Spanking

[benj89]

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I'm aware that some people might think it's good, or what I think is more often the case, they don't think it's good, but feel like they don't know what else to do, only that they need to do something. That's why it's important that education and awareness is raised about these topics, so people know that there are other ways and learn how to apply them even in stressful or difficult situations. And in cases where the parent can't handle the situation alone, that help is provided. The problem to be honest is also in large with the atomic family structure in the west. There is a saying that it takes a village to raise a child, which imo hits deep at the root of the problem in european countries where 2 people, or in some cases even just 1 person are expected to raise one or often even multiple children. it's a miracle that it doesn't go wrong more often than it does.

totally agree and I'm concerned that the single parent phenomenon will only get worse. One issue is that "help", at least in France, potentially means your kids being taken away by social services which is the last thing a single parent would want.

@benj89 have you ever been physically punished? I’m sure if you have you would not have the same view. P.s id rather my child be taken into care than me to use spanking.

Don't be so sure, I received much more than regular spankings and on many occasions but I won’t expend on that part. I was a mess and although not all of it was necessary, it taught me to slightly respect authority at a time that was critical for my future and when small talk didn’t work. I do believe that life would have been much harder on me if I didn’t get those. The beatings that affected me negatively were the ones given for no reason with bad intentions, by a different person.
Although I don’t plan to ever touch my kids later because there are healthier methods and I thought I made it obvious, I won’t judge parents who resort to that as long as the intentions are good and it doesn’t cross a certain line. Life can get complicated to say the least, especially when you don’t really have the time and knowledge to educate your kids in a proper way and end up with undisciplined and uncontrollable boys. My reaction from yesterday comes from the fact I don't have any patience with kids who use the moral high ground regarding subjects they're ignorant about. I'm also probably too sensitive about the subject to discuss it on internet. Anyway, I hope your kids education will go as you planned it.

This is classic confirmation bias - people believing that negative events which occurred to them may not have been negative because "I turned out fine".

The truth is, you likely would be better off had you not been regularly spanked.

This is a classic confirmation bias - people believing that what they interpreted as negative events which occurred to them may not have been positive because "I turned out not fine". You blame spanking for resenting your parents, but it could have been the lack of noticeable good intentions, affection, no talk after the punishment etc, who knows I've no idea. How about turning what could be seen as negative from an outside perspective to something positive considering that event didn't happen?

I think you didn’t get the whole point of my precedent posts: what affected you a certain way could have affected a different human being with different circumstances in a different way. I didn’t wait for you to think about it. The two persons who disciplined me the hard way when I needed it are now some of the closest persons in my life and I’m grateful they did what they considered best because it worked to some extent. Sure it’d have been better to have a proper education from start, but life was such that at 12 I was about to get expelled from middle school with 0 respect to any kind of authority. When I became an adult it took me years to get over what another person did with bad intentions and I’m still working on not wanting to beat the shit out of this guy sometimes. I tried to understand why he did that so I could forgive him and move one because that's what my intuition told me to do and I’m not completely done with that process but I’m on the right path I believe.

Basically your truth, despite what the recent literature talking about physical punishments as a whole says, is different than mine. Like I said several times: life is complex and I do believe that physical punishments and fear coupled with noticeable good intentions can be useful to treat boys that should go back on the right path quickly or they’ll be placed in a children’s home. I guess it’s a case by case thing and obviously shouldn’t be applied to autistic kids like radix mentioned. I’ve only met one person who went to a children’s home and you’re set for failure there. You become surrounded by kids even more unstable than you who had a trashier life, violence/drugs become part of your daily life if it wasn’t already the case, you receive zero affection and kids constantly run away. Then if you’re lucky enough it’s the russian roulette with host families that rotate every year or so. It could be a good thing for people who had it really bad at home, but I have close to no doubt it'd have been bad for me. Home wasn't that bad and I was diagnosed with a heart disease at 13, received treatment and much later surgeries that saved my life. I don't think I would have been diagnosed early enough at a Children's home since barely fainting when you play sport isn't that alarming.
It probably does sound like a fucking Hollywood movie to ignorant kids like gibson. That’s also why I found Vicky’s post scary saying she rather put her child in a children’s home than spanking him, but I’m guessing she doesn’t have one anyway.

@gibson: I try to talk with confidence about topics I have experienced or at least have decent knowledge about, otherwise I’ll potentially give my point of view if I thought about it, but never in an assertive way like you did.
Anyway, I knew from your previous posts that you were narrow-minded and shouldn’t have answered your post in the first place. I’ll blame the don’t post on internet late at night old rule for that one.

[PeachTree]

It should be legal, because government needs to be out of our business. It's almost impossible to enforce anyway. It happens all the time, just off-screen.

[gibson]

This discussion is useless because it's impossible to prove that spanking is always bad. The people that say this are basically presenting a belief as opinion.

I mean it's impossible to prove that anything is always bad. What most people( or at least I) am trying to say is that spanking is almost always an inferior method of punishment. Not inferior in that it doesn't work, but inferior because the method is barbaric and it can often have negative side effects.

@benj89 you're right, I'm the ignorant closed minded one because I place more weight in scientific studies then I do in your anecdotal evidence, and you're intelligent and open minded because you believe that your individual experience trumps science.

[Garja]

Well, when it comes to stuff like this anecdotal evidence is more important than certain studies. In general, I tend not to fully trust studies when it comes to social sciences.

[gibson]

Well, when it comes to stuff like this anecdotal evidence is more important than certain studies. In general, I tend not to fully trust studies when it comes to social sciences.

Yea scientific studies can be complete bullshit, you have to look at how the study actually worked and go from there. Regardless, taking your individual experience and projecting it as truth is bad not only cause its arrogant but also cause you can find 1000 other people who have had an opposite experience to you, so really it proves nothing.

[Garja]

I do think tho, that in the specific case of spanking it is not his personal experience but rather the one expierenced by 90% of population.

[kami_ryu]

-- deleted post --

[Goodspeed]

a belief as opinion.

[benj89]

This discussion is useless because it's impossible to prove that spanking is always bad. The people that say this are basically presenting a belief as opinion.

I mean it's impossible to prove that anything is always bad. What most people( or at least I) am trying to say is that spanking is almost always an inferior method of punishment. Not inferior in that it doesn't work, but inferior because the method is barbaric and it can often have negative side effects.

@benj89 you're right, I'm the ignorant closed minded one because I place more weight in scientific studies then I do in your anecdotal evidence, and you're intelligent and open minded because you believe that your individual experience trumps science.

Don't bullshit me you didn't read any scientific studies on the subject let alone enough to "look at how the study works and go from there". Many studies are completely biased and a google search would show you how many topics dramatically evolved despite scientists/academics forming a consensus about a subject just a few years ago. Actually in the field I studied, it's well known that once a consensus is formed, academics tend to bias their research and many journals refuse to publish innovative ideas, that will later receive the Nobel prizes anyway. Most of my professors completely disregarded academic publications that inspired most textbooks based on their personal experience.

I didn't do any research neither and I don't want to take the time to understand all the variables that would make a good study, but I can at least contribute to the discussion with my experience. You're just sharing your uninformed and inexperienced opinions and I think most people will agree that ideally, you wouldn't have to use physical punishment. However, you could have linked thought provoking studies showing that there are effective short term disciplinary methods besides physical punishments with kids who don't comply with the traditional ones - just a thought. That reminds me I still have to finish reading wicked post on weapons.
Anyway, nuancing isn't your forte, so I'll agree with you like I would with a 8 year old: violence is bad, don't do hard drugs and stay in school

[momuuu]

a belief as opinion.

Oops. Replace opinion with fact.

[Jam]

I like to be spanked, especially when it's unexpected. It makes it more exciting for me. I'm not sure why, but it may come from my childhood. You see, I was spanked with a wooden spoon, the very same wooden spoon that mommy let me lick the icing off of.

[lejend]

-

[benj89]

haha

[gibson]

@benj89 So now you're telling me what I have and haven't done. You know literally nothing about me and yet you resort to passive aggressive insults because youve stereotyped me. And yet I'm somehow the close minded and ignorant one. Surprised to see someone so educated and with such a broad array of life experiences doing that. Rofl

[benj89]

@benj89 So now you're telling me what I have and haven't done. You know literally nothing about me and yet you resort to passive aggressive insults because youve stereotyped me. And yet I'm somehow the close minded and ignorant one. Surprised to see someone so educated and with such a broad array of life experiences doing that. Rofl

I’m not passive aggressive, I clearly think your comments are retarded and that you should think twice before posting on a topic you're ignorant about but I've already said that. I'll give you that I'm aggressive here, I stereotyped you because you sound like one and I'm not being constructive either. I also said don’t bs me first with the scientific studies you didn't read, now with the « you don’t know me » part. But please, feel free to share your experiences or the conclusions to your readings related to the topic if you have any

[gibson]

@benj89 the reason why most of my posts here were low effort was because I expected lejend to respond to them,and it's not worth it to put in effort in a discussion with him ( also I was hoping to trigger him a bit, hence my initial blanket statement). A year or so ago I dated a girl who I thought I might potentially marry, at that point one of the things I did research on was punishment. As I told garja, I realize that just because something is in a scientific study doesn't mean jack shit, you have to look at the method used before you put any stock into it. As others have already said, a large amount research shows there are better forms of punishment then spanking. I grew up in a very conservative household, and was spanked as a child, and it was an effective form of punishment.

However, there are several reasons why it was effective. My parents never spanked me out if emotion, if I did something and they spanked me for it they waited until they called down before they did. Because of that they were never overly violent. I definitely knew I was being spanked, and it stung, but it wasn't super painful and was never even close to causing a bruise. We would also talk about it. They would explain what I did wrong, and that they were doing it because they cared about me. I could always tell it hurt them a little to do it. As I Said, it was effective, I don't resent my parents for it and have 0 lasting issues. However I think most children who are physically punished aren't punished like I was. Maybe if everyone was, I would be okay with it, but from what iv observed and heard on the internet it isn't.

[VooDoo_BoSs]

I'm not sure why you (@benj89) need to resort to personal attacks...

Some research for those here. Please note that all the below are peer-reviewed studies. There are literally, hundreds of these with most showing that spanking has negative life outcomes. At best, some studies will show a non-significant negative impact, but you will never find a single study showing positive life outcomes.

Spanking leads to anti-social behaviour

Conclusions: When parents use corporal punishment to reduce ASB, the long-term effect tends to be the opposite. The findings suggest that if parents replace corporal punishment by nonviolent modes of discipline, it could reduce the risk of ASB among children and reduce the level of violence in American society.Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 1997;151:761-767

Spanking increases childhood aggression

CONCLUSIONS: Despite American Academy of Pediatrics recommendations to the contrary, most parents in the United States approve of and have used CP as a form of child discipline. The current findings suggest that even minor forms of CP, such as spanking, increase risk for increased child aggressive behavior. Importantly, these findings cannot be attributed to possible confounding effects of a host of other maternal parenting risk factors.

Meta-analysis on spanking indicates a range of negative child outcomes including anti-social behaviour, moral internalization, aggression, quality of parent-child relationship, mental health, mental health in adulthood, abuse of child or spouse in adulthood.

Whether spanking is helpful or harmful to children continues to be the source of considerable debate among both researchers and the public. This article addresses 2 persistent issues, namely whether effect sizes for spanking are distinct from those for physical abuse, and whether effect sizes for spanking are robust to study design differences. Meta-analyses focused specifically on spanking were conducted on a total of 111 unique effect sizes representing 160,927 children. Thirteen of 17 mean effect sizes were significantly different from zero and all indicated a link between spanking and increased risk for detrimental child outcomes. Effect sizes did not substantially differ between spanking and physical abuse or by study design characteristics. (PsycINFO Database Record.

Meta-analysis on spanking

Spanking remains a common, if controversial, childrearing practice in the United States. In this article, I pair mounting research indicating that spanking is both ineffective and harmful with professional and human rights opinions disavowing the practice. I conclude that spanking is a form of violence against children that should no longer be a part of American childrearing.

A lack of spanking increases IQ

which showed that less spanking is associated with faster cognitive development suggest that the trend away from corporal punishment may be one of a number of social changes (especially, better educated par- ents) that explain the increase in IQ scores

[Radix_Lecti]

Plz science dun work on heathens, we need brother lejend to ritually voodoo them in Latin.

Do any of u know what u shud do if a child attacks u?

The answer is not spanking.

[momuuu]

Keywords in that research: increase chances

[VooDoo_BoSs]

Keywords in that research: increase chances

... It's a casual, statistically significant relationship. I don't even understand what your point is.

[Goodspeed]

Keywords in that research: increase chances

Similarly, getting shot increases chances you'll die within a day.

[momuuu]

Keywords in that research: increase chances

Lol aren't you studying to be a scientist?

I actually thinking doing "science" in these fields is literally a waste of time.

You can set up a similair research to view if going to church was good or bad for kids and then try to prove that being religious is bad for the future of a child. That'd be quite a retarded thing to conclude, wouldn't it?

[Goodspeed]

If there was a significant causal relationship between being religious and decreased mental health or negative behaviours like violence, then yeah you could conclude that. I don't see how that would be "retarded".

[momuuu]

If there was a significant causal relationship between being religious and decreased mental health or negative behaviours like violence, then yeah you could conclude that. I don't see how that would be "retarded".

Because it's just a significant correlation, not a causal relationship. Setting aside that such a research would have to subjectively define succesful, it might also fail to take into account the statistical differences between religious and nonreligious groups. And then in the end, we're unable to say anything about individual cases. Maybe some kid would've lost himself in the criminal world were it not for his religion. And maybe another kid was raped by some priest and scarred for life.

And that's the point. First of all, how do these researches about spanking even define succes? Do they take into account that there could be significant differences between parents who do spank and parents who don't spank beyond the spanking. For example, it could be that the parents that do not spank are on average just better parents and thus never even consider spanking their kids because the methods they use are already completely adequate, while spanking parents are on average worse parents and then resort to spanking. Maybe if those parents wouldn't spank, the result would on average be even worse. Then we're explaining this correlation as spanking is good.

It is borderline impossible to even determine a causal relationship between spanking and not spanking with regards to how good it is for a child. It is possible to determine a correlation, but a correlation is a causation. And even then, in many cases there probably is a causation, I wouldn't even try to deny that. I'd argue there are plenty of cases where spanking has a net positive effect on a child too though, and I'm confused by people somehow not even considering this a possibility.

That's why I think these sciences are silly. To defend what I'm studying: Physics is at its core just mapping all correlations. If we mapped all correlated quantities then physicists would be pretty content (although at heart, many would like to explain how things work too).

[VooDoo_BoSs]

If there was a significant causal relationship between being religious and decreased mental health or negative behaviours like violence, then yeah you could conclude that. I don't see how that would be "retarded".

Because it's just a significant correlation, not a causal relationship. Setting aside that such a research would have to subjectively define succesful, it might also fail to take into account the statistical differences between religious and nonreligious groups. And then in the end, we're unable to say anything about individual cases. Maybe some kid would've lost himself in the criminal world were it not for his religion. And maybe another kid was raped by some priest and scarred for life.

And that's the point. First of all, how do these researches about spanking even define succes? Do they take into account that there could be significant differences between parents who do spank and parents who don't spank beyond the spanking. For example, it could be that the parents that do not spank are on average just better parents and thus never even consider spanking their kids because the methods they use are already completely adequate, while spanking parents are on average worse parents and then resort to spanking. Maybe if those parents wouldn't spank, the result would on average be even worse. Then we're explaining this correlation as spanking is good.

It is borderline impossible to even determine a causal relationship between spanking and not spanking with regards to how good it is for a child. It is possible to determine a correlation, but a correlation is a causation.

That's why I think these sciences are silly. To defend what I'm studying: Physics is at its core just mapping all correlations. If we mapped all correlated quantities then physicists would be pretty content (although at heart, many would like to explain how things work too).

You haven't read any of the studies, have you?

The whole point of the significant, casual relationship is that they control for other factors including socioeconomic status, education, etc. That is the point of scientific studies, they control for confounding factors.

Seriously, science is a real thing. Statistics are real. Please go read the studies and you can see how the researchers control for the exact issues you discuss.

The whole point of peer-reviewed research is that, before publication, a group of peers / researchers will review the work and ask the exact questions you are asking.