Hillary Clinton for president

[knusch]

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Europe would be a superpower if its people hadn't all moved to america

That's one reason why America is so strong -- many of the most adventurous of the people of other countries came here to live.

Lol more like the rejects

Those who will end up being pioneers and frontiersmen usually don't fit in well in a controlled and regimented society.

weren't the first ppl settling down in america basically religious fanatics?^^

[Dolan]

I think it was more like opportunists who fled to America because they heard about huge plots of free land up for the taking. And since it was a risky endeavour, only the most adventurous embarked on such a trip. So, I'm not sure if they were rejects or the smartest bunch. Probably neither. They surely wanted to get that free land and resources that they probably didn't have in their own country.

But sure, for many America may have been the promised land not only for the free land, but also for escaping their own past (whether it was criminal or not).

[Dolan]

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5RNDHcevs4[/video]

[Laurence Drake]

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppPu17iWpKE[/video]

[briowl]

Show hidden quotes

Europe would be a superpower if its people hadn't all moved to america

That's one reason why America is so strong -- many of the most adventurous of the people of other countries came here to live.

Lol more like the rejects

Those who will end up being pioneers and frontiersmen usually don't fit in well in a controlled and regimented society.

LOL. I’m British but I live in America and I can tell you that people have far greater freedoms in Europe.

Some Americans ask me how I like living here, but they say it so it’s obvious they just wanna hear me say ‘oh America is so great, it amazing. So much better than where I come from’, which they are only ever dimly aware of. I emigrated here for the sake of my wife’s career. She’s an academic and she’s American but she was struggling to land a job in Europe. I’ve lived and travelled all over the world. I’m the kind of bee that’s willing to fly to where the honey’s sweetest. I like living here, everywhere has upsides, but it wasn’t my first choice and we’ll probably move back to Europe or go to Asia once she’s done her time here.

It’s all about population density. America doesn’t really have much. For every square mile in America there are roughly 85 people. Britain 650. This means the cost of living here is cheap, which in turn means you have the freedom to buy more stuff. I’m about to invest in a very high-end sauna which I couldn’t have dreamed of in the UK, but here it’s just easy. Back in the UK getting together the cash to buy the sauna is one thing, but then finding the space and making sure you’ve got the ventilation and permissions and paying the guys to deliver and install it etc... etc...etc... But here it’s just easy and that’s fun. But then everything’s easy here, which has been a nice change of pace for me.

Low population density also means that competition is weaker. Now I’d never play away from home, and back in the UK I did okay with the ladies before getting married, but American women go TOTALLY gaga for Briowl. Sometimes it’s actually embarrassing the way they gush over Briowl. It’s not just Briowl’s pretty face, kickin’ bod and ‘cute British accent’ (I put that in inverted commas because I don’t have an accent. I just speak English the way it’s meant to be spoken. Quick tip: - The key is to use the jaw and tongue muscles, don't just let your mouth fall open and the words spill out. It’s called enunciation. Clearly defined vowel sounds are what gets the girls wet boys), but it’s also about just having better social skills. Living in close proximity to lots of people from all different walks of life and from all over the world just makes you better at dealing with people.

Perhaps 30-35% or more of Americans are functionally retarded. That figure is maybe only 10-20% max in Europe. It varies obviously, but stronger competition and tougher living conditions just makes Europeans better equipped to deal with stuff. When you live in a small town in America, cut off from the outside world, easy job, easy life and you don’t interact with and haven't ever really interacted with different people, you just end up not very fit to survive outside of your little fishbowl, with a very small frame of reference and little things scare the shit out of you. The functionally retarded are very easy to dismiss, which means you never have to worry much about a big fish coming along and swallowing you up, because you are the pike and they are the minnows and I really enjoy being in that situation.

That applies to the workplace too. The strong US economy provides greater opportunities and with people being spread out a lot more you just don’t get anywhere near the same type of competition for jobs in the US, so you don’t have to be as smart and/or qualified as you do in Europe. The US economy isn’t stronger because Americans are better. America just has a lot of natural resources and land.

Finally, when people are living, tightly packed, bumping into one another, fisticuffs happen. Britain is a much more violent place where you have to be ready to dish out a knuckle sandwich from time to time to defend what's yours. So you get handy. That's why despite having less than a third of the population of the US, Britain has almost the same number of world boxing champs and is about to completely clean up the heavyweight division. It's nice to just relax and not worry about having to lay out some chump who thinks he can get one over on you, but it's also nice to know that if any shit does go down you are much more likely to come out on top.

So life is easier here but the downside to living in America is that:-
1) The food is woeful. Sure British food isn't great but in UK I could take a mini-break to Paris or Seville or Bergamo or to many other places where the food is sensational. Here the food is mainly garbage and never ever even remotely near the same level as in those types of places in Europe.
2) There is almost no cultural life whatsoever. Go to a music festival with world class acts? No. Comedy gig with performers who aren't total shit? No. Museums, Art shows with stuff worth seeing? No and no. Cultural district that you can't completely cover in 15 mins? No. Theatres? Operas? Plays? Fucking anything worth seeing? No, no, no and no. Nothing. Diddly-squat. Zip. Nada. Now I don't really like to go to much of that stuff on a regular basis, but I do like it to be there, I like to have the option should I want it. That's freedom.

People came from Europe to America for a range of reasons. Sometimes it was famine, war, persecution, escaping justice whatever. Most of the time I think they experienced what I have. Life is easier here but a bit less civilised.

Now those first few boatloads of 'pioneers' didn't come to America fleeing religious persecution as a lot of people think. They actually hated tolerant British society and wanted the freedom to persecute others for not sharing their religious beliefs. Unfortunately that has stuck to some extent which is why the US is always 20-50 years behind Europe in terms of granting civil liberties. 13 states still have sodomy laws which include having anal sex with your wife in your own home. Now that might be legal archaeology but still there are plenty of examples. Governments place far more control on what you are and are not allowed to do in the US compared with Europe. Easy isn't the same as free.

Back to the subject of this thread. China will be the leading global superpower in the lifetime of most of the people on this forum. But China was the first leading global superpower (Song Dynasty) and the last time China held that position it behaved a fuck of a lot better than when the West was dominant, so we can all relax about that. As a member of the country that held the largest empire in human history (I also have Mongol blood so whichever way you define it I am that) to members of the soon to be former leading superpower I have some advice for you. Don't try to fight it. China has 4x pop. Just focus on developing your people through civilising activities such as the Arts and maybe we can see that retardation level fall to a more manageable level.

Hillary not Trump will help you in that effort, but enough of you seemed to have realised that by now :)

[Laurence Drake]

good post, but america is very different depending on where you live. New york is more similar to paris or london than small-town Arkansas.

[JakeyBoyTH]

It’s all about population density. America doesn’t really have much. For every square mile in America there are roughly 85 people. Britain 650. This means the cost of living here is cheap, which in turn means you have the freedom to buy more stuff.

Low population density also means that competition is weaker.

Hillary not Trump will help you in that effort, but enough of you seemed to have realised that by now :)

I'm not so sure a low population density makes stuff cheaper. America is much more cheaper than here in NZ. We are just 15 people per Kilometre. It sure isn't cheaper here. Competition plays a much larger role, not to mention import tax. I would say a big factor is simply much more stuff is made in the US than Europe.

I'd vote Trump simply because he is anti-TPP. Which is kinda a big deal here because it means companies can hold the government liable for loss of profit. Here in NZ our government isn't exactly what you would call the best. It is hard to sift through the BS of American politics. Like really we get both candidates suck (Bernie should have got the nomination ), to be frank i'm a bit sick of it. I've watched all the debates and I've yet to come across some actual policies discussed, rather than "rumours" or something Trump did (imo Hilary has done worse stuff, and tends not to be very reliable at all).

[Metis]

@briowl

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I don't know where you get that "functionally retarded" stat. Perhaps you are mistaking the fact that, since the average IQ is set at 100, there always will be about half the population who are "average," a quarter who are "above average" and a quarter "below average." However, this mainly just reflects how the bell curve works and not the fact that a quarter of the US population is functionally retarded.

Many people, especially students, who haven't yet actually gone out and worked have an elitist attitude toward the "working man." If you ever would spend some time in a machine shop you will realize that the concentration and precise knowledge demanded of the job usually far exceeds that needed by your average college student. Who do you think has more practical knowledge, as trade school graduate who holds a master electrician certification and who knows the electrical code inside and out or someone withe a Masters in gender studies? Which of the two do you think actually contributes more to society?

If you think that the food is woeful in America you don't know much about American food. Or, perhaps, you are equating McDonald's to "American food"? McDonald's is a multinational corporation that is the same no matter where you are in the world, it's not just bad in America. You can eat as good in America as you want to, especially if you get off your lazy butt and learn to cook for yourself. If your meals consist entirely of fast food then you will eat the same mediocre crap no matter what country you live in.

I get sick and tired of hearing all this "culture" crap too. I can get much more from spending an evening canoeing down a quiet river or climbing a mountain than from attending a performance La Traviata. Why do you feel that you need to go somewhere and have other people entertain you anyway? If you want to watch an opera or play then you can do so online as just as well in rural Kansas as in New York City. And why even watch a play? You would do better reading a book.

Also, I don't know where you live but rural people here aren't exactly hicks with the backwards views that you seemingly think all Americans possess. Within a hundred yards of me live at least ten people who possess graduate degrees. Nearly all the farmers here are college-educated businessmen who manage companies with assets worth millions. About the only people here with what one might call "rustic" views are the recent migrants from rural Mexico.

[Dolan]

China will be the leading global superpower in the lifetime of most of the people on this forum.

Nah, I don't think so. In the next few decades China will gradually lose the manufacturing powerhouse status it has right now. There are political pressures in both America and the EU to bring back manufacturing jobs, to make sure every country doesn't rely too much on volatile economic activity like financial trading. I mean, look at the UK, where a big chunk of the economy is sustained by the global banking giants, which have been also responsible for lifting the pound and real estate prices in the UK. Now that much of this sector is making preparations to leave London, we're going to see further GBP depreciation and falling real estate prices. Which is neat, because they become more affordable. And a depreciating pound can make exports more competitive. But I expect once the UK is going to be hit by the effects of Brexit, the UK govt will try to consolidate the manufacturing sector, because those are jobs that are not likely to move out as fast as financial global trading jobs.

Europe already has a decent manufacturing sector, but I expect it to continue to grow. Factories are going to be built in Eastern Europe to produce military planes, for example (French capital is involved). The political and military landscape is changing and governments across Europe are realising a future US president may not be willing to keep a huge military presence in Europe to keep Russians in check. That's why we're going to see an increase in military equipment manufacturing spending in Europe and most of that investment is going to be located in the EU. The EU is already entertaining plans to create its own military force, so that it would't have to depend on the US/NATO for its security. There are issues of defense and security in Europe, especially now with the migration problem, that can't be solved by NATO, so there will be a push towards creating EU military defense structures. Which is nothing new, the EU used to have such an organisation back when the WEU was active.

It's the US which has lost most of the manufacturing jobs to China, imo. Also China having the largest portfolio of US debt is another reason why the USA is captive in this economic relationship. China has a surplus in trade with the US which it keeps investing in US debt. If they "suddenly" decided to stop doing that, who do you think would be able to finance the huge US spending deficit?

Also, lately China shows signs that it may evolve away from the current economic model based on cheap exports, to an economy based more on domestic consumption. Which means they will have to let their currency appreciate in value and raise wages, so that their GDP growth would depend less on exports and more on Chinese people having the purchasing power to buy more.

The EU is already aggressively regulating against having an influx of cheap Chinese products on the common market and I expect this effort to increase. Also, considering the political pressures in Europe to battle high unemployment, I think regulators will be less forgiving of EU firms which outsource their manufacturing to China in the future.

Overall, the current economic model that made China thrive until now is already showing signs of fatigue. It just doesn't work anymore and Chinese leaders already know that. Building huge ghost cities just to get some artificial GDP growth going is not going to be a sustainable path in the future. They know they can't keep being an exports-based economy ad infinitum. Germany may be an exports-based economy, but it's located inside the EU, where it has access to a huge market of 450 milion consumers with an average high purchasing power. So they don't need to produce as cheap as China, they can produce better quality products and still be able to sell, since purchasing power in Europe is higher than in China.

[Laurence Drake]

China will be the leading global superpower in the lifetime of most of the people on this forum.

Nah, I don't think so. In the next few decades China will gradually lose the manufacturing powerhouse status it has right now. There are political pressures in both America and the EU to bring back manufacturing jobs, to make sure every country doesn't rely too much on volatile economic activity like financial trading. I mean, look at the UK, where a big chunk of the economy is sustained by the global banking giants, which have been also responsible for lifting the pound and real estate prices in the UK. Now that much of this sector is making preparations to leave London, we're going to see further GBP depreciation and falling real estate prices. Which is neat, because they become more affordable. And a depreciating pound can make exports more competitive. But I expect once the UK is going to be hit by the effects of Brexit, the UK govt will try to consolidate the manufacturing sector, because those are jobs that are not likely to move out as fast as financial global trading jobs.

Europe already has a decent manufacturing sector, but I expect it to continue to grow. Factories are going to be built in Eastern Europe to produce military planes, for example (French capital is involved). The political and military landscape is changing and governments across Europe are realising a future US president may not be willing to keep a huge military presence in Europe to keep Russians in check. That's why we're going to see an increase in military equipment manufacturing spending in Europe and most of that investment is going to be located in the EU. The EU is already entertaining plans to create its own military force, so that it would't have to depend on the US/NATO for its security. There are issues of defense and security in Europe, especially now with the migration problem, that can't be solved by NATO, so there will be a push towards creating EU military defense structures. Which is nothing new, the EU used to have such an organisation back when the WEU was active.

It's the US which has lost most of the manufacturing jobs to China, imo. Also China having the largest portfolio of US debt is another reason why the USA is captive in this economic relationship. China has a surplus in trade with the US which it keeps investing in US debt. If they "suddenly" decided to stop doing that, who do you think would be able to finance the huge US spending deficit?

Also, lately China shows signs that it may evolve away from the current economic model based on cheap exports, to an economy based more on domestic consumption. Which means they will have to let their currency appreciate in value and raise wages, so that their GDP growth would depend less on exports and more on Chinese people having the purchasing power to buy more.

The EU is already aggressively regulating against having an influx of cheap Chinese products on the common market and I expect this effort to increase. Also, considering the political pressures in Europe to battle high unemployment, I think regulators will be less forgiving of EU firms which outsource their manufacturing to China in the future.

Overall, the current economic model that made China thrive until now is already showing signs of fatigue. It just doesn't work anymore and Chinese leaders already know that. Building huge ghost cities just to get some artificial GDP growth going is not going to be a sustainable path in the future. They know they can't keep being an exports-based economy ad infinitum. Germany may be an exports-based economy, but it's located inside the EU, where it has access to a huge market of 450 milion consumers with an average high purchasing power. So they don't need to produce as cheap as China, they can produce better quality products and still be able to sell, since purchasing power in Europe is higher than in China.

your conclusion is right but your arguments are wrong

in thirty years I will come to esoc and make you realise in just what way

[JakeyBoyTH]

your conclusion is right but your arguments are wrong

in thirty years I will come to esoc and make you realize in just what way

The building boom in China is mainly caused by the mining in Australia - thats where they get most of their steel from. Of course now that the mines are drying up (Which is hard to do in Australia, where is is very dry), Australia cannot supply more steel. More buildings cannot be made (Those gigantic skyscrapers and ghost towns). The Chinese boom stops. This steel is not only used in buildings, but also manufacturing will take a hit, reducing exports. Once you reduce the exports of an export-based economy. Well, you're in a bit of a pickle then.

Just my average conspiracist view.

[Laurence Drake]

Commodity prices are at their lowest point in a decade.

[Dolan]

Commodity prices are low because economic activity has decreased, so there is lower demand, including in China. In fact, China's tanking production has brought these low oil prices.

And there are multiple causes for which China is landing right now. Some are general (lower economic activity across the world, less spending) others could be more specific, as Jakey mentioned.

[Laurence Drake]

There is no recession...

[Goodspeed]

There's not even an economy

[JakeyBoyTH]

your conclusion is right but your arguments are wrong

in thirty years I will come to esoc and make you realize in just what way

The building boom in China is mainly caused by the mining in Australia - thats where they get most of their steel from. Of course now that the mines are drying up (Which is hard to do in Australia, where is is very dry), Australia cannot supply more steel. More buildings cannot be made (Those gigantic skyscrapers and ghost towns). The Chinese boom stops. This steel is not only used in buildings, but also manufacturing will take a hit, reducing exports. Once you reduce the exports of an export-based economy. Well, you're in a bit of a pickle then.

Just my average conspiracist view.

I can assure you that china gets their steel from china.

They do get a lot of it from Australia

[Metis]

The U.S. Department of Commerce has imposed more duties on corrosion-resistant steel imports from China and elsewhere in an effort to protect its industry from a glut of steel imports.

-- CNBC, May 2016

[Laurence Drake]

Doubt it. China dominates the steel industry as well as iron ore production. #1 in both.

Australia provides a ton of bauxite which is used in aluminum manufacturing.

I have an unbiased fact-based source which contests that https://www.rightwingbullshit.com/true_conspiracies

[JakeyBoyTH]

Australia's main export is iron ore (25% of all Australian exports), 77% of that goes to china.
http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/visualize ... 2601/2014/
I'm no expert but that may mean China could be buying some of that iron ore.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-colum ... SKCN0V5147
In 2015 they shipped 607.4 million tonnes of it there.

I know I said steel but I meant iron. I'm a biologist not a geologist or whatever this field is.

[howlingwolfpaw]

little bit of geology, little bit of metallurgy. Iron ore is unrefined, its useless rock at that point but can be smelted into iron and processed further to add carbon to make steel or chromium and other trace metals to make stainless steel. So they may be getting iron ore mined from Australia but producing their own steal in china rather than importing steel. Its really a semantics of words and miscommunication from what I can tell.

To me, steel alloys are the most awesome material found on earth. for its strength, resilience, abundance are unparalleled. There may be some nano, carbon tube based materials engineered at the molecular level that may have some superior traits but I do not know if they will ever really match the versatility of steel in all areas.

if the land is the earths bones, and the water its blood, nature its life, I consider it the "spirit" of the earth.

[Metis]

It's amazing what some people can do with basic raw materials. I watched a show once where a guy, starting only with a bucket of "dirt," a log and a rock, ended up with a flintlock rifle.

[oxaloacetate]

There's not even an economy

[...]the idiots couldn't see that by doing all this frivolous spending, they were mocking the economy! And they made the economy very angry. We're all feeling the economy's vengeance because of materialistic heathens who did stupid things with their money.

[briowl]

good post, but america is very different depending on where you live. New york is more similar to paris or london than small-town Arkansas.

True, I lived in Seattle which you could basically slice off from the rest of America and reattach to some part of Europe and no one would really notice. Same goes for Portland, Oregon. I'm not saying America doesn't have metropolitan areas, but take places like New York and Chicago out of the equation and you end up with the rest of America having whole hectares to themselves.

[briowl]

It’s all about population density. America doesn’t really have much. For every square mile in America there are roughly 85 people. Britain 650. This means the cost of living here is cheap, which in turn means you have the freedom to buy more stuff.

Low population density also means that competition is weaker.

Hillary not Trump will help you in that effort, but enough of you seemed to have realised that by now :)

I'm not so sure a low population density makes stuff cheaper. America is much more cheaper than here in NZ. We are just 15 people per Kilometre. It sure isn't cheaper here. Competition plays a much larger role, not to mention import tax. I would say a big factor is simply much more stuff is made in the US than Europe.

The reasoning is lower housing costs and business rents feeds through to everything else, which is fundamentally true. In the case of NZ, I would guess that you import alot and it being a smallish market and difficult to ship to means prices are high, that being significant effort to outweigh factors relating to the availability of land.

[briowl]

@briowl

notification

I don't know where you get that "functionally retarded" stat.

Extrapolating the trump vote

About the only people here with what one might call "rustic" views are the recent migrants from rural Mexico.

learn to cook for yourself.

I only cook at home here because there is no where half decent to eat out at. Plus I just know I'm a fuck of a lot better cook than you sunny jim. The point is there is a huge difference between home cooking and fine dining. I don't have the time to invest to replicate what world class professional chefs do. You don't understand this because you clearly haven't eaten out in Kyoto, Madrid, Hong Kong or the more upmarket joints in London. It's out of your frame of reference

If you ever would spend some time in a machine shop

Err no thanks. BTW blue collar workers discount how hard professional people work so that they can loaf around the factory floor, cracking jokes from the 70's and playing with little bits of metal, before taking a leisurely 11am morning shit while flicking through a porn mag.

There are chaps in the UK who will take the orginal designs of a classic car and completely hand build the entire machine from scratch, hand milling the cylinder heads or whatever, beating out the aluminium panels by hand. I have enormous respect for the patience and attention to detail those chaps have hopefully it's not too far in the future that I'll be able to afford to commission my own and in that event I'd love to visit them and watch my car being made.

That's one thing but I know mechanical engineers and the hoops they have to jump through to design parts that might end up being made in a machine shop. Financing, production, business implications etc... etc... What they have to know and the skills they possess are far greater plus they may opt to hand machine prototypes themselves so often they have all the of machinist's skills in addition to knowing biggish bits of lots of other jobs too. Programming skills, using lots of design packages, etc.. etc..

No the point is about having the social skills to connect with other people from a range of different walks of life and being able to learn about them instead of just carping on about stuff that falls within your own narrow frame of reference