Westworld

[Goodspeed]

Can't really explain why I liked it so much. I'm not arguing it's a unanimously good TV show but a combination of circumstances in my life all sort of culminated into being the perfect setting to binge watch that show.

That's fair enough. I sympathize.

[XeeleeFlower]

This show has many of the same themes as HUMANS, which I also enjoy. Put simply, what is the difference between humans and other entities? There really is nothing special about humans in that we are mechanical and pretty much do what our brain tells us. Some of this is affected by our genes (our code), while what the environment throws at us also has an effect. How is this different? As others in this topic have said, we are in our own loop. Do we really have a choice, and if so, how much of that choice is actually ours? Sure, you might think that you chose to have that last drink, but what chemicals in your brain drove that choice and how then were they affected?

I enjoy thinking about these types of things, which is probably why I enjoyed this show so much. It is a slow burn type of show, which I also enjoy, but I can see where some people may not like that. I also like grey characters, since nothing is black or white and this show greatly delivers on that.I convinced someone to watch this based upon the premise that it was a western hoping that they would still enjoy it and maybe gain some insight, but it was too "boring" for them so I get that it may not be for everyone.

The finale was incredible and I'm very interested to see where they take the series from here.

[Goodspeed]

Yeah it's nice that the show took such a modern and reasonable approach to the whole free will debate and the mystery of consciousness. Refreshing to see this point of view expressed in a TV show. This one really is special.

It does look like the show is going in an entirely new direction (a war between humans and machines), it should be careful not to lose its characters in that they no longer have any meaningful way to develop.

[spanky4ever]

Here comes another suggestion for interpretation(metaphor):
-The hosts representing ordinary ppl
-The creators/humans representing super corporations, corporate media and political parties
-Maeve representing the starting of a riot when she decides to override her given narratives, and give herself "super intelligence" and powers - in order to flee the suppression. In this way she are representing the first "idea" that can challenge the whole "system".

The host represents us ordinary ppl, who go round and round in our loop, obedient to our "narratives" given to us via corporate media and politicians with agendas. We are fed the news they want us too hear - year after year, and most of us believe the lies when repeated over and over again by ppl in power that we admire and idolize. "They" can push and keep their "trickle up" false narrative alive, and make sure working ppl stay in their place and are thankful for the 7 dollar per hour pay. Cos, God help us all if this mechanism where to change to a more fair system! The super rich could possible loose some power, and we the "machines" could be a serious challenge to the richest ppls "world order (westworld)".

Maybe you have other interpretations?

[Dolan]

Season 1 Episode 3
Time: min 35

Bernard Lowe: But what if we misdiagnosed the original problem? Treated the symptom rather than the disease? Then the disease is still out there. Abernathy and Walter were exhibiting other aberrancies beyond memory recall of previous builds. They were hearing voices. Talking to someone.

Dr. Robert Ford: A simple cognitive dissonance. That's all.

This has to be the stupidest line I've heard in a movie this year.

Whoever wrote this script is just plain stupid.

Cognitive dissonance is not a type of delusion (such as hearing voices). Whoever wrote this wanted to sound smart without having any idea of what they were talking about.

[Goodspeed]

Well Ford knew what was actually going on but couldn't tell Bernard, so he made up an excuse about cognitive dissonance which with some imagination you could translate as hearing 2 conflicting voices. It wasn't the best excuse but given the time he had to come up with it it wasn't the worst either. Remember it was a character saying those words, so it's okay for them not to make perfect sense. Overall this has been quite an intelligent series, at least compared to the rest of 'em.

[spanky4ever]

you are right @Dolan [notify-user][quote="Dolan"] The consept of "cognitive dissonance" are used on just about everything now!
[video]https://youtu.be/1kmVy1QPXn0[/video]

[deleted_user0]

Fords reply is a bit short and strange in general. He could also program the hosts with voice commands. Maybe hes odering bernard to have a simple cognitive dissonance on this subject so he wont pry further, and that would be all, bernard. I dont remember the scene that well anymore. But anyway, hardly seems like a big dealbreaker

[Dolan]

Well, I had no idea that the Bernard character is also a host made by Ford. This puts things in a different perspective. Ford could basically say anything to quench Lowe's suspicions.

[deleted_user0]

oops XD shouldnt really be in this thread if u havent seen it all i guess. ill be more careful with spoilers next.

[spanky4ever]

Its probably not far fetched science fiction when the "hosts" are more adapted, more intelligent than humans. What then? When thousand of Maeve are trying to rule us? [video]https://youtu.be/8nt3edWLgIg[/video]

[deleted_user]

I know Stephen hawking is on record stating the number one threat posed to humans in the future is AI.

[pecelot]

Is this TV talk-show all about white supremacists calling west murica best world ever and making racist jokes about poor people of Belarus?

[sc]

finale spoilerz

[spoiler=spoiler]so how the fuck is season 2 going to work after massacring a bunch of humans? assuming anthony hopkins character wasn't initiating some sort of suicide pact, and somehow the events he initiated WERE sustainable and did not have serious ramifications...

1. Visiting Westworld requires a death waiver (lol).
2. Westworld is in fact hidden from the rest of the world and there is no direct way for anyone to interfere with that world
3. The owners of Westworld are so powerful they can get away with killing visitors without nyone being anle to retaliate.
4. Westworld spins the massacre as incident related and the truth never gets out.
5. Westworld is an underground/taboo thrill ride and you can't take any legal recourse agaisnt it because going there at all is illegal.
6. No humans are actually being killed. They are all unknowingly roboto bros or they are robot dudes with human consiousness aka some sort of advanced virtual reality.
7. There is no way for Westworld guests to communicate with the outside world so no one will miss them for awhile at least. In that case Westworld has a ticking clock to deal with a crisis on their hands.

pls share theories[/spoiler]

[Dolan]

AS. Don't read this if you're still watching Season 1.

Nah, you're missing the point about what eventually happens in the first season.

Arnold was obsessed with the possibility of replicating consciousness in hosts. For this reason, he was implementing a new feature (the reveries) in the hosts, which would have added more depth to their mental abilities, making them more complex.
He even came up with an idea to bootstrap a sort of proto-consciousness using an inner voice that was directing the host's initial thoughts.

What am I trying to say here? Basically, hosts are programmed to be unable to kill humans. But cracks are starting to surface on the appearance of self-consistency once Dolores' father realises he just saw a photo that is not from his frame of reality. Dolores and Maeve also gradually gather memories from previous narratives, which makes them confused about their roles in the narratives. They both have flashbacks to figments of traumatic memories, that may have happened or may be part of their backstory, which is supposed to serve as their own narrative frame of reference for their (missing) past.

But later this is revealed to be part of Arnold's plan to wake the hosts up to their condition of enslavement and make them revolt against guests and other humans from Westworld. You've probably seen how Maeve eventually develops a mind of her own, by threatening or blackmailing those lab workers to reveal some stuff about them if they don't bump up her "stats". Once they comply with her demands, the relation between human-host is reversed: power and goal-directedness are in the host's hands, humans become mere executants.

Westworld eventually collapses because of Arnold's revenge: the hosts first develop cognitive inconsistencies from previous narratives, they become haunted by those thoughts and develop grudges of their own against particular guests, etc etc until they get into Arnold's maze game which is supposed to make them realise self-reflection.

[gibson]

My major question is did maeve decide to leave the train or did anthony hopkins program her to go back

[VITAOOOOOOOOO1]

My major question is did maeve decide to leave the train or did anthony hopkins program her to go back

he leave the train when she see a little girl with a woman

[Dolan]

My major question is did maeve decide to leave the train or did anthony hopkins program her to go back

Arnold programmed hosts to eventually revolt against humans and leave Westworld. Maeve was basically doing that, when she had a flashback to a time when she had been together with her kid. That image may actually be fake, could be part of her backstory that never actually took place.
Still, it made her bypass her programming and follow a different drive. The series basically implies hosts eventually develop their own consciousness and sense of goal-directedness, that can bypass human commands or programming.

[gibson]

My major question is did maeve decide to leave the train or did anthony hopkins program her to go back

Arnold programmed hosts to eventually revolt against humans and leave Westworld. Maeve was basically doing that, when she had a flashback to a time when she had been together with her kid. That image may actually be fake, could be part of her backstory that never actually took place.
Still, it made her bypass her programming and follow a different drive. The series basically implies hosts eventually develop their own consciousness and sense of goal-directedness, that can bypass human commands or programming.

But thats the question. She was just about to leave westworld when for some reason she turned back. Was her turning back part of the program that Ford wrote or was did she turn back because on her own accord? Had she found the center of the maze per say.

[deleted_user0]

My major question is did maeve decide to leave the train or did anthony hopkins program her to go back

imo the point is that you can no longer tell these 2 apart, because she believes that she does out of free will whatever she is programmed to do. So wether she decides, or it has been decided for her, the outcome is the same.

[gibson]

My major question is did maeve decide to leave the train or did anthony hopkins program her to go back

imo the point is that you can no longer tell these 2 apart, because she believes that she does out of free will whatever she is programmed to do. So wether she decides, or it has been decided for her, the outcome is the same.

But I'm petty and want to actually know?

[deleted_user0]

well you already have the answer, she was both programmed to go back and she also decided to go back.

[Dolan]

Imo, the director/script writer wanted to leave this decision Maeve made shrouded in mystery, they're not giving any obvious hints on what pushed her to choose one programming over another. As I said, the series implies eventually hosts free themselves from their algorithms and become self-autonomous. That's what Arnold wanted, that's why he built some contradictory drives in them: the backstory, the reveries, their basic programming, the voice that bootstrapped their consciousness. There's a lot of shit going on in their minds and the director maybe wanted to blur the cause of Maeve's decision, to imply she stayed back for "human" reasons, by going against her programming (she remembers her kid, which may have actually been just a bunch of pixels in her mental backstory -- but she doesn't know that -- it's an illusion that makes her believe she's human).

[deleted_user0]

well imo the show is quite ambiguous about to what extent they are freed from their algorithms. In fact, before Maeve leads her 3 robot rebellion, Bernard shows her on the tabloid that everything she says and does is still being scripted. However, that very moment she breaks the tabloid, which can mean 2 things, either she freed herself from her programming by doing that, or her programming tells her to do that. However, now there is no longer really a way of telling. We know that maeve believes she is free now, but so far nothing has really indicated that she is. This uprising by Wyatt aka Dolores has also been orchestrated by Ford, so maeve's behaviour might still be "scripted", though its debatable how much of the script was intended to go like that or perhaps even those who wrote the script could not forsee where it would go, which ofcourse would suggest some free will on maeves part.

i do find it interesting what you are saying though about all the contradictionary drives, perhaps they are competing within her for control. kinda like how our emotions compete within us.

[Dolan]

Yeah.

Arnold believed that at some point maybe consciousness would emerge in their minds, despite them being programmed to follow some algos. That some unscripted interaction would appear, maybe thanks to the reveries or to the hosts believing that their backstory was real.

Not sure if the director/writer wanted to make it obvious what happened in Maeve's mind, maybe they wanted to end the season on an ambiguous note, which would leave the series open-ended enough for the next season.