Do you believe in the death penalty?

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Re: Do you believe in the death penalty?

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Goodspeed wrote:It's a gradual, societal change. Teaching is the solution, it just takes a long time for that kind of change to happen. People need to be taught respect, and that's a tough thing to teach. Widespread poverty and a general dog eat dog attitude makes it even harder.

Harsher punishment is indeed a band-aid solution. It might still help though.


you're honestly gonna have to chop off the dicks of around 50% of all the adult men in the world. And that's provided you're even gonna get a conviction, which is actually a key part of this problem. There are a lot more rapes than are reported. Victims are vulnerable, and often the perp is someone who knows the victim, or even has some level of control over the victim, as a parent, a guardian, a boss or a pimp. So often even the family doesn't want this to leak, and often the police also discourages the people from going to trial, because the defense of the perp will often try to destroy your reputation. Of course this is different when it comes to statutory rape. Regardless, it's not just a matter of heavier sentences. It's also a matter of reporting crime, detecting the crime (especially as a parent, friend or even partner), raising awareness among victims and preventing victim blaming and shaming which ties back into reporting crime, after trial care (in many countries victims simply aren't safe if they would report such a crime), training the police in how to handle this (often the police are ill trained, or they're actually also rapists, for example many prostitutes are raped by police, and they often don't take rapes against prostitutes seriously anyway) aka, you're gonna have to change the ENTIRE culture. So you might as well just start with education anyway.
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Re: Do you believe in the death penalty?

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Of course. Like I said, that is the real solution it just takes time. But a band-aid might help, too, in the short term. I'm definitely not for cutting anyone's dick off
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Re: Do you believe in the death penalty?

Post by Amsel_ »

There isn't much use for slave labor in the 21st century, and life in prison is super expensive. Because of technology and globalization it's not really viable to exile people these days. Bullets and rope are a cheap way of getting rid of people who you can't have running around in civilized society. Although I wouldn't apply it as liberally as some people seem to imply. "You killed someone so you get the death penalty" seems almost inhumanly legalistic. A person's character matters a lot in sentencing. I don't see the reason in ruining a repentant young man's life if he kills a drug dealer or what-have-you.
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Re: Do you believe in the death penalty?

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Post by gibson »

honestly I wouldn't be opposed to cutting the dick off of men who are serial rapists
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Re: Do you believe in the death penalty?

Post by spanky4ever »

this is prolly like sticking your finger in to a wasp hive , cos its a loaded issue - but there is one thought that you should keep in mind when jugding: how about the many ppl killed by government that where found out innocent - and all the ppl sent to long prison sentences that where innocent?
And what does this tell you about your sence of right and wrong, if you can "kill" a person for "killing" another. To me its barbaric, even though I can feel hatred for ppl who killed other ppl. Spesically if children where involved.
To you @gibson who want to cut the dick of ppl who are serial rapists? Here is one thought; If I where to be a rapist, and did it again, It would prolly be safer to kill the woman, so she could not tell on me, - so I could save my dick. This kind of thinking would only make the lives of woman even more un-safe
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Re: Do you believe in the death penalty?

Post by spanky4ever »

But then again, Norwegian prisons have rehabilitation as a goal, and not just punishment. The most jail time you can serve in Norway is 21 years. In addition you can sometimes get a sentence that will make sure you are monitored - that can be in jail, or in a home, or something else - If you are a threath to society for being "insane and dangerous" or if there is a real danger that you could commit a serious crime again.
Sometimes I wish the prison sentences where longer, but all in all, im pretty happy about how things are here, with the lowest recidivism rates in the world.
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Re: Do you believe in the death penalty?

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@Vinyanyérë , you articulated that really well. I suppose you mean to say that, say you could, if subject A made decision Y at X point in time, if you could "rewind" to just before X point in time, subject A would make decision Y again, and always would.
Objective morality has to be present or else this conversation would have no point, right? It's not that there is no such thing as wrong, just that there is no such thing as personal responsibility for personal wrong.

So absolve moral responsibility and there is no individual condemnation. De facto there is no moral commendation.

What factors, if not will, determine the products?

1) Genetics
2) Upbringing
3) Experiences

Where 2) and 3) are not-so-different and I suppose can be grouped into one category.

Every altruistic act is the product of some other thing than will, then. If human acts are chemically predetermined, will is a construct, and acts of heroism aren't heroic, and celebration of individuality is a construct -- we should really be celebrating their parents’ genes, their parents’ parents’ genes, their parents’ experiences, their parents’ parents experiences, and so on.

We are really the instantaneous end of a continually growing decision tree -- where there are really no decisions in the true sense -- where our personal decision tree is nested within our parents’ decision tree, and so on. What is the beginning of the first decision tree? If there must be a start, how did it come about? Suppose it had any number of “possible” branches: of 2 or 3 or 4 or
 was this first decision a true decision or was it, too, predetermined? The branches either possess(ed) the same objective moral goodness, or one of better goodness than the other, or worse, or
 it does not matter. If there were an infinite amount of potential starting branches it started with one particular branch, whether by means of true decision or determination, you argue the rest follows as determined, and that is all we know. There has to be an origin -- has to be.

It is like a game of plinko. Idk how the ball gets dropped onto the pegs just that it does -- and once it starts, it is determined to the end -- however “unpredictable” it may be.

Then if we exist in this determined plinko experience, if the push of the plinko ball was either so it ends on the best objective moral timeline or the worst, or somewhere in between, in essence, because it is determined, objective morality is for all intents and purposes not a thing, and people are chemical die only, and moral nihilism in unavoidable, and this theory is a theory of a lack of responsibility of a thing which does not exist to us.

In a determined world, what has intrinsic value? What is worth celebration and condemnation? What can be discussed? What can be gained from what we discuss?

It's too dire for me. Or am I taking it the wrong way, or did I make a mistake?
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Re: Do you believe in the death penalty?

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deleted_user wrote:@Vinyanyérë , you articulated that really well. I suppose you mean to say that, say you could, if subject A made decision Y at X point in time, if you could "rewind" to just before X point in time, subject A would make decision Y again, and always would.
Objective morality has to be present or else this conversation would have no point, right? It's not that there is no such thing as wrong, just that there is no such thing as personal responsibility for personal wrong.

So absolve moral responsibility and there is no individual condemnation. De facto there is no moral commendation.

What factors, if not will, determine the products?

1) Genetics
2) Upbringing
3) Experiences

Where 2) and 3) are not-so-different and I suppose can be grouped into one category.

Every altruistic act is the product of some other thing than will, then. If human acts are chemically predetermined, will is a construct, and acts of heroism aren't heroic, and celebration of individuality is a construct -- we should really be celebrating their parents’ genes, their parents’ parents’ genes, their parents’ experiences, their parents’ parents experiences, and so on.

We are really the instantaneous end of a continually growing decision tree -- where there are really no decisions in the true sense -- where our personal decision tree is nested within our parents’ decision tree, and so on. What is the beginning of the first decision tree? If there must be a start, how did it come about? Suppose it had any number of “possible” branches: of 2 or 3 or 4 or
 was this first decision a true decision or was it, too, predetermined? The branches either possess(ed) the same objective moral goodness, or one of better goodness than the other, or worse, or
 it does not matter. If there were an infinite amount of potential starting branches it started with one particular branch, whether by means of true decision or determination, you argue the rest follows as determined, and that is all we know. There has to be an origin -- has to be.

It is like a game of plinko. Idk how the ball gets dropped onto the pegs just that it does -- and once it starts, it is determined to the end -- however “unpredictable” it may be.

Then if we exist in this determined plinko experience, if the push of the plinko ball was either so it ends on the best objective moral timeline or the worst, or somewhere in between, in essence, because it is determined, objective morality is for all intents and purposes not a thing, and people are chemical die only, and moral nihilism in unavoidable, and this theory is a theory of a lack of responsibility of a thing which does not exist to us.

In a determined world, what has intrinsic value? What is worth celebration and condemnation? What can be discussed? What can be gained from what we discuss?

It's too dire for me. Or am I taking it the wrong way, or did I make a mistake?


Don't be too worried @deleted_user4. This is based on the false premise that human actions are simply the result of chemical interactions in the brain. Fortunately (I believe by planning) human beings also have a conscience and have an intrinsic sense of right and wrong. Although we are commit morally distainable acts, we do have a moral code to live by.
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Re: Do you believe in the death penalty?

Post by VinyanyĂ©rĂ« »

umeu wrote:Moral responsibility isnt necessary to advocate punishment. I take it you dont advocate no legal system at all. So why is that? If were not reaponsible? You can argue for the death penalty not because they broke a moral law. But because thwy are a threat to the community. Responsibility is irrelevant for this. We could also argue that it serves as a warning trigger that might steer these chemicals in a different direction (though data show this to be ineffective to date).

In in the end your notion of moral responsibility isn't necessarily coherent. You can still punish based on morality even if there's a lack of agency when there is intent. Even when Jones had no "choice" but to kill Smith, he's still guilty in a moral sense if he wanted to kill smith. Ofcourse intent is difficult to prove in court.

I'm nit a big fan of the guilty discourse. I prefer to talk about responsibility. That's what we ought to teach every member of the community. And wether it's a rational agent or a bunch of chemicals, we are what we are. And we're responsible for our actions.

And if everything is hardcore determined then this discussion is pointless anyway but we'll have it regardless because its in our script.

I addressed this. I don't think that moral responsibility is a necessary condition for punishment, but I do believe that it is a necessary condition for retributive punishment. And I think that the death penalty is primarily retributive and only secondarily incapacitative (compared to alternatives, like imprisonment), so we should do away with it.

Intent matters; punishment changes with intent, but it doesn't create moral responsibility. Intent changes how we'd look at a punishment when we consider the punishment on its incapacitation, rehabilitation, and deterrence axes. If Jones kills Smith accidentally, then we have less reason to believe that he'll kill someone else in the future (there's a lesser need for incapacitation), we have less need to rehabilitate (he probably already thinks that what he did was wrong), and we have less need to deter others from doing the same (trivially, people already don't want to accidentally kill others).

Goodspeed wrote:I don't think free will is necessary for moral responsibility. Besides, the more I read about people's interpretations of free will, the more I think it's a nonsensical concept. If your will is being influenced by randomness, then how is it any more "free" than if it isn't influenced by randomness (and is therefore predictable)?

Humans act predictably. But this doesn't make them not responsible for their actions. In short, imo, a person isn't responsible for what they want, but is responsible for what they do. If you want to kill a person, that's fine, but if you act on that urge you have to be held accountable. You made that decision, and it influenced others around you quite negatively. Whether you are wired to do it or not is irrelevant. I see why people would think so, but I don't think determinism and responsibility are mutually exclusive.

I run into a similar argument when trying to convince @XeeleeFlower that selfless acts exist. Ultimately all of our actions are selfish, but selfishness and selflessness, in a crazy twist, are not mutually exclusive either. If acting against your own best interest to help someone else made you feel good, you were selfishly selfless.

I am still against the death penalty because even though we are all responsible for our actions, death is not an effective punishment. Punishment needs to be about rehabilitation, and if that doesn't work the criminal should still be given a chance at a life away from society.

Yes, a position that is even stronger than the "free will doesn't exist" position is the "free will is so not real that it can't even be coherently defined", and yes, I take that position. Anyway, when I say "moral responsibility", I'm not saying that people shouldn't be "responsible" in the sense that they shouldn't be punished - they absolutely need to be be. But the punishment should only serve to incapacitate, rehabilitate, deter, or restore - these have measurable benefits to the perpetrators, victims, and the rest of society. Retributive punishment, i.e. "you should suffer because you did something wrong" rather than "you should suffer because the alternative will cause greater future harm" without free will becomes "you should suffer because you are unlucky". Note also that these non-retributive justifications for punishment don't exclude the death penalty being a possible punishment, but I do think that the case for capital punishment is diminished significantly if it can't be carried out for retributive reasons.

deleted_user wrote:@Vinyanyérë , you articulated that really well...In a determined world, what has intrinsic value? What is worth celebration and condemnation? What can be discussed? What can be gained from what we discuss?

It's too dire for me. Or am I taking it the wrong way, or did I make a mistake?

So it's probably not quite true that someone put in the same exact situation twice with the same genetics and prior experiences will respond identically both times - this is because the universe is probably not actually deterministic, but the non-determinism is just a bunch of probability functions and I've not seen convincing evidence that this gives any space for "free will" to come in. And I don't know how much any of that matters on a macro scale, but it seems to be small enough that we can treat the world as "effectively" deterministic. Anyway

I don't think a lack of free will or even a deterministic universe strictly excludes an objective system of morality. Steven Pinker doesn't believe in free will, but I do think that he believes in an objective morality - or at least, one that's biologically ordained rather than divinely. I'm not particularly bothered by the existence or nonexistence of objective morality, although I do probably tend to think of things less as good or bad and more as "things that happen". Without objective morality, I think the worst thing that happens is that we have to wrap everything we say in a bit of formalism, moving from "we should do X", to "if we want Y to happen, then we should do X", and if anyone says "well I don't want Y", my response is "that's really great, now I'm going to have to ask you to step away from me and let me finish my dinner".
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Re: Do you believe in the death penalty?

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Post by Goodspeed »

Callen I know your post was addressed to Duck but I found it interesting and wanted to reply.
deleted_user wrote:I suppose you mean to say that, say you could, if subject A made decision Y at X point in time, if you could "rewind" to just before X point in time, subject A would make decision Y again, and always would.
And, if you had all the information contained in the universe, you would be able to predict its entire past and its entire future. That’s determinism.

But there is something weird about the concept of free will. There is one difference between a deterministic brain and a non-deterministic brain: randomness. A deterministic brain is commonly viewed as not having free will. It follows, then, that a non-deterministic brain is “free”. The thing I don’t get is why people view this as more “free”. I would argue that if the decision is influenced by randomness it’s not even fully your will, let alone free.

Despite this problem with the concept, for some reason it’s still often used in discussions such as the one about the death penalty.

Objective morality has to be present or else this conversation would have no point, right? It's not that there is no such thing as wrong, just that there is no such thing as personal responsibility for personal wrong.
Let me ask you this: If our brains were non-deterministic (aka random, unpredictable) would there be personal responsibility then? Why? Again I would argue you are actually less responsible because your decision was influenced by randomness.

Just because we’re wired a certain way changes nothing in the context of responsibility, imo. We are responsible for our actions, morally or otherwise, because they are our actions. We have free will in that we are free to act according to our own unique motivations.

We are really the instantaneous end of a continually growing decision tree -- where there are really no decisions in the true sense -- where our personal decision tree is nested within our parents’ decision tree, and so on. What is the beginning of the first decision tree? If there must be a start, how did it come about? Suppose it had any number of “possible” branches: of 2 or 3 or 4 or
 was this first decision a true decision or was it, too, predetermined? The branches either possess(ed) the same objective moral goodness, or one of better goodness than the other, or worse, or
 it does not matter. If there were an infinite amount of potential starting branches it started with one particular branch, whether by means of true decision or determination, you argue the rest follows as determined, and that is all we know. There has to be an origin -- has to be.
Origins is a tough one. You alluded to the only thing I can think of that doesn’t run into a paradox: There’s an infinite amount of potential starting branches, and they are all happening at the same time. Our reality is just one of the ways it could go. Everything exists.

Then if we exist in this determined plinko experience, if the push of the plinko ball was either so it ends on the best objective moral timeline or the worst, or somewhere in between, in essence, because it is determined, objective morality is for all intents and purposes not a thing, and people are chemical die only, and moral nihilism in unavoidable, and this theory is a theory of a lack of responsibility of a thing which does not exist to us.
Objective morality is certainly not a thing. But morality is still important in any situation where multiple individuals are living together. Humans did not invent morality, ours is just more complex and let’s say less forgiving than that of other species’ because it needs to be and we can afford it to be.

In a determined world, what has intrinsic value?
Nothing. But again I can turn this around on you: In a world influenced by randomness, what has intrinsic value? Still nothing.

What is worth celebration
Everything that makes us happy.
and condemnation?
Everything that makes us unhappy.
What can be discussed?
Everything.
What can be gained from what we discuss?
Knowledge, understanding. Indirectly, happiness.

Why is any of this different in a deterministic universe compared to a non-deterministic one?

It's too dire for me. Or am I taking it the wrong way, or did I make a mistake?
If it’s too dire to you then I would say you are taking it the wrong way, yes. Because to me it’s the opposite of dire. Yes, the universe doesn’t care and nothing inherently matters. So what? Why do you need things to matter objectively? Things matter to you, don't they?

Isn’t it comforting that there is order in this apparent chaos? Isn’t it beautiful in a way? And besides, everything may be predictable in theory, but it isn’t to us. You can still choose to either play AoE3 or not play AoE3. To have a beer or not have one. Try this: At some point, when you are going to do something trivial, don’t do it. Sure, you were predetermined not to do it in the end, but did that matter? That choice was yours alone and you made it.
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Goodspeed wrote:
What is worth celebration
Everything that makes us happy.
and condemnation?
Everything that makes us unhappy.
do you eat meat?
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Post by zoom »

Does Goodspeed not care about black sheep?

Yes. Yes.
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Re: Do you believe in the death penalty?

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deleted_user wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:
What is worth celebration
Everything that makes us happy.
and condemnation?
Everything that makes us unhappy.
do you eat meat?
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Re: Do you believe in the death penalty?

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How silly to think that GS may be Japanese.
Pay more attention to detail.
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Re: Do you believe in the death penalty?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

I've only read the first posts so what I'll say has probably been said.

I don't believe in the death penalty, because first of all, as some people pointed out, there can be mistakes. My numbers might be wrong but I heard that about 30 people sentenced to death in the USA were proved unguilty thanks to DNA analysis. 30 is really a lot.

Furthermore, some studies actually showed that a death sentence was actually more expensive than a life sentence, because you need years before you can kill someone, and the jails for prisoners sentenced to death are more expensive than regular jails (high security etc).

Finally, I think that it's morally wrong to kill someone. It's like he killed people so we're going to kill, it makes you a murderer too.

Thus, to me it seems better to sentence murderers to life, as it has the same effect as death, but it is cheaper, morally better, and it's still possible to free someone who's innocent.
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iwillspankyou wrote:To you @gibson who want to cut the dick of ppl who are serial rapists? Here is one thought; If I where to be a rapist, and did it again, It would prolly be safer to kill the woman, so she could not tell on me, - so I could save my dick. This kind of thinking would only make the lives of woman even more un-safe

Im surprised this comment comes from a woman. To counter your statement I'd say killing the victim is always safe for the rapist because RAPE IS A CRIME WHICH WILL LEAD TO SOME PUNUSHMENT lol. They know they are doing wrong and if they're caught they are dead(not literally).
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Re: Do you believe in the death penalty?

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Yea, in my opinion (and that's going to be a very controversial one, I know that), rape isn't like a murder at all. Of course it's violent, and of course it hurts someone, but today for some reasons (feminism and the rape occurency being the 2 main reasons) people think that rapists and murderers are the same.
And they're not. Rape is a crime, but raped woman can live after a rape, they definitely can not after getting murdered. That's why I think that a rape sentence should be somewhere between 5 and 10 years of prison, and definitely not life sentence, death penalty or cutting their dicks lol.
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Why are you surprised by exactly?
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[Armag] diarouga wrote:Finally, I think that it's morally wrong to kill someone. It's like he killed people so we're going to kill, it makes you a murderer too.

No it's not the reason, the reason of capital punishment is that the accused did something which can not be forgiven and he can be a threat to society if he's set free. So if he's not safe for society why waste the money of tax payers giving food and safety and electricity and water to them?
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Post by zoom »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:Yea, in my opinion (and that's going to be a very controversial one, I know that), rape isn't like a murder at all. Of course it's violent, and of course it hurts someone, but today for some reasons (feminism and the rape occurency being the 2 main reasons) people think that rapists and murderers are the same.
And they're not. Rape is a crime, but raped woman can live after a rape, they definitely can not after getting murdered. That's why I think that a rape sentence should be somewhere between 5 and 10 years of prison, and definitely not life sentence, death penalty or cutting their dicks lol.
As far as I know, it isn't controversial that murder is a worse crime than rape. Is it?
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Re: Do you believe in the death penalty?

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kami_ryu wrote:It solves the problem of having scum that has no place in society be out of it permanently. There's no need to pay for the cost of the person's living for instance.

I can see the issue with making a mistake with the conviction. We can assume that for the sake of discussion that there is pretty much no mistake to be made with the conviction. In other words the death penalty would be applied only if it were absolutely certain that the person committed the crime in the first place.

Life is certainly precious but I wonder if it's actually all that precious to humanity. People die all the time after all, often due to sheer neglect. Consequently I wonder how much I would value the life of someone who murdered my daughter or something.

Gichtenlord wrote:
kami_ryu wrote:Also we could get rid of life sentences. Which is money saved.

Killing someone by death penalty is very expensive in the US. Shouldnt be too hard to find on google.


I mean if it's that expensive they're doing it wrong. Or someone's palms are getting greased when they shouldn't be.
Just tuck them out for life or until they are considered rehabilitated. Make them work in prison, producing a net gain to society (their crime notwithstanding).
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Re: Do you believe in the death penalty?

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Ashvin wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:Finally, I think that it's morally wrong to kill someone. It's like he killed people so we're going to kill, it makes you a murderer too.

No it's not the reason, the reason of capital punishment is that the accused did something which can not be forgiven and he can be a threat to society if he's set free. So if he's not safe for society why waste the money of tax payers giving food and safety and electricity and water to them?

Well, this was a moral argument. To me, even someone who killed his family deserves to live and can change.

Anyway, you're coming with economic arguments here. One of my points was that, in the US at least, it is more expensive to kill somebody, than it is to sentence him to life.
I agree with you that a murderer is a threat if he's free, and that's why I think life sentence is the solution.
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Re: Do you believe in the death penalty?

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zoom wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:Yea, in my opinion (and that's going to be a very controversial one, I know that), rape isn't like a murder at all. Of course it's violent, and of course it hurts someone, but today for some reasons (feminism and the rape occurency being the 2 main reasons) people think that rapists and murderers are the same.
And they're not. Rape is a crime, but raped woman can live after a rape, they definitely can not after getting murdered. That's why I think that a rape sentence should be somewhere between 5 and 10 years of prison, and definitely not life sentence, death penalty or cutting their dicks lol.
As far as I know, it isn't controversial that murder is a worse crime than rape. Is it?

Yes it is, I know many people who argue that both are the same and that rapists should be sentenced to life/death.
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Re: Do you believe in the death penalty?

Post by zoom »

Warno wrote:
Gichtenlord wrote:I dont believe in death penalty. For me, life is the most precious thing on earth and even if a murderer killed several people, you should not have the ability to take his life as punishment. In the end, the ultimate goal of jail should be the rehabilitation of the punished and trying to integrate him back into society.


Maybe that’s where we differ.
I don’t think someone that has taken multiple lives has the ability to rehabilitate.
Would you feel comfortable with a convicted mass murderer living beside you or working in the next cubicle ?
That's where life-sentences come in handy.
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Re: Do you believe in the death penalty?

Post by zoom »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
zoom wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:Yea, in my opinion (and that's going to be a very controversial one, I know that), rape isn't like a murder at all. Of course it's violent, and of course it hurts someone, but today for some reasons (feminism and the rape occurency being the 2 main reasons) people think that rapists and murderers are the same.
And they're not. Rape is a crime, but raped woman can live after a rape, they definitely can not after getting murdered. That's why I think that a rape sentence should be somewhere between 5 and 10 years of prison, and definitely not life sentence, death penalty or cutting their dicks lol.
As far as I know, it isn't controversial that murder is a worse crime than rape. Is it?

Yes it is, I know many people who argue that both are the same and that rapists should be sentenced to life/death.
Do you know of any relevant place where rape is considered a crime equally harsh to murder?

With that said, I don't think it's unreasonable to hand out life-sentences to unrehabilitatable rapists, even though the crime is less serious than some others – it's still plenty serious, and society wouldn't want them roaming.

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