casus: presentation breakdown

[deleted_user0]

@Radix_Lecti

I have a casus for you.

I have a kid in my class, about 9 years old, nearly 10 I think. He's always very enthusiastic when it comes to doing tasks, generally the first to finish, and always looking to do extra tasks. He's also very eager to answer questions, sometimes too eager, talking through other children's turns. He sometimes has no idea what to do with all his energy and starts to walk around class, generally because he's finished the first task, and then the second task, so on, before most children have finished the first. All in all, he's a very strong student. But when it comes to doing presentations, he has a complete nervous breakdown, even before he actually has to do it. From the moment he starts to reaslise that the stuff were doing in class is leading up to a presentation, he will refuse to do the tasks, and the closer we get the presentations, the more quiet he becomes, to the point where he will huddle on the floor next to his chair or under his table, sobbing all the time. He won't get in front of his classmates, even when he doesn't have to say anything. And when we tried to get him to present for just myself and the teaching assistant, in an empty classroom on another day, he wouldn't get any further then just standing silently in front of the board, refusing to say anything. He says he's too shy and afraid to do it. I think it's the worst case of stage fright I have seen so far.

How would you motivate this student to overcome this hurdle?

Background, I teach him English for 2 lessons a week, on 2 consecutive days, for 2 hours per lesson. Whenever I test his speaking ability 1 on 1, he's not shy or quiet at all, and he's in fact very talkative. The class has 9 students, and he's not bullied in this class or anything like that, as far as I am aware of. I'm not sure what his situation is in his actual school. I haven't gotten around to talk to him about that yet. As he wouldn't talk to me anymore after the presentations.

[japanesegeneral]

I see a fairly interesting tv format in this kind of post. The super(vising) teacher starring Radix_Lecti could be a format i would like to watch.

[dietschlander]

^same!

Here in Dietschland we have a tv show called DreamSchool.
There a small group of problematic youth 16-20 yrs old receive a special treatment which they need.
Respect is given by the teaching team and demanded as well.

When a problem occured last time, the teacher asked the student "is there anything I can do or provide to you in order you to be able to succeed".
Perhaps your student emeu, could be asked such question? And go from there...

[deleted_user0]

^same!

Here in Dietschland we have a tv show called DreamSchool.
There a small group of problematic youth 16-20 yrs old receive a special treatment which they need.
Respect is given by the teaching team and demanded as well.

When a problem occured last time, the teacher asked the student "is there anything I can do or provide to you in order you to be able to succeed".
Perhaps your student emeu, could be asked such question? And go from there...

i know dreamschool, but the problem here is mainly I'm dealing with 1) a student that's too young to see he has a "problem", he's just scared. 2) doesn't have the mental tools/language to express his needs to deal with the problem and 3) I can only speak to him about this issue through a 3rd person, so I all nuance will be lost in translation. When asked why he doesn't want to do it, he just says he's scared, and not much more will come out of him. I think before I can ask him how we can help him overcome his fear, he must tell us why or what he's afraid of in the first place.

[dietschlander]

I'd like to make a dog comparission.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoL0KeJXNCo

NOT entering/touching the water was NOT an option, the dog got that...

Back to your student. NOT taking any steps is NOT an option.

And when we tried to get him to present for just myself and the teaching assistant, in an empty classroom on another day, he wouldn't get any further then just standing silently in front of the board, refusing to say anything.

If the kid was that dog I think I'm supposed to reward him with the step of being already in the danger zone of the whiteboard?

How old is the little fellow?

[yemshi]

errr...

[Radix_Lecti]

Hi colleague!

I have little experience (6 months) with Elementary level, but can draw upon Piaget and Erikson to say at least something. @WickedCossack

Student (st) seems to be more advanced than the rest and eager to follow in the Expert-st task relation. However presentation tasks are met with avoidance and fear/anger. It is not helpful to talk to very young st about tasks if their emotions block them (Erikson), instead these feelings have to be diverted away with different tasks through which the social-emotional bond between you and st. can be preserved (Piaget). He is avoiding you probably because he cannot comply with your task instruction (fear/shame/love/hate).

Assuming that presentations at such a young age are not graded at his school I would first clearly tell him that other students do it but that he doesn't have to. I would repeat that several times first. Afaik and remember, young sts need a lot of reaffirmation first to overcome strong emotional responses. Also add that it is normal to feel stressed about things and that you still like him and think he's a great st and indicate specific examples of behaviours which you thought were good/helpful to you as the teacher/Expert. Then I would say that he has to create a wonderful poster/ powerpoint or video instead in which he makes his ideas visible but without having to present it. It is not your job to treat any traumatic anxieties he has, so it would be perfectly all right to have him participate in such a task by doing alternative assignments. How the other children would react I dunno...I'd actually let all the sts create a video and add that together into a 6 o'clock news format. (And would have him create the youtube channel.)

In short:
-Tell him you understand.
-Give new task through which you can provide positive reinforcement.
-Maintain the teacher-student relation.


Also consider teaching him TBA* English: https://www.pearsonelt.com/sample/cutting-edge.html

I looked at the starter book and saw a good example of a TBA exercise on pg 37.

*Task Based Approach

@deleted_user

[Radix_Lecti]

Maybe helpful to read stage 3-4 and to also read about sirmusket's identity confusion
http://ww3.haverford.edu/psychology/dda ... ges.2.html

Stage 3 - Initiative vs. Guilt
Initiative adds to autonomy the quality of undertaking, planning, and attacking a task for the sake of being active and on the move.
The child feels guilt over the goals contemplated and the acts initiated in exuberant enjoyment of new locomoter and mental powers.
The castration complex occuring in this stage is due to the child's erotic fantasies.
A residual conflict over initiative may be expressed as hysterical denial, which may cause the repression of the wish or the abrogation of the child's ego: paralysis and inhibition, or overcompensation and showing off.
The Oedipal stage results not only in oppressive establishment of a moral sense restricting the horizon of the permissible, but also sets the direction towards the possible and the tangible which permits dreams of early childhood to be attached to goals of an active adult life.
After Stage 3, one may use the whole repertoire of previous modalities, modes, and zones for industrious, identity-maintaining, intimate, legacy-producing, despair-countering purposes.

Stage 4 - Industry vs. Inferiority
To bring a productive situation to completion is an aim which gradually supercedes the whims and wishes of play.
The fundamentals of technology are developed
To lose the hope of such "industrious" association may pull the child back to the more isolated, less conscious familial rivalry of the Oedipal time
The child can become a conformist and thoughtless slave whom others exploit.

Stage 5 - Identity vs. Role Confusion (or "Diffusion")
The adolescent is newly concerned with how they appear to others.
Ego identity is the accrued confidence that the inner sameness and continuity prepared in the past are matched by the sameness and continuity of one's meaning for others, as evidenced in the promise of a career.
The inability to settle on a school or occupational identity is disturbing.

[Radix_Lecti]

he must tell us why or what he's afraid of in the first place.

A very forceful person in authority that told him to do things in a very specific way, which he then did but still failed at it in some way and was then told he was to blame or responsible for that person in authority to fail.

@lejend

[deleted_user0]

Hi colleague!

I have little experience (6 months) with Elementary level, but can draw upon Piaget and Erikson to say at least something. @WickedCossack

Student (st) seems to be more advanced than the rest and eager to follow in the Expert-st task relation. However presentation tasks are met with avoidance and fear/anger. It is not helpful to talk to very young st about tasks if their emotions block them (Erikson), instead these feelings have to be diverted away with different tasks through which the social-emotional bond between you and st. can be preserved (Piaget). He is avoiding you probably because he cannot comply with your task instruction (fear/shame/love/hate).

Assuming that presentations at such a young age are not graded at his school I would first clearly tell him that other students do it but that he doesn't have to. I would repeat that several times first. Afaik and remember, young sts need a lot of reaffirmation first to overcome strong emotional responses. Also add that it is normal to feel stressed about things and that you still like him and think he's a great st and indicate specific examples of behaviours which you thought were good/helpful to you as the teacher/Expert. Then I would say that he has to create a wonderful poster/ powerpoint or video instead in which he makes his ideas visible but without having to present it. It is not your job to treat any traumatic anxieties he has, so it would be perfectly all right to have him participate in such a task by doing alternative assignments. How the other children would react I dunno...I'd actually let all the sts create a video and add that together into a 6 o'clock news format. (And would have him create the youtube channel.)

In short:
-Tell him you understand.
-Give new task through which you can provide positive reinforcement.
-Maintain the teacher-student relation.


Also consider teaching him TBA* English: https://www.pearsonelt.com/sample/cutting-edge.html

I looked at the starter book and saw a good example of a TBA exercise on pg 37.

*Task Based Approach

@deleted_user

The presentations are actually part of the PBL (project based learning) approach of the school I work at. So it's pretty similar to task based, except the task stretches over multiple lessons. This first presentation was just basically introducing a classmate to the rest of the class. 15 seconds at most.

It's indeed possible, perhaps even probable, that he has been forced to stand in front of a class before to recite something he couldn't remember for whatever reason and since then hates that feeling and anything connected to it. Perhaps its something else. I'm in the dark here.

Problem is that presenting is a big part of the curriculum, they have 4 projects, which means 4 presentations. Of course I can't force him to do it, but I hope that by project 4 we will have made some progress. I have told him all these things you said, that it's ok to be afraid, I have also complimented him on getting up and standing in front of at least myself and the TA. Maybe those things will show their effect later on. I have also told him he didn't need to present at the moment, I would be happy if he would just do the tasks relating to the project, but by then he was already beyond my reach, and I couldn't really connect with him. Next time I will make it clear from the start, and I will make sure I have something else for him to do that's not connected to the presentation. But eventually he's going to have to start doing it, or he won't really be able to continue with our curriculum, as the amount of projects and presentations are only going to increase. In that case he might be better of in a school with a more traditional approach.

As for oedipus, I'm not really familiar with a lot of child psychology, but I do know I have a great dislike for anything written or inspired by Freud.

[Radix_Lecti]

I have told him all these things you said, that it's ok to be afraid, I have also complimented him on getting up and standing in front of at least myself and the TA.

In that case he might be better of in a school with a more traditional approach.

As for oedipus,

To say: its ok to be afraid transfers badly as a message to a child in panic, it reinforces the message that it is ok to feel this way and/or that you agree with- or at cause of that situation. The message should be I like/love you I understand. Without ever mentioning the words 'scared/afraid, it's ok'.

Complimenting on things that are connected to his anxiety only reinforces that message issued once by that person in authority which created this mistrust/failure/incompetence. You present yourself as a person that can't be trusted by complimenting him for doing parts of the presentation (which you forced him to do).
His message is: "Why do you hurt me?" and your answer is: "I think you endured the pain well and I want more."

If you want to help him you could do some regressive therapy but once again: that is not the task of a teacher and it would be better if a therapist or a pedagogue/pedagogist (adjusting child behaviour) would do that, presentations should also fall into the realm of orthopedagogy. I have a degree in Social pedagogy, so I could help you with some insights but for therapy you need to be able to communicate well in the L1 of the child and you need at least a few weeks for 1-hour sessions. If you want to know what is wrong with him, the comment above is what I think has happened, probably an overzealous mother forcing him to do some stupid recital and getting really mad at him that he didn't do his bit correctly or something like that. I can feed you some standard questions but the primary Erikson technique is to basically never give the client any information and just repeating and or clarifying what the client has said to you.

The first tip I can give you is that you have to discuss with the relevant people whether it is possible for him to submit his presentation assignments on video. Create a short video of yourself or a fellow student as an example and show him how to do it. Don't offer it as a maybe but as the only option. @dietschlander was partly right in that.

Secondly you can use Erikson to understand that the anxiety brings forth a regression to younger years in which he still acts completely unaware of his own actions and mechanisms. This is similar as to sirmusket's behaviour. So it does not have much to do with the Oedipus cycle it merely states that 'normally' we go through these cycles but 'abnormal' behaviour is related to certain processes in life we should go through. What is relevant to understand of that part is that he is unable to become "industrious" to perform the task and as such feels highly "inferior", but because he experiences this anxiety completely subconsciously he is unable to see the triggers for his defence mechanisms (huddling on the floor- avoiding the person in authority). I know that in older clients psychologists recommend a regressive therapy approach in which they relive the experience step by step with analysis and realisation of feelings and fears but I am not so certain that you can do that with a young child that has regressed to 4-5-year-old behaviours (Trust-Mistrust).

In short:
Communicate your message to mean what you want: you can trust me- I will help you- you do not have to do a presentation

If your school features it in its programme then I wonder why? It is not a skill that is needed until much later, 14-18 years. So confer with your colleagues about the applicability and validity of such formative testing at age 10. In other words, we as teachers can create the most beautiful lessonplans, but sometimes we should also allow for different outcomes and products in light of changes or demands of the teaching environment. It is a good lessonplan, but you need some adaptations for this student.

[deleted_user0]

I have told him all these things you said, that it's ok to be afraid, I have also complimented him on getting up and standing in front of at least myself and the TA.

In that case he might be better of in a school with a more traditional approach.

As for oedipus,

To say: its ok to be afraid transfers badly as a message to a child in panic, it reinforces the message that it is ok to feel this way and/or that you agree with- or at cause of that situation. The message should be I like/love you I understand. Without ever mentioning the words 'scared/afraid, it's ok'.

Complimenting on things that are connected to his anxiety only reinforces that message issued once by that person in authority which created this mistrust/failure/incompetence. You present yourself as a person that can't be trusted by complimenting him for doing parts of the presentation (which you forced him to do).
His message is: "Why do you hurt me?" and your answer is: "I think you endured the pain well and I want more."

If you want to help him you could do some regressive therapy but once again: that is not the task of a teacher and it would be better if a therapist or a pedagogue/pedagogist (adjusting child behaviour) would do that, presentations should also fall into the realm of orthopedagogy. I have a degree in Social pedagogy, so I could help you with some insights but for therapy you need to be able to communicate well in the L1 of the child and you need at least a few weeks for 1-hour sessions. If you want to know what is wrong with him, the comment above is what I think has happened, probably an overzealous mother forcing him to do some stupid recital and getting really mad at him that he didn't do his bit correctly or something like that. I can feed you some standard questions but the primary Erikson technique is to basically never give the client any information and just repeating and or clarifying what the client has said to you.

The first tip I can give you is that you have to discuss with the relevant people whether it is possible for him to submit his presentation assignments on video. Create a short video of yourself or a fellow student as an example and show him how to do it. Don't offer it as a maybe but as the only option. @dietschlander was partly right in that.

Secondly you can use Erikson to understand that the anxiety brings forth a regression to younger years in which he still acts completely unaware of his own actions and mechanisms. This is similar as to sirmusket's behaviour. So it does not have much to do with the Oedipus cycle it merely states that 'normally' we go through these cycles but 'abnormal' behaviour is related to certain processes in life we should go through. What is relevant to understand of that part is that he is unable to become "industrious" to perform the task and as such feels highly "inferior", but because he experiences this anxiety completely subconsciously he is unable to see the triggers for his defence mechanisms. I know that in older clients psychologists recommend a regressive therapy approach in which they relive the experience step by step with analysis and realisation of feelings and fears but I am not so certain that you can do that with a young child that has regressed to 4-5-year-old behaviours (Trust-Mistrust).

In short:
Communicate your message to mean what you want: you can trust me- I will help you- you do not have to do a presentation

If your school features it in its programme then I wonder why? It is not a skill that is needed until much later, 14-18 years. So confer with your colleagues about the applicability and validity of such formative testing at age 10. In other words, we as teachers can create the most beautiful lessonplans, but sometimes we should also allow for different outcomes and products in light of changes or demands of the teaching environment. It is a good lessonplan, but you need some adaptations to it for this student. Sounds to me a bit like Jena plan schools.

It starts at J3 level, which is like around 11 yo students. He's a bit younger. But not much. I call them presentations but they don't really require any analytical skills like university presentations would require. Neither are they tests of ability, they're more intended to develop the skill through practice rather than to test it. They're more akin to a "spreekbeurt". This one for example was just talking about a classmate. The next one would be talking about the weather. They can use paper etc if they want to, though they are encouraged not to. Everything they have to say is set up so they have already written it down and practiced similar language in controlled practices.

For most students who are shy or afraid to do similar tasks, the problem is usually that they lack the language, and usually they are afraid to speak in any context. For him it's clearly something else. Because he's not afraid to speak 1 on 1, with me or other students, nor in pairs or groups.

I'll talk to the manager to see what we can do for him, because the chance that he gets any help outside of school is very slim. It's not really part of the culture, and tbh I doubt there's even a trained child psychologist in the city.

[Radix_Lecti]

I see. Culture does play a role as well.
Goes to show how ridiculously complex the Dutch educational system has become.
I have weird specialists picking up sts. for 10-min. talks all the time. So dumb if you compare that with ur st. who rly needs help.

[deleted_user0]

I see. Culture does play a role as well.
Goes to show how ridiculously complex the Dutch educational system has become.
I have weird specialists picking up sts. for 10-min. talks all the time. So dumb if you compare that with ur st. who rly needs help.

I don't teach in the Netherlands. But yeah, the Dutch system is complicated. But other systems are perhaps too simple at times.

Culturally there's a lot of pressure on the kids, from a very young age. They go to public school, then they go to private school in the evening or weekend, and the rest of the time many of them also go to extra curricular clubs. And it's all about grades/results. We try to mitigate it as much as possible, but some of the parents demand that every fart is graded, basically. There's not really anything such as special education, and at least in the private schools, basically a student that needs more time than other children to tackle the language, isn't given that time at all, and is just pushed through to the next level, basically because parents won't accept that a student needs to do it again. Probably cause of loss of face, and also loss of money.

this video sums it up a little, of course it's satire. NSFW.
Start at 0.55

phpBB [video]

[Radix_Lecti]

You can use the culture to force the st. to memorise and practise his presentations. (School/parents)
Parents appreciate more homework from you and sts respect you more if u do.

His English is quite good you say so you could use Flipping the classroom for him and your classes. Create a google class or MS Class or your own Word document with step-by-step instructions and links to Google forms as homework. Basically you move all language instruction to homework and use the class for talking and writing only. In Korea, a Harvard research found sts. output increased by 200%.

use this as hw. Reading is the best way to learn English.

https://www.eslfast.com/

https://www.knewton.com/infographics/flipped-classroom/

[Radix_Lecti]

[The next one would be talking about the weather.

I remember having sts. in Korea create a poster on precipitation- ocean-sun-clouds-rain and I had a few kids talking about precipitation and evaporation. Parents loved it. In Korea presentations only served as a marketing tool for parents, not as a grade perse. So you need products. Why not have him :

1 read text
2 gap-fill exerc.
3 unscramble sentences
4 memorise vocab.
5 make a poster, /story

https://quizlet.com

flo-joe.com

kahoot.com