This makes me really sad

This is for discussions about news, politics, sports, other games, culture, philosophy etc.
User avatar
Tuvalu gibson
Ninja
ECL Reigning Champs
Posts: 13597
Joined: May 4, 2015
Location: USA

Re: This makes me really sad

Post by gibson »

Snuden wrote:Thread is open for trailer park rednecks...!

You have clearly never dated a woman (for obvious reasons) Listen kiddo, there is a difference between a woman and the girls from the skateboard park.
To ME a woman is a feminine individual... Makes sense? I am stating my PERSONAL liking for women.

A woman stay home? Where the hell did I mention that?
yea you're right I guess I'll just go back to my trailer and crack toothed girls and SJW for them
User avatar
Spain Snuden
Jaeger
Posts: 4276
Joined: Dec 28, 2016
ESO: Snuden
Location: Costa del Baphomet

Re: This makes me really sad

Post by Snuden »

Gendarme wrote:@deleted_user4

Now on to address what you are actually saying. For some reason you are assuming (or intentionally deceptively portraying) that most expectations and requirements of women are negative. Being different does not imply one being worse than the other, and having requirements does not imply a self-perception of being superior. "Act like a man, dress like a man, speak like a man" can be—and is—said just as easily, and neither of these two phrases imply contempt or anything of the sort. Your assumption that it carries such an implication is simply wrong.

Yesh!
[Sith] - Baphomet
User avatar
United States of America Cometk
Retired Contributor
Posts: 7257
Joined: Feb 15, 2015
Location: California

Re: This makes me really sad

Post by Cometk »

Snuden wrote: If "modern" women prefer to run around pretending they are Bob the builder, . . .
i think this is the most problematic statement and shows latent misogyny, as if a woman can't be a perfectly capable tradesmen
Image
User avatar
Spain Snuden
Jaeger
Posts: 4276
Joined: Dec 28, 2016
ESO: Snuden
Location: Costa del Baphomet

Re: This makes me really sad

Post by Snuden »

Cometk wrote:
Snuden wrote: If "modern" women prefer to run around pretending they are Bob the builder, . . .
i think this is the most problematic statement and shows latent misogyny, as if a woman can't be a perfectly capable tradesmen

Dude... If it rocks your boat, fine. I just prefer my women in a skirt rather than a pair of welding overalls.

:flowers:
[Sith] - Baphomet
User avatar
Sweden Gendarme
Gendarme
Donator 03
Posts: 5132
Joined: Sep 11, 2016
ESO: Gendarme

Re: This makes me really sad

Post by Gendarme »

Cometk wrote:
Snuden wrote: If "modern" women prefer to run around pretending they are Bob the builder, . . .
i think this is the most problematic statement and shows latent misogyny, as if a woman can't be a perfectly capable tradesmen
Not wanting your wife to be a carpenter is certainly not the same as believing that women can't be tradesmen or hating female carpenters.
Pay more attention to detail.
User avatar
Spain Snuden
Jaeger
Posts: 4276
Joined: Dec 28, 2016
ESO: Snuden
Location: Costa del Baphomet

Re: This makes me really sad

Post by Snuden »

Gendarme wrote:
Cometk wrote:
Snuden wrote: If "modern" women prefer to run around pretending they are Bob the builder, . . .
i think this is the most problematic statement and shows latent misogyny, as if a woman can't be a perfectly capable tradesmen
Not wanting your wife to be a carpenter is certainly not the same as believing that women can't be tradesmen or hating female carpenters.

It is! But only if you are unable to read.

:flowers:
[Sith] - Baphomet
User avatar
United States of America Cometk
Retired Contributor
Posts: 7257
Joined: Feb 15, 2015
Location: California

Re: This makes me really sad

Post by Cometk »

Snuden wrote:
Cometk wrote:
Snuden wrote: If "modern" women prefer to run around pretending they are Bob the builder, . . .
i think this is the most problematic statement and shows latent misogyny, as if a woman can't be a perfectly capable tradesmen

Dude... If it rocks your boat, fine. I just prefer my women in a skirt rather than a pair of welding overalls.

:flowers:
Gendarme wrote:Not wanting your wife to be a carpenter is certainly not the same as believing that women can't be tradesmen or hating female carpenters.
i'm not arguing against your sexual preference, rather the phrasing "''pretending' to be Bob the Builder'" as very dismissive and pretentious
Image
User avatar
Spain Snuden
Jaeger
Posts: 4276
Joined: Dec 28, 2016
ESO: Snuden
Location: Costa del Baphomet

Re: This makes me really sad

Post by Snuden »

Holy shiit... "the most problematic..."

In their eagerness of preaching social justice they come of as imbeciles.
[Sith] - Baphomet
No Flag deleted_user
Ninja
Posts: 14364
Joined: Mar 26, 2015

Re: This makes me really sad

Post by deleted_user »

Gendarme wrote:@deleted_user4 "Imposing behaviors" and "unable to parcitipate" require some clarification. One could say that having wholly mutual agreements imposes behaviors and makes people unable to do certain things. As long as there is no violence (including law enforcement) or threats thereof, any imposition is nothing but an agreement (e.g. "I will be your girlfriend only if you stop smoking."). There are of course many cases where violence is involved, sometimes equally against men and women and sometimes inequally, sometimes justified and sometimes not. While this is an interesting topic of discussion, we aren't discussing situations where violence is involved (at least I don't think so), so I'll leave it at that.

Now on to address what you are actually saying. For some reason you are assuming (or intentionally deceptively portraying) that most expectations and requirements of women are negative. Being different does not imply one being worse than the other, and having requirements does not imply a self-perception of being superior. "Act like a man, dress like a man, speak like a man" can be—and is—said just as easily, and neither of these two phrases imply contempt or anything of the sort. Your assumption that it carries such an implication is simply wrong.

Women generally don't get upset when you hold open the door for them. However, see it as an analogy that demonstrates the absurdities of the things that you are criticizing, for holding up the door for your woman is not really different to letting your woman stay with the kids while you work.


I am merely and utterly arguing for the will of the individual to be upheld. Snuden's remarks imply the will of the woman is secondary to his own. That's simply not the case, but was and has been for so long, no?

I'm not saying expectations are always negative, but that they're needless. If a woman wishes to do "womanly" things so be it. If she wishes not, so be it. See? It's a very open interpretation which only seems absurd for some sort of institutionalized mindset.

I find the phrase "act like a man, dress as a man, speak as a man, because of being a man" similarly peculiar. Shocking! I know! Note this is not arguing for the demasculinization of the modern man, or something, just an upholding of personal will.
User avatar
Spain Snuden
Jaeger
Posts: 4276
Joined: Dec 28, 2016
ESO: Snuden
Location: Costa del Baphomet

Re: This makes me really sad

Post by Snuden »

Cometk wrote:
Snuden wrote:
Show hidden quotes

Dude... If it rocks your boat, fine. I just prefer my women in a skirt rather than a pair of welding overalls.

:flowers:
Gendarme wrote:Not wanting your wife to be a carpenter is certainly not the same as believing that women can't be tradesmen or hating female carpenters.
i'm not arguing against your sexual preference, rather the phrasing "''pretending' to be Bob the Builder'" as very dismissive and pretentious

Ok... fair enough I guess.
However, I think men are generally better construction workers than women (for a variety of reasons)

Maybe with the exception of Gibson.

:flowers:
[Sith] - Baphomet
User avatar
Sweden Gendarme
Gendarme
Donator 03
Posts: 5132
Joined: Sep 11, 2016
ESO: Gendarme

Re: This makes me really sad

Post by Gendarme »

@deleted_user4 Snuden is implying no such thing, which is what I sought to explain with my post. He is just not being overly careful with his wording and obviously doesn't care for diplomacy, which makes it easy to shout "Misogynist!" while ignoring his actual point.
Pay more attention to detail.
User avatar
United States of America Cometk
Retired Contributor
Posts: 7257
Joined: Feb 15, 2015
Location: California

Re: This makes me really sad

Post by Cometk »

Snuden wrote:
Cometk wrote:i'm not arguing against your sexual preference, rather the phrasing "''pretending' to be Bob the Builder'" as very dismissive and pretentious

Ok... fair enough I guess.
However, I think men are generally better construction workers than women (for a variety of reasons)

Maybe with the exception of Gibson.

:flowers:
not necessarily "better", but certainly capable of more physically strenuous tasks. funnily enough, women are more often managers of the construction projects than they are the workers of them
Image
No Flag deleted_user
Ninja
Posts: 14364
Joined: Mar 26, 2015

Re: This makes me really sad

Post by deleted_user »

Gendarme wrote:@deleted_user4 Snuden is implying no such thing, which is what I sought to explain with my post. He is just not being overly careful with his wording and obviously doesn't care for diplomacy, which makes it easy to shout "Misogynist!" while ignoring his actual point.

I'd read his and my posts again and see which is coming off the more rational. It feels like you're grasping at straws to twist his pretty clear view of women into something that isn't the very same view which has oppressed women for so long. Do you have any qualms with my own stance? Look at history, at the ill treatment of women. Look at today, at womens' progress. Look at the male reaction to it.

You're saying, "--but Snuden isn't saying that, your interpretation is incorrect." The interpretation is quite apparent to me though, dangerously so.

One can attempt to rationalize a bigoted view, discover some sort of half truth, and convince themselves of its supposed perpetual truth. Careful!
User avatar
Spain Snuden
Jaeger
Posts: 4276
Joined: Dec 28, 2016
ESO: Snuden
Location: Costa del Baphomet

Re: This makes me really sad

Post by Snuden »

deleted_user wrote:
Gendarme wrote:@deleted_user4 Snuden is implying no such thing, which is what I sought to explain with my post. He is just not being overly careful with his wording and obviously doesn't care for diplomacy, which makes it easy to shout "Misogynist!" while ignoring his actual point.

I'd read his and my posts again and see which is coming off the more rational. It feels like you're grasping at straws to twist his pretty clear view of women into something that isn't the very same view which has oppressed women for so long. Do you have any qualms with my own stance?

You're saying, "--but Snuden isn't saying that, your interpretation is incorrect." The interpretation is quite apparent to me though, dangerously so.

So you interpret it as I belittle women?
[Sith] - Baphomet
No Flag deleted_user
Ninja
Posts: 14364
Joined: Mar 26, 2015

Re: This makes me really sad

Post by deleted_user »

I interpret it as you having predetermined behavioral expectations of women to a certain degree. Am I incorrect? "Implied" would really be an understatement. I am pointing out predermined expectations of that degree have historically led to a gross oppression of one gender (and many races -- in other matters). I am arguing predetermined behavioral expectations of that degree should no longer be a thing and for the will of the indivual to purely and utterly and freely exist, which may naturally fall into traditionalist relationships or may not, but not because of traditionalist views, but because of the natural wills of the peoples coinciding. More likely than not the relationship of equally manifested wills leads to an equal relationship in nearly all regards -- as the underlying human nature present in us all predominates gender. Can this stance be so easily criticized?

I cannot express it more simply than this. As I said earlier -- I have no disillusions of swaying anyone's view. I'm providing a voice many people are probably relieved to read.

Edit: I keep lengthening this post to provide a more clear definition of what I believe.
User avatar
Sweden Gendarme
Gendarme
Donator 03
Posts: 5132
Joined: Sep 11, 2016
ESO: Gendarme

Re: This makes me really sad

Post by Gendarme »

I am astonished by how alien non-feminist opinions are to you. You are so far off drawing parallels between the discrimination of masculinity and femininity and oppression of women.
Pay more attention to detail.
User avatar
Spain Snuden
Jaeger
Posts: 4276
Joined: Dec 28, 2016
ESO: Snuden
Location: Costa del Baphomet

Re: This makes me really sad

Post by Snuden »

deleted_user wrote:I interpret it as you having predetermined behavioral expectations of women to a certain degree. Am I incorrect? "Implied" would really be an understatement. I am pointing out predermined expectations of that degree have historically led to a gross oppression of one gender (and many races -- in other matters). I am arguing predetermined behavioral expectations of that degree should no longer be a thing and for the will of the indivual to purely and utterly and freely exist. Can this stance be so easily criticized?

I cannot express it more simply than this. As I said earlier -- I have no disallusions of swaying anyone's view. I'm providing a voice many people are probably relieved to read.

You are correct in assuming that I like women to act, dress, etc... in a certain way (if I am to consider them a partner or lover)
But that does not mean that I belittle women, who dress or act differently - they are just not for me.

Women can be shipbuilders for all I care, I just find it unappealing to a great extent.

And yes, I am also against the idea that women HAVE TO be equal to men in some matters, just like men can't be equal to women in other matters. I am getting tired of all this "we are all equal" nonsense, facts are that we are not.

Please note that I don't question women's intellect at all here (I am saving that for another thread)
[Sith] - Baphomet
No Flag deleted_user
Ninja
Posts: 14364
Joined: Mar 26, 2015

Re: This makes me really sad

Post by deleted_user »

Gendarme wrote:I am astonished by how alien non-feminist opinions are to you. You are so far off drawing parallels between the discrimination of masculinity and femininity and oppression of women.
To be sure this conversation is going nowhere as the very same could be said of you and feminist views.

Discrimination exists on both fronts, yes. To argue there is no male discrimination in certain areas of life and that this view is an inherent part of feminism is incorrect. But to dismiss discrimination of women because the discrimination of men exists is also equally incorrect (not necessarily saying you are expressing this -- but it too often seems to be a view held). To be entirely frank the discrimination of women has, quite plainly, obviously and recently been the more prevailing force, and so it is the prevailing activism of rights. Buy and large you are at a clear and distinct advantage being born male. If you read that sentence and immediately dismiss it as far left folly I urge you to approach this from a more objective standpoint as you so claim you do. If you think the current climate is leading to "reverse discrimination" of men, ask yourself if this is not just the equalizing of societal stance between the genders.

As to Snuden, I have nothing else to say. You should let each woman you bring home read your posts in this thread and gather their opinion! I'd be curious, is all.
User avatar
Spain Snuden
Jaeger
Posts: 4276
Joined: Dec 28, 2016
ESO: Snuden
Location: Costa del Baphomet

Re: This makes me really sad

Post by Snuden »

I can guarantee you that no women enters my domicile unless she's in minimum 3" heels and can memorize at least 10 bitcoin transaction ID's.

Quite a few Russian and Chinese women in Cyprus :flowers:
[Sith] - Baphomet
User avatar
Sweden Gendarme
Gendarme
Donator 03
Posts: 5132
Joined: Sep 11, 2016
ESO: Gendarme

Re: This makes me really sad

Post by Gendarme »

@Snuden You're moving ahead too quickly! They have yet to be convinced that women are better mothers than men are. It is way too early to discuss more sensitive matters.

@deleted_user4 Discrimination (assuming we're going with the definition of "recognition and understanding of the difference between one thing and another") of men and women exists, and is not being denied by anyone here. I am arguing that discrimination is not necessarily bad. I agree that you are at a disadvantage being born female, but only due to the fact that it is so hard for women to find a proper man nowadays—something which is partly due to modern feminism. If by discrimination you mean something else (i.e. "unjust treatment of a category of people"), I am curious to get a current example of that and if possible also an explanation of how any of my or Snuden's opinions are unjust.
Pay more attention to detail.
User avatar
Spain Snuden
Jaeger
Posts: 4276
Joined: Dec 28, 2016
ESO: Snuden
Location: Costa del Baphomet

Re: This makes me really sad

Post by Snuden »

I know... but is very difficult for me to understand why we ABSOLUTELY have to be equal and I tend to get quite excited, which eventually will get me banned.
Whats next? Gender neutrality?

A good friend of mine recently became father and in his euphoric state of ridiculousness he said "I am perfectly fine if my daughter decides to become gender neutral"
I nearly got a heart attack, which I don't think he noticed because he carried on with "yes, maybe some days she wants to be a girl and other days maybe a boy.

It's getting out of control!
[Sith] - Baphomet
Canada Jam
Jaeger
Posts: 3107
Joined: May 16, 2015
ESO: Hyperactive Jam

Re: This makes me really sad

Post by Jam »

Snuden wrote:Please note that I don't question women's intellect at all here (I am saving that for another thread)
Oh god :lol:
No Flag deleted_user
Ninja
Posts: 14364
Joined: Mar 26, 2015

Re: This makes me really sad

Post by deleted_user »

Gendarme wrote:Discrimination (assuming we're going with the definition of "recognition and understanding of the difference between one thing and another") of men and women exists, and is not being denied by anyone here. I am arguing that discrimination is not necessarily bad.


Wow that is one misconstrued definition! Of course physiological differences between genders exist, they are secondary to the human nature in us all -- an individual's ability to think, feel, and be unique. If by applying the physiological differences of the genders one obstructs the individual's will (i.e. expectations of how they should behave) -- that is unjust. This is everything Snuden has expressed and admitted to in so far. His defense is that, "but it is just my personal preference." Which is true, it is his personal preference. I am arguing his sense of personal preference stems from a damaging, overarching stereotype which is the same damaging, overarching stereotype which has historically oppressed women, meaning, their lack of basic rights -- that is, the idea that women are womanly beings more so than they are thinking, feeling beings. That they should fit into a predetermined role rather than in whichever role they wish to fil themselves! It's a very dangerous mindset.

Today this prejudice exists in more "nuanced" areas such as workplace opportunities, positions of power, rape and sexual abuse, etc. Note, these issues affect all genders but again, historically, plainly, and clearly, they affect women more. Thus we see the majority of activism on the woman's behalf. Feminism is the disavowing of all prejudices across all genders. I will not argue for third wave feminism as you and Snuden are the embodiments of the failure of the second wave which deals merely with the issues I stated above.

Gendarme wrote:I agree that you are at a disadvantage being born female, but only due to the fact that it is so hard for women to find a proper man nowadays—something which is partly due to modern feminism.


Nothing to say here. It speaks for itself to any sane person. I cannot appeal to already embedded delusion.

Gendarme wrote: If by discrimination you mean something else (i.e. "unjust treatment of a category of people")


Yes, this is the most commonly held definition of "discrimination." Less than 100 years ago women could not vote. Black men were allowed to vote before women in America. As you can see, racism has clearly evaporated in today's climate /s /s. Sexism is no longer an issue either /s /s /s /s /s It can't possibly be that presupposed remnants of how women should act or behave have lingered.

Gendarme wrote:I am curious to get a current example of that and if possible also an explanation of how any of my or Snuden's opinions are unjust.

I addressed Snuden above. To be frank you have yet to outline a belief other than a general disdain for anything "feminism" and that women are only disadvantaged in life because she "cannot find a 'proper man.'" How ridiculous you sound.

I will restate my position: that the manifest of the personal will should be always the most free, barring immoral complications. You are so eager to tell an entire gender what is and is not good for them -- how to act and be -- not affording a choice. You appear to be approaching obstruction of their own will, not physically, but socially, with the harmful view that physiological differences do not yield to personal human nature.

Snuden's preference for women who act as he believes women "should" act is part of a larger whole -- the same damaging societal mindset of virtually all of history!
User avatar
Spain Snuden
Jaeger
Posts: 4276
Joined: Dec 28, 2016
ESO: Snuden
Location: Costa del Baphomet

Re: This makes me really sad

Post by Snuden »

Luckily for me there are plenty of women out there, who like to be treated as a woman.

Good night.
[Sith] - Baphomet
User avatar
Spain Snuden
Jaeger
Posts: 4276
Joined: Dec 28, 2016
ESO: Snuden
Location: Costa del Baphomet

Re: This makes me really sad

Post by Snuden »

And now I will dream of all of them!
[Sith] - Baphomet

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests

Which top 10 players do you wish to see listed?

All-time

Active last two weeks

Active last month

Supremacy

Treaty

Official

ESOC Patch

Treaty Patch

1v1 Elo

2v2 Elo

3v3 Elo

Power Rating

Which streams do you wish to see listed?

Twitch

Age of Empires III

Age of Empires IV