climate change - how to go forward

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Re: climate change - how to go forward

Post by momuuu »

The question is how rapid and irrevertable climate change is. Depending on the answer you can argue for a smooth transition to green energy or a more rapid, economically financed one, or an even faster one incorporating the nuclear fission step.

At some point we must gain the ability to do nuclear fusion surely, which would probably solve most of our problems for a few hundred years, maybe even more. At some point we run out of fossil fuels, so the transition to sustainable energy and a sustainable environment needs to be made anyways. If theres even a chance of disaster due to global warming (while the data is not entirely conclusive, it is shortsighted to deny the possibility) then its much smarter to start the energy transition today and not when its too late.
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Re: climate change - how to go forward

Post by martinspjuth »

Imo the first step is to get the majority to agree on that we are the cause of the climate changes (if not only us, so that we are part of it atleast), that we have to do something about it, and then what to do about it.

It will always be hard to work against climate changes as long as it isn't a commonly accepted issue, and that it should be prioritized.

I'm not sure myself how much effect we actually have on the enviroment and climate changes, the warmer climate could be mainly from natural occuring warm-cold cycles. I do however believe that we have at least a part in this climate changes, just hard to say how big.

One of the most important things when working for environmental friendly way of life, is more advanced technology, devided into two major categories: better energy producer; more energy-efficient tools.

In the energy producer category i'm quite interested in the fusion reactor possibility. Making use of the energy in tides and waves of the oceans also seem quite interesting.

For more energy efficient tools i think electric cars and new ways to build/produce stuff are quite interesting.

Another thing that needs to be worked on is recycling, this includes reusing used stuff, make use of the surplus materials that are produced (for example natural gas when extracting oil), reuse the materials (for example melt down steel and make new steel products) and also energy recycling (for example you burn used products to produce power). Many parts of the world are very bad at this.

The more advanced countries in the world need to help the poorer countries with technology, so they don't have to do the same misstake we did years ago.

Politicians need to actually work for a better enviroment, not only work for making it look like they are working for a better enviroment.

Lastly, if it gets as bad as this:
iwillspankyou wrote:Imagine 10 or 100 times the weather catastrophes we addressed this year - imagine we cannot longer grow crops cos its all "gone by the wind". Imagine all coast cities are flooded with 100 times the magnitude of Cathrina to Louisiana!

Then there are no need to worry about fixing climate changes any more. The disasters will have killed enough people and destroyed enough infrastructure that the mere reduced population will add to a decrease in greenhouse gases. :hmm:
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Re: climate change - how to go forward

Post by momuuu »

I think solar energy is the most promising one. Household solar panels dont pressure the energy grid as much, allowing for a smooth energy transition. Wind energy is also relatively cheap right now. Stuff like using the tides as an energy source is surely possible, but solar/wind energy are cheaper it seems.

Fun fact btw, large windmill parks locally cause an increase in temperature due to extra friction.
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Re: climate change - how to go forward

Post by spanky4ever »

Jerom wrote:I think solar energy is the most promising one. Household solar panels dont pressure the energy grid as much, allowing for a smooth energy transition. Wind energy is also relatively cheap right now. Stuff like using the tides as an energy source is surely possible, but solar/wind energy are cheaper it seems.

Fun fact btw, large windmill parks locally cause an increase in temperature due to extra friction.

I have heard you time and again - the problem is that its a step of the way - but not sufficient! you should seriously take a look at what is needed in the future - when 2 billions of ppl also want electical light and electic to make their food! 2 billions of ppl on earth dont have that opertunety now - BUT they will demand it in the near furure! This is what we are looking forward to. If you think this is a cero point in time - think again! We will need much more energy going forward - AND where is it coming from? THAT is the question my friend @Jerom
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Re: climate change - how to go forward

Post by JakeyBoyTH »

Metis wrote:
iwillspankyou wrote:Imagine 10 or 100 times the weather catastrophes we addressed this year - imagine we cannot longer grow crops cos its all "gone by the wind". Imagine all coast cities are flooded with 100 times the magnitude of Cathrina to Louisiana!


I think that you may be watching too many disaster movies.


I think you are not realizing the seriousness of sea level rise. As I stated before a rise by only 4m will be a major catastrophe for many pacific countries. Surely you would not be telling the world just to "move to a higher place" rather than actually stop global warming by improving out energy sources.
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Re: climate change - how to go forward

Post by Laurence Drake »

Goodspeed wrote:
Gendarme wrote:The climate will be the same regardless of what we do,
Seriously?

Gendarme has clearly never been to New Delhi. Or seen pictures of it. Or heard about it anywhere.
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Re: climate change - how to go forward

Post by martinspjuth »

Jerom wrote:I think solar energy is the most promising one. Household solar panels dont pressure the energy grid as much, allowing for a smooth energy transition. Wind energy is also relatively cheap right now. Stuff like using the tides as an energy source is surely possible, but solar/wind energy are cheaper it seems.

Fun fact btw, large windmill parks locally cause an increase in temperature due to extra friction.


I agree solar energy is very promising. Up to recently, the energy it took to make solar panels was higher then the energy those panels produced during their life time. Now however, that's no longer the case, but it is still far from producing electricity on a level where it can seriously compete with coal/nuclear reactors or water power. If we can continue to advance the technology here, it can most certainly be the answer, or one of the answers.

I'm not that fond of wind power. Imo the cost of wind turbines are still quite large, and it takes forever for them to pay for themself. They also need lots of maintainance and need certain weather conditions to work. Wind turbines also takes lot of space.

Ye, using waves and tides as an energy source is a pretty new concept. Could be a very reliable source of energy if you got it to work, the tides come regulary and there are certainly lots energy in all that moving water.
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Re: climate change - how to go forward

Post by n0el »

I thought about seriously replying to this thread and remembered it's pointless because people like Metis will cherry pick facts that support their argument and then simulateously ignore everyone else's.
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Re: climate change - how to go forward

Post by AOEisLOVE_AOEisLIFE »

n0el wrote:I thought about seriously replying to this thread and remembered it's pointless because people like Metis will cherry pick facts that support their argument and then simulateously ignore everyone else's.


because everybody thinks he is teh smartest anyway about everything and his opinion is gold and he/she has to convince all other ppls of the universe with long texts in random internet forums :P

Coming up next: 12 pages off random stuff i copy & pasted from somewhere why the earth is actually flat but also the earth is hollow and there is a second earth inside the earth where an advanced human species lives and they are the guys who designed UFOs for hitler.
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Re: climate change - how to go forward

Post by Metis »

Jerom wrote:I think solar energy is the most promising one.


Solar power is beginning to look like an economically viable alternative to many companies, what with the decreasing cost of photovoltaic panels and other solar-power technologies being refined. However, not all countries have areas where there is a combination of lands available with little or no population to be displaced, no threatened or endangered species to worry about, and sufficient sunshine year-round.

Then, there is the problem of transmission. For example, if most of America's power were to be generated, say, in Arizona, the transmission lines would have to be made many times thicker and heavier to get the energy from that far corner of the country up to, say Maine. Disseminated individual power units built on existing structures would solve some of these problems but here you are running into much lower efficiency and, thus, higher costs per kilowatt-hour produced.

Once again, it's all about economics. Currently the US has enough cheap coal and gas to fire power plants for well over a century. Until those reserves are economically depleted, alternative methods of power production will remain less used. Right now the US produces about 10% of its energy needs from renewable resources, which is actually second in the world in total production behind China, whose huge hydroelectric projects have put it far ahead of everyone else. Sustainable energy production doesn't necessarily mean that the resource is non-polluting or "environmentally-friendly, though. I've worked on mitigation projects dealing with hydroelectric dams and can tell you that thousands of man-hours and millions of dollars are spent each year to help counter the effects of those dams on the biota.
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Re: climate change - how to go forward

Post by deleted_user »

Go go nuclear!

I'm actually finding myself agreeing heavily with Metis's s̶t̶a̶t̶e̶m̶e̶n̶t̶s̶ last statement. TIL he's also worked on several hydroelectric dams.

Efforts spent on improving the ecological effect of dams are being looked into, true, though there aren't really many effective ones; at least that's what I discerned from a few persuasive pieces I researched for a 5 minute presentation on the sustainability of dams for class. Global biodiversity is diminishing at an unseemly fast rate, though that's another topic.

It doesn't seem efforts toward renewable energy will be made outside of legislature created with that purpose in mind until fossil fuels become uneconomical. And legislature like that is less likely to come from the US in the next four years, and in turn, will demotivate other countries from similar renewable energy deals as it puts them in a temporary economic disadvantage against the US. At least this is my general understanding of it.

Global warming is a thing though, carbon levels are at an unprecented high, and it will cause more extreme weather patterns and natural disasters.

You combat it by not electing presidents like Trump and instead passing global legislature to combat climate change.

This was my number one issue in the election and it got zero fucking talking time. Republicans don't give two shits about climate regulations and it seems to me, at this point, that's gross negligence. Only my boy Bernie mentioned it as the largest issue facing us in the future.
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Re: climate change - how to go forward

Post by deleted_user »

n0el wrote:I thought about seriously replying to this thread and remembered it's pointless because people like Metis will cherry pick facts that support their argument and then simulateously ignore everyone else's.


>literally basing his opinion off of one anomaly and ignoring the other gargantuan tons of evidence.
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Re: climate change - how to go forward

Post by Metis »

deleted_user wrote:basing his opinion off of one anomaly and ignoring the other gargantuan tons of evidence.


And what opinion is that? I taught environmental science and ecology in college and know a good deal more about it than anyone here. I'm merely stating the facts.

1. There is much more to the issue of climate change than most people, including most so-called "environmentalists" understand or care to take the time to learn about.
2. Human actions affect climate change, as do the actions of all living things in general, but humans are not the only cause of climate change.
3. CO2, methane, water vapor and other greenhouse gasses are released into the atmosphere in more ways than through fossil fuel use.
4. People are not going to quit using fossil fuels until they are economically depleted or alternative sources of energy are at least close to parity. Also, alternative energy sources come with their own environmental problems.
5. You cannot successfully legislate to lower carbon emissions, etc. if said legislation significantly raises prices or otherwise inconveniences the populace because you will be voted out of office and replaced by someone else. If you want people to use alternative energy then what you need to do is to give people incentives, not sanctions.
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Re: climate change - how to go forward

Post by deleted_user »

Metis wrote:
deleted_user wrote:basing his opinion off of one anomaly and ignoring the other gargantuan tons of evidence.


And what opinion is that? I taught environmental science and ecology in college and know a good deal more about it than anyone here. I'm merely stating the facts.

1. There is much more to the issue of climate change than most people, including most so-called "environmentalists" understand or care to take the time to learn about.
2. Human actions affect climate change, as do the actions of all living things in general, but humans are not the only cause of climate change.
3. CO2, methane, water vapor and other greenhouse gasses are released into the atmosphere in more ways than through fossil fuel use.
4. People are not going to quit using fossil fuels until they are economically depleted or alternative sources of energy are in parity. Also, alternative energy sources come with their own environmental problems.
5. You cannot legislate to lower carbon emissions if said legislation significantly raises prices or otherwise inconveniences the populace because you will be voted out of office and replaced by someone who gives the hoi polloi what they want. If you want people to use alternative energy then what you need to do is to give people incentives, not sanctions.


I'm out-gunned in every way. It was silly of me to even participate in such a thread, anyway, without the mentality needed to prepare an actual scientific rebuttal. It's just a lot of work.
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Re: climate change - how to go forward

Post by spanky4ever »

JakeyBoyTH wrote:
Metis wrote:Just because a chunk of an ice sheet breaks off doesn't mean that it is going to melt instantly. Ice sheets calve ice into the ocean all the time. In fact, the more snowfall and ice that accumulates the greater the rate of calving. There is still a net increase in ice accumulation in Antarctica.

an increase in Antarctic snow accumulation that began 10,000 years ago is currently adding enough ice to the continent to outweigh the increased losses from its thinning glaciers.


https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/na ... han-losses


Ice accumulation does not mean it is not melting. Different areas need different levels of ice. Glaciers are extremely important for the environment.


I have looked in to your statment "Antarctic snow accumulating" for over 10.000 years.
Here is a video that will explain it (I think)? And its not good news :shock:
[video]https://youtu.be/Bm3_sX_obmQ[/video]

I would hope this thread could be about what we are facing going forward, and what is the smart way to deal with it :!: If global warming is happening or not, Is not the issue anymore - ITS A FACT, that only republicans with their head up in their asses are trying to "sell" to the public! (while getting those good greasy Kock money).
At this point its a waste of my time, and many other who have posted here, to deny climate change, and that is the result of putting all that carbon in to the atmosphere since the 1950s.
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Re: climate change - how to go forward

Post by spanky4ever »

btw @metis I also found this video from the same page you where referring to in your post, saying Antarctic Ice levels are increasing! Seriously Metis, why not post the whole story :?: :?: - instread of picking something that might fit your worldview, when 99% of the page you are referring to, say the opesit :!: Imo you are using that date to make silly arguments - and its ruining any chance of an honest discussion
[video]https://youtu.be/oPd-Pfl81Go[/video]

NOW, can we get on to a honest discussion, PLS :?: :?:

Btw; its not only the Arctic that is melting, Glaciers in Norway and many other countries with glaciers, are experiencing that the glaciers are melting very fast!
Here is a video from Iceland if your interested: https://youtu.be/Ez-PgCqLZ20
And Himalaya: https://youtu.be/hPa_m5qNF6s
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Re: climate change - how to go forward

Post by Metis »

@iwillspankyou

I explained why I thought that the Antarctic ice was increasing and that it was because of global warming. I also linked two original data sources from NASA, rather than a YouTube video. However, I could say that ice is frozen water and you would decry prejudice on my part because you, like most other here, just seem to be on an anti-Metis kick. I think it's time I left this forum and found a more intellectual one with educated people.
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Re: climate change - how to go forward

Post by spanky4ever »

Metis wrote:@iwillspankyou

I explained why I thought that the Antarctic ice was increasing and that it was because of global warming. I also linked two original data sources from NASA, rather than a YouTube video. However, I could say that ice is frozen water and you would decry prejudice on my part because you, like most other here, just seem to be on an anti-Metis kick. I think it's time I left this forum and found a more intellectual one with educated people.


Could B i misread your post? It seemed to me to be an "anti - warming" . Take a look at your post again! Sorry if I got you wrong. When that is said, I would like you to participate! why the hell would i address my most to you other vice :?:

you also posted this:
Speaking of sea level increases, even if the ice melts and sea levels rise, the doomsayers usually fail to mention that this will occur over several thousand years, thus giving humans plenty of time to adapt.
That would be a false on IMO! seriously false :shock: :shock:

The question I raised when making this thread - Is what can we do - going forward? And my suggestion was to make some serious research into the molten salt reactor - using nuclear waste and Thorium - cold last us for 1000s of years.
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Re: climate change - how to go forward

Post by Gendarme »

@Metis You do not need to engage in a discussion with everyone everytime. If a post is not worth replying to, just ignore it, even if the post is directed towards you. Generally, the point is to have discussions - not debates. If the other person is not ready for a discussion, I highly suggest aborting mission.
Pay more attention to detail.
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Re: climate change - how to go forward

Post by martinspjuth »

Metis wrote:
deleted_user wrote:basing his opinion off of one anomaly and ignoring the other gargantuan tons of evidence.


And what opinion is that? I taught environmental science and ecology in college and know a good deal more about it than anyone here. I'm merely stating the facts.
You can impossibly know that there isn't anyone on this forum that doesn't have more knowledge on the subject than you. You are also stating facts (some really interesting one with good sources), but they are still not the only facts

1. There is much more to the issue of climate change than most people, including most so-called "environmentalists" understand or care to take the time to learn about.
True, and you are one of them (even if you might know more than the average person). And it isn't only "enviromentalists" that lack knowledge, it is people from the opposition too
2. Human actions affect climate change, as do the actions of all living things in general, but humans are not the only cause of climate change.
True, but they are a part of the cause
3. CO2, methane, water vapor and other greenhouse gasses are released into the atmosphere in more ways than through fossil fuel use.
True, but fossil fuel is a major contributor to the increase
4. People are not going to quit using fossil fuels until they are economically depleted or alternative sources of energy are at least close to parity. Also, alternative energy sources come with their own environmental problems.
True, and that is what was ment to be discused here i believe
5. You cannot successfully legislate to lower carbon emissions, etc. if said legislation significantly raises prices or otherwise inconveniences the populace because you will be voted out of office and replaced by someone else. If you want people to use alternative energy then what you need to do is to give people incentives, not sanctions.
Right again, and if i understood the OP right, how to give people those incertives is what was ment to be discused here


Also in your first post you choose to adress the subject where many people may have been wrong (that ice is actually increasing, not decreasing). And even tho the fact that the ice actually is increasing is both interesting and important, it is still only a part of the climate change problem. To me it seems like you choose to pick up every argument you can, that point towards that climate change is exaggerated.

Now, don't get me wrong, I agree on many of your points, I just think you misunderstood the meaning of this thread and also that you are a bit biased when choosing what facts to present. Also, don't leave the forums, it is a rare treat to have someone stating facts and backing them up with so good sources :biggrin:
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Re: climate change - how to go forward

Post by spanky4ever »

@martinspjuth do you have any suggestions of the "way forward" ?
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Re: climate change - how to go forward

Post by JakeyBoyTH »

Metis wrote:@iwillspankyou

I explained why I thought that the Antarctic ice was increasing and that it was because of global warming. I also linked two original data sources from NASA, rather than a YouTube video. However, I could say that ice is frozen water and you would decry prejudice on my part because you, like most other here, just seem to be on an anti-Metis kick. I think it's time I left this forum and found a more intellectual one with educated people.


I don't have a n anti-metis kick. If often agree with your view, but in this case you are stating facts simply in the wrong place for the subject. I do get the wrong end of the stick a lot, but I am not anti-metis. Don't have such a condescending view on this matter, no one is ever simply right. Sorry to be so frank, but you have also been quite frank yourself.
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Re: climate change - how to go forward

Post by Goodspeed »

On topic the way forward is probably nuclear for now and relying on very rich people and companies to lead the transition to solar. The conflicts of interest seem too much of an issue for governments to lead that effort, at least for now.
But the last time I actually researched this was for a school project like 12 years ago so I'm not up to date about the intricacies of this issue.
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Re: climate change - how to go forward

Post by Kiforishin »

Lmao climate change. Everybody always talks about solar energy and electric cars. Funny how climate change fanatics forget to ever mention the number one contributor to climate change. Agriculture is what you should be taking about, specifically factory farming. A cows fart is approx 23 times more harmful then the Co2 that comes out of your car. Now think about this, 1 Cow produces about 70-120kgs of methane every year, theirs aproxx 1.5 BILLION cows/bulls in the world. And that's not all, plus all the deforestation just to fead all of em....I can go on. Now go on any major green energy or pro environment website and you won't find any of them taking about this, why? Because it's all about the money, if they even dare to mention it Monsanto is gonna have them hanging by their nuts.
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Re: climate change - how to go forward

Post by Goodspeed »

Yeah I read about that, strange that it's getting so little attention. It's hard to blame the lobby as the fossil fuel lobby is as if not more convincing I'm sure. Might just come down to this coming to light relatively recently, that is the fact that it's a bigger factor than previously thought.
Energy though is a bigger problem in that we need or will need it for literally everything and will need substantially more of it in the (near) future.

Inb4 artificial meat.

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