ESOC Crypto Corner

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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: ESOC Crypto Corner

Post by Goodspeed »

Gendarme wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:I just don't see the average family choosing to own cryptocurrency over fiat anytime soon.
I don't think it is that far-fetched. With the lightning network this could all be implemented quite quickly, and there would be no real reason for companies to not accept BTC (or other coins) as payment. If government cracks down it then a lot of businesses won't do that of course, but it would also increase the appeal for Bitcoin on other fronts as it proves the need for it.
I'm not saying it's technically impossible. Just that the benefits for your average family won't be good enough for them to switch. Ask yourself: in the opinion of the average consumer, what's wrong with the current way of doing things? Why would they switch?
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Re: ESOC Crypto Corner

Post by fightinfrenchman »

Goodspeed wrote:
Gendarme wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:I just don't see the average family choosing to own cryptocurrency over fiat anytime soon.
I don't think it is that far-fetched. With the lightning network this could all be implemented quite quickly, and there would be no real reason for companies to not accept BTC (or other coins) as payment. If government cracks down it then a lot of businesses won't do that of course, but it would also increase the appeal for Bitcoin on other fronts as it proves the need for it.
I'm not saying it's technically impossible. Just that the benefits for your average family won't be good enough for them to switch. Ask yourself: in the opinion of the average consumer, what's wrong with the current way of doing things? Why would they switch?


My big problem with banks is overdraft fees. They're lame af, and I want my $37 back. I could have bought three bottles of vodka with that!
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Sweden Gendarme
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Re: ESOC Crypto Corner

Post by Gendarme »

Goodspeed wrote:
Gendarme wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:I just don't see the average family choosing to own cryptocurrency over fiat anytime soon.
I don't think it is that far-fetched. With the lightning network this could all be implemented quite quickly, and there would be no real reason for companies to not accept BTC (or other coins) as payment. If government cracks down it then a lot of businesses won't do that of course, but it would also increase the appeal for Bitcoin on other fronts as it proves the need for it.
I'm not saying it's technically impossible. Just that the benefits for your average family won't be good enough for them to switch. Ask yourself: in the opinion of the average consumer, what's wrong with the current way of doing things? Why would they switch?
I think you underestimate the number of people doing relevant illegal things. Tax-evasion extremely common, although it is hard to see that if you aren't... well... experienced.
Pay more attention to detail.
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No Flag fightinfrenchman
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Re: ESOC Crypto Corner

Post by fightinfrenchman »

Gendarme wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:
Show hidden quotes
I'm not saying it's technically impossible. Just that the benefits for your average family won't be good enough for them to switch. Ask yourself: in the opinion of the average consumer, what's wrong with the current way of doing things? Why would they switch?
I think you underestimate the number of people doing relevant illegal things. Tax-evasion extremely common, although it is hard to see that if you aren't... well... experienced.


Do you have any evidence to back up how common tax evasion is? There is an enormous difference between cleverly using legal tax loopholes and illegally evading taxes.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: ESOC Crypto Corner

Post by Goodspeed »

Gendarme wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:
Show hidden quotes
I'm not saying it's technically impossible. Just that the benefits for your average family won't be good enough for them to switch. Ask yourself: in the opinion of the average consumer, what's wrong with the current way of doing things? Why would they switch?
I think you underestimate the number of people doing relevant illegal things. Tax-evasion extremely common, although it is hard to see that if you aren't... well... experienced.
I don't think it's that common, but even if it is, you think a currency used primarily for illegal things will become mainstream? Seems unlikely
Besides, if governments really want to regulate it they can. It's blockchain based, after all.
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Re: ESOC Crypto Corner

Post by Gendarme »

Well, the evidence there if you come and look for yourself, but there are no statistics other than the occasional cases where companies are caught and fined (but are undeterred). I cannot speak for USA, but I doubt there's a lot of difference between Sweden and most other western European countries. Many small businesses would simply fail if it weren't for tax-evasion.

@Goodspeed Not primarily used for illegal things, but the utility of being able to use it for illegal things as well is the main appeal. Whether it mainly becomes used for illegal things or not completely depends on what laws governments decide to implement. I'd say it's quite hard to regulate, especially with Bulletproof zk-SNARK—at the very least not easier to regulate than cash, which is becoming increasingly uncommon and another reason we need crypto.
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Re: ESOC Crypto Corner

Post by Snuden »

Why do most of you keep referring to crypto as a currency?
Most coins are not intended to work as an everyday method of payment.

By far most coins/tokens are issued instead of stocks/shares - in other words, you invest in a company.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: ESOC Crypto Corner

Post by Goodspeed »

@Gendarme You envision a future where money supply is not controlled by governments/central banks, and I don't. I think that's ultimately where we disagree.

@Snuden Because that's what Gendarme is presenting as the real world use case of coins like Bitcoin. Also, "currency" is in the name. Cryptocurrencies aren't meant to be ways to invest in a company. Tokens used for funding are a smart way to gain investors because people see crypto and they invest, but this has little to do with the concept of cryptocurrency.
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Re: ESOC Crypto Corner

Post by Snuden »

Just because "currency" is in the name does not mean it is a currency in it's traditional meaning.

I am willing to bet that >95% of new ICO's are meant as a mean of investment. This is what blockchain technology has evolved into.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: ESOC Crypto Corner

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That was my point earlier about the dotcom bubble. Then, you added "www" to your project and everyone invested. Same here: you add a "cryptocurrency" to your project and everyone invests, even if it serves no purpose other than to fund your startup.
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Re: ESOC Crypto Corner

Post by Snuden »

Most functions like shares/stocks. Some companies pay out dividends, others don't.
The shares CAN be used as a method of payment, even though it was not the intention.

I think it's great.

There are tons of articles floating around about how blockchain technology can help fight corruption, environmental issues, etc...
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: ESOC Crypto Corner

Post by Goodspeed »

Well yes cryptocurrencies are but one of many applications of blockchain.
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Re: ESOC Crypto Corner

Post by Gendarme »

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Pay more attention to detail.
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Re: ESOC Crypto Corner

Post by Snuden »

Casino & gambling sites is another good example... Serious casino's use blockchain to verify each roll of the dice, spin of the roulette and so on.
This can all be verified by the user.
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Re: ESOC Crypto Corner

Post by Gendarme »

I really like the idea of open blockchain gambling, actually. The reason I don't play online-poker is because I am seriously suspicious of the fairness. I am fairly certain that I am not under the influence of confirmation bias, so it is either insane blessings by @RNJesus@jesus3 or actual manipulation—on several websites, not just PokerStars.
Pay more attention to detail.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: ESOC Crypto Corner

Post by Goodspeed »

What motive would they have to manipulate results? You are winning the money of other users, not that of the platform itself. The platform simply gets a small cut of each pot.
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Re: ESOC Crypto Corner

Post by Gendarme »

You are assuming that everyone at the table are people just like you, which is not necessarily the case. They could be bots or affiliates/insiders. Furthermore, it may be profitable to give newcomers some beginner's luck to get them hooked and then rip them off their money which is precisely what I experienced on several websites.
Pay more attention to detail.
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Re: ESOC Crypto Corner

Post by Snuden »

In games where you play vs the house, the house usually have a 0.5-1% edge. Verifiable on the blockchain!
For gamblers it is certainly a game changer.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: ESOC Crypto Corner

Post by Goodspeed »

Gendarme wrote:You are assuming that everyone at the table are people just like you, which is not necessarily the case. They could be bots or affiliates/insiders. Furthermore, it may be profitable to give newcomers some beginner's luck to get them hooked and then rip them off their money which is precisely what I experienced on several websites.
Or you saw what you wanted to see but really poker is a harder game than you thought.
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Re: ESOC Crypto Corner

Post by Gendarme »

That's certainly not what I wanted to see and neither is is about me losing money in poker, and I have not made a definitive claim about the poker sites either—which is the case most of the time you accuse me of silly things (the last time being in this very thread accusing me of thinking that Bitcoin is a conspiracy when all I did was to take the possibility into consideration). I'd say that if the poker sites do not manipulate, my suspicion is due to a small sample size and somewhat extraordinary RNGeezus-influence rather than confirmation bias. It wouldn't be the first time poker sites turned out to be corrupt anyway: http://money.cnn.com/2012/07/02/news/co ... /index.htm
Pay more attention to detail.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: ESOC Crypto Corner

Post by Goodspeed »

When did I "accuse" you of thinking BTC is a conspiracy? I don't recall it but to be fair that does sound like me. I make fun because you obviously have a tendency to believe conspiracies. Here, you said you were "seriously suspicious".
Corruption is everywhere, including in poker platforms. The article you linked has nothing to do with manipulating results. I'm sure it happens, but if you don't pick a shady platform you can be confident it's not going to be an issue. What is an issue is that you're going to lose money because the house takes a cut and poker isn't easy to win at in the first place.
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Re: ESOC Crypto Corner

Post by Gendarme »

I rather have a tendency to not blindly trust shit. Making definitive statements about conspiracies and considering their possibility is quite different; not considering conspiracies when there are huge motives is plain naïveté I'd say. Humans are generaly not honorable, and even less so in groups; why would you trust that corruption does not exist if not provided with evidence? Believing corruption exists is again very different from acknowledging the significant possibility of its existence—I do not think PokerStars manipulates the hands if it wasn't obvious already. It is also not about me losing money, because I never played poker online with significant amounts of money—but I have been experiencing extreme luck when I am new to a poker site or when I come back from a long period of inactivity that was quickly followed with extreme misfortune, which after enough incidents plants a seed of suspicion.
Pay more attention to detail.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: ESOC Crypto Corner

Post by Goodspeed »

Coincidence. If there was a pattern there it would've long been exposed. Consider how easy it is to verify...
I rather have a tendency to not blindly trust shit.
I think you go further than that. I think anyone who believes for a second that there is a Zionist conspiracy going on is delusional. That is but my opinion, but I'm still going to make fun :chinese:
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Re: ESOC Crypto Corner

Post by Snuden »

Gendarme wrote:... but I have been experiencing extreme luck when I am new to a poker site or when I come back from a long period of inactivity that was quickly followed with extreme misfortune, which after enough incidents plants a seed of suspicion.

xD

I have experienced that on dating sites :blush:
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Sweden Gendarme
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Re: ESOC Crypto Corner

Post by Gendarme »

It obviously exists on many sites; it is quite a normal thing to manipulate user experience (vide Facebook), but when it comes to gambling it is quite a bit more detrimental.
Pay more attention to detail.

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