder if the same would have happened if the guy didn't have a gun... :hmm:
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Re: 27 people lost their lives in a shooting, Sutherland Springs, Texas

Post by JakeyBoyTH »

gamevideo113 wrote:Trump says it is a "mental issue problem", not a "weapon problem". So I wonder if the same would have happened if the guy didn't have a gun... :hmm:


This guy should have been locked up.
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Re: 27 people lost their lives in a shooting, Sutherland Springs, Texas

Post by WickedCossack »

deleted_user wrote:You cite studies which consider trends across a reasonable sample size. But this is an issue about the individual. The fact is there exists a responsible gun owner out there who has saved his own life by owning and carrying a gun. You can take that right away from him to benefit the statistics of the group but that's an entirely different debate. I guess the issue just devolves into ethics which is even muddier. To be honest I side with rights for the individual.


Sure, I get that it comes down to the individual. That's precisely why the majority of Americans believe a gun makes the home safer, because I'm not a statistic, I'm not suicidal, I don't want to kill people, I'm not like those other people, those stats don't apply to me the individual. It's always someone's belief that they're unique but when you take a step back are you really? The statistics show that you're not.

As an aside it's that belief that drives a lot of political stances in America right now (healthcare, social-care etc.)
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Re: 27 people lost their lives in a shooting, Sutherland Springs, Texas

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Onion articles are great representations of truth in a manner which considers all the nuances present.
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Re: 27 people lost their lives in a shooting, Sutherland Springs, Texas

Post by Dolan »

fei123456 wrote:it's UNIMAGINABLE that people are killed by guns here.

Same here. Basically there was never one single killing spree in the history of Romania. No school shootings, no church shootings, none of these happens here.

And people who buy weapons on the black market end up doing time in prison when they get caught.

But this culture of shooting real firearms for fun or using guns to solve your problems (suicide, shooting sprees etc) is completely missing here, in Europe. The only situation in which real firearms are used here is for hunting, and that is very strictly regulated and checked. For target practice I think there are special non-lethal guns which are used and they can only be used in regulated places.

And still, people in this country revolted against a Communist dictatorship and succeeded in overthrowing it. Without owning weapons.
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Re: 27 people lost their lives in a shooting, Sutherland Springs, Texas

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:(
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Re: 27 people lost their lives in a shooting, Sutherland Springs, Texas

Post by fungu »

phpBB [video]


This, minus the gender issue.

Dolan wrote:But this culture of shooting real firearms for fun or using guns to solve your problems (suicide, shooting sprees etc) is completely missing here, in Europe. The only situation in which real firearms are used here is for hunting, and that is very strictly regulated and checked. For target practice I think there are special non-lethal guns which are used and they can only be used in regulated places.


In general European countries are better places to live for most people. I mean the society here isn't as competetive, yet.
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Re: 27 people lost their lives in a shooting, Sutherland Springs, Texas

Post by zosgan »

may allah punish them
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Re: 27 people lost their lives in a shooting, Sutherland Springs, Texas

Post by momuuu »

deleted_user wrote:It's seriously just group benefit vs individual benefit.

But it's not! It's in the individual benefit to have nobody, the individual himself included, have guns. That's how statistics work.

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