Spanking

[fightinfrenchman]

I find spanking to be extremely weird. I'm not sure if I would argue it should be illegal (although the line between simply spanking and physical abuse is pretty blurry) but I would definitely never do it.

[Radix_Lecti]

force authority you're lesser battle respect superiority. pathetic control ideal weakness .

Agogy, Greek word “guiding, eliciting, drawing forth, accompanying, helping, assisting, leading.” Agogy, as a social science, studies how people change; agogical practices provide directions for interventions in helping people

All these words you use have nothing to do with pedagogy--> changing behaviour of young people <21 yrs.
And pseudo-anything backed by 60+ years of peer reviewed science remains true no matter how you deny it.

I'll refer to the Milgram research findings if you want to condone violence by authority figures.

[Gendarme]

Oh God this is worse than I expected.

[supernapoleon]

I can't be the only one thinking sexually when hearing the word spanking?

[Kaiserklein]

@Amsel_ I got your point about last resort. But I still disagree: can you define last resort? Last resort may never happen to parents who have enough natural authority. But what about those who don't? Parents who just struggle to get respected? They will have to resort to spanking on a regular basis, then. Which brings us back to "spanking needed = bad parents confirmed".

Plus, people tend to be lazy, and if you allow them to do something that makes their life easier, they will probably just do it. And the "last resort" thing being a blurry limit, it will be abused.

Finally, I disagree about the reasoning. Kids can understand quite a lot, you just need patience and the right words. Actually, trying hard to discuss with your kid teaches him how to follow logic and reasonings. That's what I'd call education. If you just give up on that point, and resort to spanking instead, the kid will remain unable to follow a reasoning, instead of improving. And when he has kids himself, he might just spank them too.

[fightinfrenchman]

I can't be the only one thinking sexually when hearing the word spanking?

Yeah that's one reason I think it's weird people spank their kids lol

[Kaiserklein]

Eh, you can't always use reasonig and logic with kids. They sometimes just don't listen or simply can't even understand a reasoning.

Again, by giving up on explaining and opting instead for the easy and bad way (spanking), you're not gonna make your kid understand better the next time. As in, you're just not educating him. Plus it's hurting him physically, of course.
And if you can't make him understand your point, there are still other ways to punish him than spanking anyway... Typical example: "no TV/comp for 3 days" and the kid is not only punished, but will also spend his time to do something constructive instead of watching a screen.

And quite frankly coming up with moral teaching every time while ideal it can also be too much of an effort or too time consuming.

Yeah so going for a spank instead is just being lazy and fucking up your kid's education. If it's "too much of an effort" to care about your kid's education and well-being, then don't make kids.

[Amsel_]

@Kaiserklein

1) I would say that most situations can be resolved without spanking. The "last resort" is when it's clear that there's no reasoning, grounding, standing in a corner, etc that will work. At that point you need to speak to every layer of consciousness they have, and associate their bad behavior with unpleasantness. Now this is certainly something unpleasant to talk about, but some humans have a natural propensity towards violence or a low IQ. Reason simply does not work on these people. If anyone doubts this then I encourage you to go use logic to convince every criminal on the planet that what he's doing is wrong. I think it's very important that we recognize that some people like this will exist. By associating pushing, stealing, etc with getting hit then that slight unconscious barrier to misbehavior might be the difference between a functional adult and a prisoner.

2) This is more of an issue of bad parenting rather than an intrinsic flaw in spanking. Also I stated earlier that it's mostly men of lower quality who use violence these days, and these men will likely continue to mistreat their children in many ways, legal or not. Bad parents might yell things at their children which haunt them for years, or they may feed them so much garbage that they become obese. This certainly does not mean that we should criminalize all yelling, or that children should only be allowed to eat government prepared food.

3) I don't see why education and punishment are mutually exclusive.

[Garja]

Spanking is symbolic it is not a at to hurt phisically.
And of course is not the punishment you would adopt for serious stuff.

[Sargsyan]

Spanking is symbolic it is not a at to hurt phisically.
And of course is not the punishment you would adopt for serious stuff.

Did you ever got spanked by a belt ?

[WhatUNeed]

I can't be the only one thinking sexually when hearing the word spanking?

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dp2TQWJRuAk[/youtube]

[deleted_user]

my bet has increased two fold

[tedere12]

I am definitely against spanking and violence against children in any way. My dad would use that method on me and not try to explain to me what I did was incorrect and I think that has caused many issues on the way im forming relations with other males in real life. I think there are many ways of teaching your disciplining your children and making the child feel they did something wrong. I'd say using examples or giving consequences to every action which do not include violence are effective ways I've seen parents use. Of course it's gonna be hard to discipline your children but parenting is not for everybody.

[fungu]

Well, as many people have said, children learn by copying what others do. Simple as that.

If you think you need spanking to "make a point" then I would really think twice if that point is worth making?
I mean kids are always gonna do stuff you don't want them to do. There's no way to avoid that.
What's the worst thing a child could do? In my opinion it would be that he uses violence to get what he wants. Am I gonna spank him to teach him that violence is wrong?

[Kaiserklein]

@Amsel_

1) I doubt there are situations where there is no way other than hitting your kid to make your point. I believe there is always a way, it's just about finding how. Which does take much more time, cleverness and effort than simply spanking. And again, if only punishment will work, it doesn't have to be through violence.
The analogy with criminals is not valid imo. Obviously, it's way harder to convince an adult than a kid. Especially when it just so happens to be your kid. It's also probably too late, when the guy's brain is used to being a criminal. It's like comparing a) explaining to a kid that drugs are bad and b) explaining to a junkie that drugs are bad. Obviously the junkie won't really care.
And if your kid has a low IQ, I don't think hitting him, instead of working on it, will do any good. Again, you can punish in more constructive ways. The method you describe just sounds animal to me, like trying to tame the kid or something.

2) At the end of the day, it will still be an issue if you make spanking legal, so it should be considered.
Bad parents mistreating kids no matter what doesn't mean spanking should be allowed. I mean, rapists raped even if it's illegal. But because it is illegal, people slowly change their mentality about it, and at the end of the day there's less rapes.
So yeah, we won't make yelling on kids illegal, because it's not as hard as spanking, but also because it's impossible to have a limit for yelling. Mistreating as a whole is illegal though, even if it's not easy to define and to spot.

3) I don't see where I said that.

[Kaiserklein]

Spanking is symbolic it is not a at to hurt phisically.
And of course is not the punishment you would adopt for serious stuff.

I think everyone here is talking about spanking as in hurting your kid's butt with your hand. If there is no pain I wouldn't call it spanking.

[Amsel_]

@Kaiserklein

1) I'm not sure why I should agree with you that there is always an alternative to spanking. You might retort that there's no reason you should agree with me saying that spanking can be necessary. But I think that force is a universal language. Some people can't understand the importance of maintenance a high trust society and using that as their reason not to steal; however, anyone can understand the threat of being locked in a cage as a disincentive. Your argument seems to be based on the idea that underdeveloped minds are completely rational, and that all bad behavior can be reasoned out of them.

2) I'm not sure you're supporting the claim I was arguing against.

3) Well you're talking about a scenario where someone spanks their kid instead of trying to educate them. I've already denounced that a few times. But it seems like you're ignoring the possibility of attempting to educate a child, and punishing them if education fails. This entire section seems like it's covered by section 2 actually. It falls more under bad parenting than spanking.

[Frost Bite]

My opinion is , spanking does instill some fear on kids. What my parents did to me is , they dont spank rather ignore me, to the point that i have to ask them for forgiveness.

[Garja]

Spanking is symbolic it is not a at to hurt phisically.
And of course is not the punishment you would adopt for serious stuff.

Did you ever got spanked by a belt ?

Hmm I don't think I have been spanked by a belt. That's pretty hardcore. I've been spanked with a beater tho.

I think everyone here is talking about spanking as in hurting your kid's butt with your hand. If there is no pain I wouldn't call it spanking.

Ye but not pain to the point that you call it violence?!
I mean, did you ever get spanked as a kid? Was it too much? Don't you think it actually was appropriate in some cases?

[QueenOfdestiny]

So after Kaiser talked to me in the car all the time...

Spanking is no solution in any case!
It can make a lot broken in the mind of the child. And i never read any statistics about it but i think in most cases these children will be violent.
They give the "learned" punishment somewhere later to other people. Ther onw children, in the school, to the partner or to random people on the street.
EVERYONE who think its acceptable or ok to do have a lack of empathy.

Why i come to this opinion?
I got spanked as a child from my dad from around 4 until 7 years old. (and yes it hurts)
My parents had very big problems at this point.
When i couldn't sleep and i woke up my parents...
My dad and my mom know violence in their own family.
I dont want to go ins detail but let's say out of more experience in my life i had a lot of problems.

Please dont be violent or in any case hurt someone els! Especially your own children!
Or would you like to make this experience when you get spanked in your childhood?

[Radix_Lecti]

This debate is so dumb...

.
...because you just don't care about scientific results.

Hey David Dunning! Ya waddup Justin Kruger?
Why don't they read our research?
#Trumpland

Xeeleeflower wrote:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... te-is-over

[Kaiserklein]

1) I'm not sure why I should agree with you that there is always an alternative to spanking. You might retort that there's no reason you should agree with me saying that spanking can be necessary. But I think that force is a universal language. Some people can't understand the importance of maintenance a high trust society and using that as their reason not to steal; however, anyone can understand the threat of being locked in a cage as a disincentive. Your argument seems to be based on the idea that underdeveloped minds are completely rational, and that all bad behavior can be reasoned out of them.

The point is we're talking about kids. Kids don't go to jail. Why? Well, because they're kids. Childhood is the most sensitive part of a life, so I just don't see the point of hurting a kid if you can avoid it. And I believe you can.

3) Well you're talking about a scenario where someone spanks their kid instead of trying to educate them. I've already denounced that a few times. But it seems like you're ignoring the possibility of attempting to educate a child, and punishing them if education fails. This entire section seems like it's covered by section 2 actually. It falls more under bad parenting than spanking.

Well, still I never said punishment and education are exclusive. Only spanking. I gave earlier an example of punishment that I think is educative. You can't raise a kid without ever punishing anyway lol, then he will have no limits. It's not even that you would "punish them if education fails", more that punishment is a part of the education. Just like you learn to walk by falling over and over again, you learn your limits by crossing them and then being told not to.
I just think spanking is not a good kind of punishment.

Ye but not pain to the point that you call it violence?!
I mean, did you ever get spanked as a kid? Was it too much? Don't you think it actually was appropriate in some cases?

Nope, I never got spanked. But I know it can hurt a lot. Of course you can just give a couple spanks not too hard and it won't hurt so much I guess. But with a belt or whatever object, or even just a dad hitting hard, I think it would hurt a lot. Also kids just don't resist to pain so much, it's easier to hurt them.

[deleted_user]

lol I had a perfect childhood

[Garja]

I think you're just too paranoid of simple spanking. 99% of kids on earth get spanked.

[pecelot]

It's quite simple. Hitting your kid means failing. It means you were not able to educate him without resorting to violence and pain. It's very unhealthy and despicable.
Think about it: a full-grown person would need to use his physical advantage over a young kid to get respected... instead of using reasoning and logic. How fucked up is that? It's lazy, it's wrong, it's useless. That's what I call bad parents.
It's the same as teachers who need to yell at the kids and give detentions, instead of having a natural authority and charism that gains the respect of the kids. We all had this kind of teacher, and we all know they suck.

Trying to inspire respect and discipline through fear is anyway not the way to go. It will never result in anything constructive, compared to an actual discussion.
Of course, it can happen that parents don't control themselves and actually hurt the kid unintentionally. It still sucks, but it's understandable. Can happen to anyone to lose control temporarily. But doing it on purpose, because it would be "good for the kid" or "life is hard" or whatever bullshit, is just plain stupid.
The line can be hard to draw. I remember my dad once grabbing me and holding me against the wall. It doesn't really hurt, but it's still violence (psychologically more than physically). Should it be allowed or not? Maybe, maybe not. At the end of the day, it won't prevent parents from doing it anyway.

you seem to not have much experience with children, implying your verbal authority is a cancer cure — good luck with that!