Trumps Shout-Out to Norway

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United States of America TheInvincibleJannisary
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Re: Trumps Shout-Out to Norway

Post by TheInvincibleJannisary »

Jam wrote:
TheInvincibleJannisary wrote:
Show hidden quotes

You are absolutely correct and I was wrong.
We'll never get this thread to 10 pages with that attitude!

haha I thought saying that would be funny because who the fuck agrees someone is right and they are wrong? lmao... Why I think every political debate is a waste of time
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Re: Trumps Shout-Out to Norway

Post by milku3459 »

gibson wrote:
Dolan wrote:OK, so what is wrong with a country that exercises its right to refuse to get more migrants from particular undeveloped countries?

Especially if they don't have any special qualifications that would make them valuable to the host economy.


Why should anyone ever help anyone at all if the person helping isn't directly benefited? I guess you think charities are stupid as well since they don't gain anything from helping the underprivileged.


Because the United States of America is unfortunately not a charity and must look out for the interests of its citizens. Having more easily-integratable people immigrate would do that.
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Re: Trumps Shout-Out to Norway

Post by gibson »

Dolan wrote:
gibson wrote:Why should anyone ever help anyone at all if the person helping isn't directly benefited? I guess you think charities are stupid as well since they don't gain anything from helping the underprivileged.

Well Haitians were helped in the wake of the disaster that hit their island, but it's been like 8 years since then. At some point, they have to take their fate in their own hands and work towards improving their country, so that people wouldn't have to leave to live a decent life.

Is every poor or unfortunate person on this planet born with a right to live in the USA or another developed country? I wasn't born in a developed country, but I don't feel like the US or the West owes me a good life.

What would happen if billions of people living in undeveloped countries migrated all to developed countries? Would such a "solution" even be practical? Could the USA accommodate a few billions of people from poorer countries?
Oh yea I forgot countries are only underdeveloped because their people are lazy and don't work towards improving their counties. Thats literally one of the dumbest things I've ever heard in my entire life. You can work as hard as you want to but you aren't gonna turn a 3rd world country with a corrupt government into a 1st world country. The fact that you live in Romania and are comparing yourself to people in Haiti is just insane. Where do you see anywhere people saying that Western people owe people in 3rd world countries anything? It's called basic humanitarianism. Where do you see people saying that entire 3rd world countries should be uprooted and moved? Obviously the best solution is for people to have better lives in their own countries, unfortunately however this is not always possible. You're delusional dude.

milku3459 wrote:
gibson wrote:
Dolan wrote:OK, so what is wrong with a country that exercises its right to refuse to get more migrants from particular undeveloped countries?

Especially if they don't have any special qualifications that would make them valuable to the host economy.


Why should anyone ever help anyone at all if the person helping isn't directly benefited? I guess you think charities are stupid as well since they don't gain anything from helping the underprivileged.


Because the United States of America is unfortunately not a charity and must look out for the interests of its citizens. Having more easily-integratable people immigrate would do that.

Lol thats ironic coming from someone who almost certainly thinks that the United States should expand its military presense/power, military bases in Germany,multi-billion dollar deals to friends of senators for planes that will never even fly, and constant drone bomdings are really are helping US citizens. . You don't even live in the US, if you did you would realize that most people have no problem with a minuscule percentage of their tax dollars going towards providing aid to underdeveloped countries. Its amazing how many people here don't agree with helping out those that are less fortunate. But no you're too nationalistic, the only people we should help are the people of similar race to us who live within the same imaginary lines as us. Jesus Christ.
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Re: Trumps Shout-Out to Norway

Post by TheInvincibleJannisary »

I would not mind paying more in taxes is my money went towards people in desperate need. Could I ever trust the government to divert the money they take from me to further the interest of people who are suffering and can barely feed themselves 900 calories a day? Hell no the government wants to further their own interest and not the people's interests so we North Americans have to be judged by this corrupt rich government.
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Re: Trumps Shout-Out to Norway

Post by lejend »

gibson wrote:most people have no problem with a minuscule percentage of their tax dollars going towards providing aid to underdeveloped countries. Its amazing how many people here don't agree with helping out those that are less fortunate.


But this isn't aid. For what it costs to help one third-worlder in a developed country, you could help 10 in their home countries. I mean I'm not saying they should be kicked out, but if your goal is to help as many people as possible, an open borders immigration policy is extremely cost inefficient.
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Re: Trumps Shout-Out to Norway

Post by Dolan »

n0el wrote:
Dolan wrote:OK, so what is wrong with a country that exercises its right to refuse to get more migrants from particular undeveloped countries?

Especially if they don't have any special qualifications that would make them valuable to the host economy.


Why don't you worry about your culture and let us worry about who comes to our isolated peninsula? :biggrin:

I don't have any worry about the US of A. But I do have some opinions on immigration, in general. That's why I'm arguing in this thread.
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Re: Trumps Shout-Out to Norway

Post by Dolan »

Jam wrote:The president doesn't have the right to implement any policy he wants though, it's still subject to approval and to the rule of law. Just because people voted for him does not mean that everything he comes up with for the next 4 years is the will of US citizens unless they predicted the future.

That's how political legitimacy works right now, one guy/gal is voted in and it's within their remit to propose whatever policies they see fit. Not even sure what we are disagreeing on or debating here, if anything. Trump's choice of words?
I didn't say that due process isn't being followed so I don't know what your point is here. You're saying that if you vote for a politician you should then put your head down and accept everything they do for the next few years? If there is enough public pressure the government might change course, they don't legally have to, but it's an important part of democracy.

No, I agree with you. What we probably still disagree on started with this statement you made:
Reasonable people don't expect the USA to accept anyone and everyone who applies for immigration, just that the process is fair and rational. Saying that immigrants shouldn't be accepted from Africa because it's a "shithole" is neither, and is not just an insult to the many Africans who are good people, but to US citizens who immigrated from Africa and their children.

Then I argued that very often countries can have arbitrary reasons why they reject immigration from certain countries and that's perfectly fine, it's part of their sovereign right to decide on whom they want in the country and whom they want out. I think there's too much melodrama about the reasons behind such decisions. As someone who is not a US citizen, you (generically speaking) don't have any right to claim a particular treatment from the USA, as long as it's all according to international law. Sure, as a country, you're required to accept refugees, when they are in clear danger in their native country due to military conflicts or natural catastrophes, but that's not the case with most immigrants.

Requiring a visa or other form of security check to visit or immigrate to the USA is not offensive and isn't the issue with Trump's comments.

I think it is related, because while Romanians are required to get a visa in order to travel or to win the visa lottery if they want to immigrate to the US, people who are pro-immigration expect that immigrants from "shithole" countries (as Trump called them) would be simply accepted as US refugees and integrated as citizens without any requirement. Or at least, that's my impression, because nobody seems interested in putting down a detailed argument on how exactly this should happen.
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Re: Trumps Shout-Out to Norway

Post by Dolan »

gibson wrote:Oh yea I forgot countries are only underdeveloped because their people are lazy and don't work towards improving their counties. Thats literally one of the dumbest things I've ever heard in my entire life. You can work as hard as you want to but you aren't gonna turn a 3rd world country with a corrupt government into a 1st world country. The fact that you live in Romania and are comparing yourself to people in Haiti is just insane. Where do you see anywhere people saying that Western people owe people in 3rd world countries anything? It's called basic humanitarianism. Where do you see people saying that entire 3rd world countries should be uprooted and moved? Obviously the best solution is for people to have better lives in their own countries, unfortunately however this is not always possible. You're delusional dude.

What is called basic humanitarianism? Doing what exactly? Accepting every guy from a developing/undeveloped country as a citizen just because their country is poor? How many are you prepared to take in, if you agree with this principle? 1 billion, 2? How pragmatic do you think your humanitarianism is? What's the plan after taking in those immigrants? How do you plan on integrating the huge number of people from these countries?
You're delusional dude.

Obviously, I'm the delusional guy, for asking for a detailed plan on how this would be done.
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Re: Trumps Shout-Out to Norway

Post by egg »

umeu wrote:
oats13 wrote:No, just no. You are projecting. He is not talking about people you lot are just deluded, im out.


don't let the door hit you on the way out. I might also suggest a reading course. Clearly, he said: Why do PEOPLE come here... if Trump was merely talking about countries, and believes that origin has no effect on people, then why would he mention the countries in the first fucking place? OR alternatively, if he was only talking about countries as international entities, why mention it's people?

Because the shitty country has failed the people with it's shitty education system
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Re: Trumps Shout-Out to Norway

Post by tedere12 »

you shouldn't be talking about shitty countries
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Re: Trumps Shout-Out to Norway

Post by gibson »

Dolan wrote:
gibson wrote:Oh yea I forgot countries are only underdeveloped because their people are lazy and don't work towards improving their counties. Thats literally one of the dumbest things I've ever heard in my entire life. You can work as hard as you want to but you aren't gonna turn a 3rd world country with a corrupt government into a 1st world country. The fact that you live in Romania and are comparing yourself to people in Haiti is just insane. Where do you see anywhere people saying that Western people owe people in 3rd world countries anything? It's called basic humanitarianism. Where do you see people saying that entire 3rd world countries should be uprooted and moved? Obviously the best solution is for people to have better lives in their own countries, unfortunately however this is not always possible. You're delusional dude.

What is called basic humanitarianism? Doing what exactly? Accepting every guy from a developing/undeveloped country as a citizen just because their country is poor? How many are you prepared to take in, if you agree with this principle? 1 billion, 2? How pragmatic do you think your humanitarianism is? What's the plan after taking in those immigrants? How do you plan on integrating the huge number of people from these countries?
You're delusional dude.

Obviously, I'm the delusional guy, for asking for a detailed plan on how this would be done.
No you're delusional because literally nowhere do I ever say anything about actual immigration, im talking about aid in general which is drastically different. You're delusional because you're seeing things in my posts that just don't exist.
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Re: Trumps Shout-Out to Norway

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gibson 2020
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Re: Trumps Shout-Out to Norway

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Re: Trumps Shout-Out to Norway

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Let's hope you wont be asked about Cyprus! It's not on the map. :mad:
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Re: Trumps Shout-Out to Norway

Post by Dolan »

gibson wrote:No you're delusional because literally nowhere do I ever say anything about actual immigration, im talking about aid in general which is drastically different. You're delusional because you're seeing things in my posts that just don't exist.

That's not what "delusional" means, unless you're implying your posts are literally objective reality. Case in which there's nothing to debate.
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Re: Trumps Shout-Out to Norway

Post by Dolan »

gibson wrote:Obviously the best solution is for people to have better lives in their own countries, unfortunately however this is not always possible.

This actually implies they should immigrate. Did you read what you wrote?
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Re: Trumps Shout-Out to Norway

Post by gibson »

Dolan wrote:
gibson wrote:Obviously the best solution is for people to have better lives in their own countries, unfortunately however this is not always possible.

This actually implies they should immigrate. Did you read what you wrote?

No you literally just lack reading comprehension. In all of your posts you talk about billions of people immigrating because I implied one time that immigration is sometimes the best option for people (which isn't even debatable)? You just feel the need so strongly to defend your outdated nationalistic worldview you see challenges to it everywhere, even where they don't exist. It's funny trying to argue with people who literally don't want humanity overall to do better.
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Re: Trumps Shout-Out to Norway

Post by deleted_user0 »

umeu wrote:
Dolan wrote:
umeu wrote:that's actually very problematic. It's not that problematic to refuse migrants from any country if they don't have special qualifications. But to accept them from one country, but not another, that's something else.

But isn't it up to every country to draft their migration policies? They can decide which people from which country to reject, based on a set of criteria, like:
- we don't take people from country X because they hosted terrorist cells and we can't verify them all
- people from country Y come from an area plagued by a tropical disease that may go undetected, while dormant
- citizens of country Z increase the rate of crime, as it's been shown in the past


it's up to them, doesn't mean it's not problematic, or that it shouldn't be condemned? and if you believe people should be judged as individuals, and not s members of a group, that kind of policy is deeply problematic. for example, romanians actually have the reputation in europe that they are often involved with petty crimes, what if countries such as belgium based their policy on that, then a person like you (who i assume isn't involved with such things) couldnt have lived and worked in belgium. does that seem fair to you?

:?:
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Re: Trumps Shout-Out to Norway

Post by spanky4ever »

USA are populated with with ppl who fled from shitholes in Europa, including Mr Trumps grandfather who immigrated from a poor village in Germany. Norway was also a shithole back in the days, and a lot of Norwegians moved to USA, in hope for a better life. Norway is now a functioning sosial democracy - and everybody profits from that, both rich and poor.
Ever wonder why the 3. world countries are "shotholes" as so nicely put by mr Trump? Ever heard about the exploits of American and European contries, and there big buissnesses?? Ever herd of leagally elected government, being overturned with the help of Western countries like USA, United Kingdom, France, Belgum? If you have not, I would say your "knowlegde" is historly-less, and pretty misleading.

Btw, - a little off topic, I felt the urge to add this little video about where in the world it is easiest to get rich! Watch and learn something, if you like, or stay forever ignorent about this interesting question :lol:
phpBB [video]
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Re: Trumps Shout-Out to Norway

Post by lejend »

iwillspankyou wrote:Ever wonder why the 3. world countries are "shotholes" as so nicely put by mr Trump? Ever heard about the exploits of American and European contries, and there big buissnesses?? Ever herd of leagally elected government, being overturned with the help of Western countries like USA, United Kingdom, France, Belgum?


It's always someone else's fault, isn't it? "If it wasn't for 'the other', we'd be kings now! Nothing's ever our fault." Now all that remains is the solution, always predictable: "take from others and give to me."

To quote dear Umeo, "so ressentimental."
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Re: Trumps Shout-Out to Norway

Post by Snuden »

Good video by Spanky there! (assuming the numbers are true)
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Re: Trumps Shout-Out to Norway

Post by Snuden »

Snuden wrote:Good video by Spanky there! (assuming the numbers are true)

Read among yourselves, I can't be bothered... I'm busy!

https://www.reddit.com/r/ted/comments/4 ... rld_is_it/
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Re: Trumps Shout-Out to Norway

Post by Dolan »

gibson wrote:No you literally just lack reading comprehension. In all of your posts you talk about billions of people immigrating because I implied one time that immigration is sometimes the best option for people (which isn't even debatable)?

And you're being vague about what are the consequences of what you're proposing. What is it actually that you're proposing? That most of them still be left to live in their home countries or that they should immigrate to developed countries, because
Obviously the best solution is for people to have better lives in their own countries, unfortunately however this is not always possible.

So which one is it, and what is the estimated population that would need to be moved to developed countries to meet realistic targets? What would the impact be, what about benefits? Why don't you stop being vague and just explain what you're proposing, instead of just adopting this moral grandstanding posture?
You just feel the need so strongly to defend your outdated nationalistic worldview you see challenges to it everywhere, even where they don't exist

Where did I ever defend a nationalistic worldview, point me to a post in which I did this. It's a big assumption you're making, possibly because you are assuming that I'm defending Trump, which I'm not. For me Trump is still unfit for the position of POTUS, and that's coming from a guy who has a degree in political science and a bit of political experience (a few years).
My position is strictly about immigration and using immigration as a tool to "fix" both real and imaginary ills, as if moving people in large numbers from one place to another ever fixed anything. It would be dumb for me to support nationalism, when I have first-person experience on how much nationalism can historically retard your country (Romania was pretty much under a National-Communist regime before 1989). On the other hand, this utopian mentality that everything is fixable if we just mix everything into one melting pot and basically destroy any possible cultural difference or status difference is even more dangerous than nationalism. Who would actually willingly want his culture to be completely wiped out and turned into a distraction for tourists or a bunch of cuisine recipes for uprooted "global" citizens? Who would want everyone on the planet to speak one single language and to lose all the linguistic wealth we've accumulated until now? What's the purpose of wanting to mix everything to the point of non-distinctiveness and general mediocrity? It surprises me that people who claim to be Nietzsche readers here even support this, unaware of all the long-term consequences of wanting to decontextualise every possible culture and turn it into a global product, basically turn it into a deprecated "national" fossil.

It's funny trying to argue with people who literally don't want humanity overall to do better.

It's even funnier to argue with people who think in terms of species-level policies. Maybe we should talk about how successful this concept of "human rights" has been in the Middle East, just to gauge how successful such attempts at species-level policies have been.
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Re: Trumps Shout-Out to Norway

Post by TheInvincibleJannisary »

The solution is simple. Stop the negative shit from going down in Syria that keeps the people from their homeland.
I personally would want to go back home to a place where I was familiar with if I was in that situation.
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Re: Trumps Shout-Out to Norway

Post by Lukas_L99 »

TheInvincibleJannisary wrote:The solution is simple. Stop the negative shit from going down in Syria that keeps the people from their homeland.
I personally would want to go back home to a place where I was familiar with if I was in that situation.


Super simple solution indeed

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