DONALD TRUMP DICTATOR OF THE WORLD

[iNcog]

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[deleted_user0]

Exactly, because people should judged for their actions, not the actions or prejudice of others.

[gibson]

Yea talk to any sort of minority and you'll find that almost all of them have experienced some sort of nastiness at some point. I've asked every black person I know well enough to feel comfortable asking them if they've experienced racism, and everyone of them has said yes. It's generally subtle, such as a store employee following them around the store to "prevent them from stealing" but they've also all experienced blatant racism, being called a nigger to their face etc. Even worse with my gay friends. How would you feel if you couldn't display any affection to your significant other in public without fear of being scorned and possibly even physically harmed? I do think metis has a bit of a point that the media does set a bit of a double standard, but outside of that no so much.

[iNcog]

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[iNcog]

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[Metis]

I have heard it first hand from my mo and grandmother who have lived through a war of independence vs imperial rule. There is footage in the media that shows the racism directly out of the mouth of the source. If you look at the usa, there is still original footage of civil rights movement.

And all of this was a lifetime ago. Even I am barely old enough to remember the civil rights movement. Like the adage says, "actions speak louder than words." There is not rampant discrimination in the US, just as there is not rampant terrorism -- it's just a that a few incidents are over-hyped by the media. Most people in the US are decent, cordial folks. I used to teach students from all over Central America and the Caribbean through a USAID program, none of them ever felt discriminated against in America; quite the opposite, they all loved it here and wished they could stay. Ironically, the most obvious discrimination seen now is perpetrated by the SJWs, who want to segregate anyone they think of as different from the mainstream population into "safe spaces," apart from the majority of people who are just living their lives without bothering anybody.

[91]

but feel free to prove that any muslim is so much more likely to commit violent crime than any US citizen, that it's worth discriminating them.

I would argue that even if you could prove that, they shouldn't be discriminated. No one deserves discrimination, no group, no faith, nothing.

I agree, unfortunately it's difficult to use this as an argument for people who don't agree

[Metis]

but feel free to prove that any muslim is so much more likely to commit violent crime than any US citizen, that it's worth discriminating them.

I would argue that even if you could prove that, they shouldn't be discriminated. No one deserves discrimination, no group, no faith, nothing.

I agree, unfortunately it's difficult to use this as an argument for people who don't agree

I don't think that many of you see the point in vetting Muslim refugees from war-torn areas before you allow them into your country. Surely those of you from countries in Europe that have seen thousands of refugees pour across your borders and have had some of these groups harbor terrorists can see this. This is not about disallowing people of the Muslim faith per se to immigrate into the US, it's about vetting people from a group known to harbor terrorists before letting them into the country.

[Dolan]

I would argue that even if you could prove that, they shouldn't be discriminated. No one deserves discrimination, no group, no faith, nothing.

I'm not sure about this anymore. I mean, this is how I've been educated based on Locke's "Letter on tolerance" and the aftermath of the Reformation, which brought the idea of tolerance and freedom of thought in Europe.

But experience seems to show multiculturalism is not really working. Robert Putnam, a political scientist, has been arguing that cultural diversity in a community eventually brings civic apathy and disengagement (in his book, Bowling Alone: The Collapse and Revival of American Community, 2000).

And the failure of Muslim communities to integrate in Western Europe (France, Belgium, the UK, Sweden) seems to support this thesis. There is partial integration in these countries, sure, you can find examples of Muslims or Maghrebians that integrated (when I went to an optician in Brussels, the doctor was an Arab woman), but for each one well-integrated person you can find 9 others that haven't internalised the values of the culture in which they live. So, for example, if European culture tolerates every other culture (religious beliefs etc), some cultures which are hosted by it do not reciprocate this tolerance, they hold values and tenets which claim absolute allegiance and veracity.

I did notice in Brussels that most Muslims lived in their own neighbourhoods, instead of mixing with people of other cultures. Same thing was true for many blacks, though not all. You could also see a segregation in terms of occupations, basically all taxi drivers were Arabs or blacks.

So despite the fact that Belgium, as a European country, offered free education up to the first master's degree to anyone, it seems most immigrants are not quite interested in following this path. So what else is left for them if they're not interested in higher education? Well lots of them deliver pizza, work as taxi drivers, live on welfare, or work in cornershops or in their relatives' small businesses (like kebab or fast food shops).

Molenbeek, an Arab neighbourhood in Brussels, is an example how badly multiculturalism failed in some Western countries. Read about Molenbeek and the policies of Philippe Moureaux, the former Socialist mayor who nurtured this Arab neighbourhood into a breeding ground for terrorism: https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/6959 ... r-moureaux

[91]

Show hidden quotes

but feel free to prove that any muslim is so much more likely to commit violent crime than any US citizen, that it's worth discriminating them.

I would argue that even if you could prove that, they shouldn't be discriminated. No one deserves discrimination, no group, no faith, nothing.

I agree, unfortunately it's difficult to use this as an argument for people who don't agree

I don't think that many of you see the point in vetting Muslim refugees from war-torn areas before you allow them into your country. Surely those of you from countries in Europe that have seen thousands of refugees pour across your borders and have had some of these groups harbor terrorists can see this. This is not about disallowing people of the Muslim faith per se to immigrate into the US, it's about vetting people from a group known to harbor terrorists before letting them into the country.

Ok first: thousands? Try many hundreds of thousands..

Suddenly it's about muslims from war zones? Not muslims? What about all the non-muslims from war zones? They're fine then? I don't know where this muslim assumptions are even coming from dude. Do you have any sources at all?

Try again and prove that muslims harbor more terrorists than any other group - and compare it with the violent crime statistics in the US please.

[91]

I would argue that even if you could prove that, they shouldn't be discriminated. No one deserves discrimination, no group, no faith, nothing.

I'm not sure about this anymore. I mean, this is how I've been educated based on Locke's "Letter on tolerance" and the aftermath of the Reformation, which brought the idea of tolerance and freedom of thought in Europe.

But experience seems to show multiculturalism is not really working. Robert Putnam, a political scientist, has been arguing that cultural diversity in a community eventually brings civic apathy and disengagement (in his book, Bowling Alone: The Collapse and Revival of American Community, 2000).

And the failure of Muslim communities to integrate in Western Europe (France, Belgium, the UK, Sweden) seems to support this thesis. There is partial integration in these countries, sure, you can find examples of Muslims or Maghrebians that integrated (when I went to an optician in Brussels, the doctor was an Arab woman), but for each one well-integrated person you can find 9 others that haven't internalised the values of the culture in which they live. So, for example, if European culture tolerates every other culture (religious beliefs etc), some cultures which are hosted by it do not reciprocate this tolerance, they hold values and tenets which claim absolute allegiance and veracity.

I did notice in Brussels that most Muslims lived in their own neighbourhoods, instead of mixing with people of other cultures. Same thing was true for many blacks, though not all. You could also see a segregation in terms of occupations, basically all taxi drivers were Arabs or blacks.

So despite the fact that Belgium, as a European country, offered free education up to the first master's degree to anyone, it seems most immigrants are not quite interested in following this path. So what else is left for them if they're not interested in higher education? Well lots of them deliver pizza, work as taxi drivers, live on welfare, or work in cornershops or in their relatives' small businesses (like kebab or fast food shops).

Molenbeek, an Arab neighbourhood in Brussels, is an example how badly multiculturalism failed in some Western countries. Read about Molenbeek and the policies of Philippe Moureaux, the former Socialist mayor who nurtured this Arab neighbourhood into a breeding ground for terrorism: https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/6959 ... r-moureaux

If you treat people like garbage the crime rate will obviously increase. It's integration that has failed - not the people themselves. You make it sound easy to study but it's not. You need to learn the language first, and since all immigration facilities are so overloaded a lot of people can't even take the country language courses even if they wanted to. They have to wait. What you get from this is poor people without education or good jobs. Any religion or culture would have an increased crime rate in these areas. It has nothing to do with the fact that they're muslims. Non-muslims are in the exact same situation. It's just that it happens to be a lot of muslims fleeing their homes and being put through this misery right now.

[deleted_user0]

Thank you metis, for explaining to me that my experiences arent correct because they differ from yours. And that the experiences of countless other peoples arent correct either. Obviously if anyone discriminates its those that resist discrimation, because how dare these scumbags claim their rights

You are right, open discrimation is largely a thing of the past. But it hasnt gone away, much of it is now hidden, not to mention how much of it is subconsiously ingrained in culture. But just because its hidden from you, metis, doesnt mean it doesnt happen. They may not string people up on trees, but lets not pretend the usa is a walhalla for minorities. You just elected a president who ran a racist campaign at the least, if hes not one actually. And the kkk calls him potentially the greatest american ever. But ofcourse, nobody in the usa is discrimated ever, minorities dont feel discriminated, and if they do, theyre just wrong cuz you said so. Black lives matter and such is just a farce, and the people behind it are racists themselves. Even though ofcourse, since obama the usa is now post racial, as the first country in the world since modernity, because metis says so. Damn. The things you learn in a day...

[Dolan]

If you treat people like garbage the crime rate will obviously increase. It's integration that has failed - not the people themselves. You make it sound easy to study but it's not. You need to learn the language first, and since all immigration facilities are so overloaded a lot of people can't even take the country language courses even if they wanted to. They have to wait. What you get from this is poor people without education or good jobs. Any religion or culture would have an increased crime rate in these areas. It has nothing to do with the fact that they're muslims. Non-muslims are in the exact same situation. It's just that it happens to be a lot of muslims fleeing their homes and being put through this misery right now.

Well, you know, French is the 2nd most used language in Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia. So when Arabs from those countries migrate to French-speaking countries, they don't really have to learn the language.
So, they do have free access to education and there's no language barrier.

Any religion or culture would have an increased crime rate in these areas.

Any proof of that?
There is, on the contrary, lots of proofs that Muslim communities in Europe have produced terrorism and other types of criminality, even when there wasn't any language barrier that would have limited their access to education or jobs.

[deleted_user0]

I would argue that even if you could prove that, they shouldn't be discriminated. No one deserves discrimination, no group, no faith, nothing.

I'm not sure about this anymore. I mean, this is how I've been educated based on Locke's "Letter on tolerance" and the aftermath of the Reformation, which brought the idea of tolerance and freedom of thought in Europe.

But experience seems to show multiculturalism is not really working. Robert Putnam, a political scientist, has been arguing that cultural diversity in a community eventually brings civic apathy and disengagement (in his book, Bowling Alone: The Collapse and Revival of American Community, 2000).

And the failure of Muslim communities to integrate in Western Europe (France, Belgium, the UK, Sweden) seems to support this thesis. There is partial integration in these countries, sure, you can find examples of Muslims or Maghrebians that integrated (when I went to an optician in Brussels, the doctor was an Arab woman), but for each one well-integrated person you can find 9 others that haven't internalised the values of the culture in which they live. So, for example, if European culture tolerates every other culture (religious beliefs etc), some cultures which are hosted by it do not reciprocate this tolerance, they hold values and tenets which claim absolute allegiance and veracity.

I did notice in Brussels that most Muslims lived in their own neighbourhoods, instead of mixing with people of other cultures. Same thing was true for many blacks, though not all. You could also see a segregation in terms of occupations, basically all taxi drivers were Arabs or blacks.

So despite the fact that Belgium, as a European country, offered free education up to the first master's degree to anyone, it seems most immigrants are not quite interested in following this path. So what else is left for them if they're not interested in higher education? Well lots of them deliver pizza, work as taxi drivers, live on welfare, or work in cornershops or in their relatives' small businesses (like kebab or fast food shops).

Molenbeek, an Arab neighbourhood in Brussels, is an example how badly multiculturalism failed in some Western countries. Read about Molenbeek and the policies of Philippe Moureaux, the former Socialist mayor who nurtured this Arab neighbourhood into a breeding ground for terrorism: https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/6959 ... r-moureaux

You make some good points, but surely you can also see that discrimination is not the answer here. As you said, there was your doctor, and what's wrong with people delivering pizza's and driving cabs. As long as they do their work honestly? But if you discriminate against all people for belong to that certain group, then all of the above never even wouldve had a chance.

I agree on the point of multiculturalism, in the sense that, you need to share something in order to be a community. The language is a good place to start, it's where every process of integration should start, but it's also a two way street. I've taught language to people coming from another country. I was unqualified (i was supposed to get a quick course to prepare me, but the company that did that went bankrupt/out of business XD) and wholly inadequate to the task. I should not have been there teaching those people. People who are very motivated to learn the language, they give up their time, take free from work, pay nannies to look after their children, to go to a language center where an amateur is teaching them their new language, for 2 hours in the week. 2 fucking hours. They asked me every week if I couldnt give them more hours, even though it probably wouldnt help alot, but they didnt know it ofcourse, because they never had a proper teacher teaching them the language. It's not strange that many of them don't make it to a masters degree, when they arent even properly taught the language. And let's face it, many people actually do learn the language after all, most of them young people obviously, but it's not ideal by any means. And this is now, they didnt do much of this 30 years ago.

[Gendarme]

It shouldn't be about terrorism only, even. If I had to choose between two persons to allow into my country, and all I knew was that one is a muslim and the other is christian, I would choose the christian (some would perhaps alternate or toss a coin to satisfy their political correctness-OCD). The average christian is less radical than the average muslim, and even if they weren't, christian values are more similar to our values. As I've pointed out earlier, I think a lot of us underestimate how radical the average muslim actually is. Here's a graph:

(for source and further reading: Pewforum - muslims, politics, society

Generally, you get more upset when you disagree with one of your own/someone who represents you (for example, if your friend turns out to support that politician you don't like, as opposed to someone in your class). I do not think the muslim terror-groups are a bunch of loners going against everything. They are surely getting moral and financial support from other, seemingly peaceful, muslims. And why aren't the peaceful muslims speaking up against these atrocities as much as others do, when frankly, they should be much more upset?

Importing more muslims when there already are a lot (that might not be the case in USA, though) is a very bad idea. They can just lay low until there are a large enough number of them to start jihad, as it is their duty. Someone being peaceful today, isn't necessarily going to be peaceful tomorrow. Do you think "evil muslims" accidentally all went to Tokyo and London, while the rest of the world are getting peaceful muslims?

[spoiler=Violent muslims in Tokyo][video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Nu9CcEZJQU[/video][/spoiler]
[spoiler=Violent muslims in London][video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8WVkbXOHfM[/video][/spoiler]

And lastly, being allowed into a country where you're not a citizen is a privilege, not a right. The country should be able to take away and give back the privilege to you as they see fit. Globalism and multiculturalism are nothing but evil wet dreams of the puppeteers, portrayed as something good, and adopted by us with PC-OCD (and there are a lot of us).

[91]

If you treat people like garbage the crime rate will obviously increase. It's integration that has failed - not the people themselves. You make it sound easy to study but it's not. You need to learn the language first, and since all immigration facilities are so overloaded a lot of people can't even take the country language courses even if they wanted to. They have to wait. What you get from this is poor people without education or good jobs. Any religion or culture would have an increased crime rate in these areas. It has nothing to do with the fact that they're muslims. Non-muslims are in the exact same situation. It's just that it happens to be a lot of muslims fleeing their homes and being put through this misery right now.

Well, you know, French is the 2nd most used language in Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia. So when Arabs from those countries migrate to French-speaking countries, they don't really have to learn the language.
So, they do have free access to education and there's no language barrier.

Any religion or culture would have an increased crime rate in these areas.

Any proof of that?
There is, on the contrary, lots of proofs that Muslim communities in Europe have produced terrorism and other types of criminality, even when there wasn't any language barrier that would have limited their access to education or jobs.

ok, what are you even saying? It's like me saying there is proof that there are thieves in Chinatown in big cities. We better ban the Chinese right.

Also, is it about religion or country of origin because you're not very clear about it..? It seems to shift between the 2 quite a lot. It started with muslims which is a PRETTY DAMN BIG DIFFERENCE from Arab countries or war zones. Try to stick with one.

[Dolan]

Well it seems culture is a bigger problem for civic integration than "race". So, there are Muslim extremists in some parts of Africa too, where genital mutilation of girls is still a thing (even if it was banned in other Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia).

There is a minority of Christian Arabs (such as the Lebanese one) who were never involved in any violence in the countries where they immigrated. So there does seem to be some kind of aggravation of factors where categories like "Muslim" and "Arab" intersect. Turks are not Arabs either and their story of integration in Germany is also bittersweet (some success, some failure) - most of them are Muslim, though. Iranians are not Arabs either, they are Persian and mostly Shiite Muslims, and they haven't been much involved in violence in Western countries where they immigrated (with the sole exception of that kid from Germany, who actually targeted Turks and Arabs who bullied him).

Needless to say that Buddhists or other Asians who migrated to Western countries don't seem to get involved in criminal activity either.

So multiculturalism may work with the Chinese who mind their own business and work hard to integrate, but may fail with other "races"/cultures which reject any form of internalisation of Western values.

[iNcog]

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[iNcog]

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[Dolan]

Both examples are anecdotal so it could be very well you met the nicest North Africans (those that pursue higher education) and the media publish stuff about the worst.

[deleted_user0]

Lol... now you start about anecdotal XD lmao, half your posts hinge upon anecdotal stuff, not to mention metis, who turns every anecdotal experience of his into canon because hes the fucking simpsons and has done everything. which makes him an expert on everything.

also lets not pretend as if only people with an academic education are good people. please... the level of snobbism is just going through the roof

[Dolan]

The only anecdotal evidence I've mentioned was the optician doctor in Brussels. Everything else is based on what was documented either through the media or statistics.
The Brussels police mentioned in an article that they have evidence that 1 out of each 1000 Muslim in Belgium has enrolled as a fighter in Syria, out of which only a few returned. It's a well-known fact that Mollenbeek was a breeding ground for terrorism for years, and it all goes back to when their mayor was Philippe Moureaux. It's a complicated story, maybe you can look it up, if you have the time.

lets not pretend as if only people with an academic education are good people

Not morally good, what I meant is that usually people who enroll in higher education have higher IQ and so are less likely to be involved in criminal activity.
But of course there is also specific criminality for smarter people (white collar criminality), which is usually less violent.

Just point out which of my posts used anecdotal evidence, there's no need to get so uppity about it.

[Laurence Drake]

People with academic educations have better critical thinking skills, which makes them better equipped to make well-reasoned ethical judgments

[deleted_user0]

Tell that to dr. Eichmann.

[deleted_user0]

Just point out which of my posts used anecdotal evidence, there's no need to get so uppity about it.

shouldnt post out of frustration. sorry