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United States of America musketeer925
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27 Oct 2017, 15:42

Darwin_ wrote:Yeah @EAGLEMUT @musketeer925 I absolutely love what the devs have done, stuff like the recorded game comparability tool and the upcoming network hook look incredibly cool. I think I speak for almost everyone that has had negative comments that our problems with the patch have nothing to do with the amazing work that you guys have done.

Yeah absolutely, I appreciate that. But the balance changes for the patch and the developed tools ultimately go hand-in-hand and I am interested in seeing the patch be successful on both counts.
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Netherlands Jerom
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27 Oct 2017, 15:54

musketeer925 wrote:
Jerom wrote:I think the primairy reason the discussion is not constructive anymore is because it was constructive in another thread where it seemed the changes had underwhelming support and the arguments presented in favor of them might have appeared a bit elusive/absent to some.

Even so, resorting to personal attacks isn't the solution to this problem.

If it seems like there was constructive discussion that was ignored, my guess is that falls in the disconnect between the discussion threads and the developers who are actually implementing the changes. There tends to be a few people in between those involved in those discussions and developers, and then because we end up trying to a release right before tournaments (which I dislike), there isn't enough time for the people who make up that bridge to fully consider suggestions and incorporate them into actual changes.

For the most part, I think there are two major problems with the patch release cycle:
1) The tendency to release changes right before a tournament. This results in a hard deadline for release and rushed changes. I think this has grown out of the desire to release new maps prior to tournaments (which I don't think is entirely a bad thing) ended up coupled balance changes to prior to tournaments (which I do think is bad).
2) Not opening up the team's proposed changes to community discussion early enough. I don't see any reason for changes to stay a secret that no one gets to know about until shortly before release. This time and time again has resulted in ~2 weeks prior to release some changes getting into public discussion, big at least partly constructive discussions happening, and not enough time to incorporate constructive criticism into a real patch prior to release due to problem #1.

Constructive criticism and analysis of why things have gone the way they did are much more helpful to the community than a first reply to the post like:
Join me in not updating to 4.0!

There's no point in constructive criticism. I don't believe community feedback matters jackshit to the patch team atm. They make a big design change without actually consulting the community and when it is announced and the reception does seem very negative it is seemingly ignored. What do you want me to say? I detest this change, it's the worst change in the entire patch in my eyes. Isn't the only 'constructive' option left to try to convince people to play on a patch version that I consider vastly superior? Remaining silent or not doing anything is not going to get something done, is it?

PS I do appreciate what the developers and map makers have done for the game and I also mostly appreciate EP as a whole. I just don't appreciate it when this becomes a gameplay patch because I don't seem to agree with the vision of the people in charge at all and they don't seem to actually consult the entire community.

"When life give you incompetence, participate in the betting" - Jerom, winner of autumn betting, 2016
"but wer eyiu playig a gainst someone as magnificent as jerom? thats wha ti thogutb jerom is a beaaitful human being"- Mr_Bramboy
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United States of America Hidddy_
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27 Oct 2017, 16:22

Wow the new network hook feature sounds incredible, the exact thing we need with everyone saying that EP is empty and they don't ever play it, now itll be much easier to get games.

On a side note, people spend less time playing EP than they do complaining about the balance. Just play the game and give feedback but also be respectful as people are putting in hard work and time. Don't see what's so hard about that...
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United States of America n0el
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27 Oct 2017, 16:23

The problem is everyone has a personal opinion on strengths and weaknesses. Without putting the changes in play and making direct observation it is all pointless speculation.
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Netherlands Jerom
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27 Oct 2017, 16:26

n0el wrote:The problem is everyone has a personal opinion on strengths and weaknesses. Without putting the changes in play and making direct observation it is all pointless speculation.

You're not making a balance change though.

"When life give you incompetence, participate in the betting" - Jerom, winner of autumn betting, 2016
"but wer eyiu playig a gainst someone as magnificent as jerom? thats wha ti thogutb jerom is a beaaitful human being"- Mr_Bramboy
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Norway iwillspankyou
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27 Oct 2017, 16:27

Hidddy_ wrote:On a side note, people spend less time playing EP than they do complaining about the balance. Just play the game and give feedback but also be respectful as people are putting in hard work and time. Don't see what's so hard about that...


Actually I have been playing EP a lot lately - but only comp - cos there is nobody there EVER, on my level :o I enjoy the maps, think they are great fun :kinggreen:
Looking forward to try the new maps :love: and it will be even more rewarding to watch the tournament when I know them first hand.

Also looking forward to try the new Sioux changes! The wakina could end up being very fast, if you join them together with Warchief, and send the card that gives them even more speed :uglylol:
Hippocrits are the worst of animals. I love elifants.
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United States of America Cometk
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27 Oct 2017, 16:29

i'm wary of a lot of the changes, especially the german one, but the patch has added so much that i am very excited to play it and begin testing things!
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Sweden Gendarme
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27 Oct 2017, 16:33

I enjoyed reading the interviews with Durokan, Garja, and Riki very much. Lovely job!
duck wrote:man it really sucks when you have to agree with gendarme on things
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Netherlands Jerom
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27 Oct 2017, 16:36

The patch time is three times wrong imo with the sepoy change. they are wrong in claiming that "India being primarily an “early pressure” civ is the symptom" that needs to be treated. Even if they were right about that, they're wrong in the analysis that India is one dimensional at all. Neither in terms of strategies being used, or in terms of army compositions is india one dimensional (I've gone into details a few times already, which you've all conveniently ignored). And even if they were also right about India being one dimensional, yjr proposed change doesn't fix things and limits them even more, and probably just ruins the civ. This is what this change feels likr to me: The patch team likes eco games, likes being greedy, so wants to change all civs that can't be played like that. Sioux had to get rid of their bow riders, Otto was supposed to go Abus Cav archer in age 3, Spain needs an eco option in age 3 so they play eco instead of the standard FF, Russia needed to be buffed in fortress (20 strelets PogChamp), Iro had to become a fortress civ, TPs cannot ever be nerfed and now india is not allowed to rush anymore.

Let me start out by the first error in thought: Early pressure civs are not a bad thing. I've already written a big postabout why it's not bad to have a civ that is primarily an early pressure civ. To expand on it, there is nothing more beautiful, in my opinion at least, to have a match up that has a clear aggressor vs a clear defender. Theres already very few aggressive civs (honestly just india, russia, otto and aztec at the moment) so the few civs that can be aggressive should be cherished, or you lose a big part of the game. On the other hand, theres many civs that want to play in the midgame and scale like France, Germany, Japan, China, Dutch, Portuguese and British and some civs that tend to go along in the midgame play like Sioux and Iro. Why is it ever right to decide rushing is bad for the game while scaling is good? The beauty is the variety of match ups, and like I already said, india fills a core role in the current meta. Slow sepoy rush and consulate rush are strategies that no other civ can perform, those styles are some of the most unique styles of play in this game. Why does this need to be removed? There are endless match ups where you can play towards the midgame and then try to have the bigger army in the one deciding fight. Theres only a handful of match ups where you can play against a musketeer based rush that deals well with town center fire. Let me rephrase that, theres only about 10 match ups in the entire game where this style is a thing, and those are 10 of india's 14 match ups (imo, some more match ups might actually not even be that sepoy rush based but that'll be discussed in the next paragraph). We already frequently hear complaints, and rightfully so in my opinion, that the esoc patch with the lovely maps has a meta heavily tilted towards setting up yourself for the midgame, basically playing no rush 10. You're proposing to worsen that problem, to actually limit the diversity in the game. And yes, maybe a civ is a bit boring if it's extremely one dimensional, but removing a very unique style of play entirely (and please dont tell me you can slow sepoy rush with 180 hp sepoys because that is utter bullshit) is just limiting the meta. Aoe3 does not have extremely diverse civs, and it doesn't need to have those because it has a lot of civs. Ideally all 196 match ups are somewhat unique, and in any case India as it is right now greatly contributes towards the diversity in these 196 match ups. Don't change that, don't ruin the game because you don't like rush civs.

And then, like I said, even if a civ being an early pressure civ, a somewhat one dimensional civ is a symptom that needs to be treated, the team is entirely wrong in labeling india this at all. The primary argument for calling india one dimensional was that all tournament games that the team remembered involved india sepoy rushing. WickedCossack has done a great job in showing that this argument is utter bullshit and should simply be discarded, labeled as incorrect. I've also written a pretty elaborate post and also this post explaining why india is not one dimensional at all. Just look at all the match ups I mentioned where india is not a one dimensional sepoy rushing civ at all. As I said the first part where this analysis is wrong is that India's rushes are actually really varied, split up in 3 entirely different build orders which is already a lot of variety for an average aoe civ (compare this to germany, france, aztec, russia, spain or ports for example). Like I already said in the post I linked, a slow sepoy rush is close to an eco build order really, it's hardly a rush, it's just making a few sepoy to harass the opponent and keep him from being greedy, to then go into woodtrickle/600w/300e yourself. For example, against british a sepoy rush into a boom is quite commonly considered to be the best option for india, where india ends up actually defending against a big push from the british player. In the german match up, I think it's the norm to sepoy rush, then mass up a bit and then try to hit a timing when germany goes for the age up with some sowars. Against dutch I think going for a slow sepoy rush followed up by 4 sowar, or honestly even going for a 10/10 might be the best way about it, and I do feel anything less aggressive or a consulate rush is much less efficient. Thats just the slow sepoy rush variety, there also is the consulate rush, which is a go for the throat rush, a very hard timing push, an entirely different beast altogether. And then we're actually not even mentioning that they have 4 match ups where sepoy rushes are not even a thing in aztec, otto, russia and the mirror. So I think it can be stated as a fact that India is much more than a rush only civ, and this is backed up by the way they have been played in tournament games. So I think you're forced to discard this opinion.

Then you're left with the argument that India makes too many sepoys, that they don't make gurka/zambs/sowars because sepoys are OP, but also this is factually incorrect. There are actually very few match ups where I think you can get away with making only sepoys, and the ones where that would be possible at all are match ups where you actually consulate rush. Think about the match up vs british, that one civ with a weakness to musketeers. Even in that match up india mixes Gurka and Sowars (refer for example to H2O vs BSOP spring finals game 9). Think about India vs Russia, in this match up you are actually supposed to transition into Gurka Zamb. Look at these games: https://youtu.be/l_4YyiCW9GE?t=30m22s (three varied back to back india games) where in the first India vs Russia I'm staying on sepoy and getting rekt, and then in the second India vs russia get tipped by ryan to go into gurka zamb and end up winning. Consider India vs Germany, where pure sepoy isn't going to cut it anymore once germany gets access to skirmishers. Consider Sommpu playing India vs Mitoe's ports, where he does rush but actually quickly ends up mixing in gurka and shipping sowar. Consider india vs Dutch where you want to add gurkas and sowars after the initial push to deal with their skirmishers efficiently, consider aztec where you shouldn't make many sepoy at all, consider the india mirror that revolves mostly around gurka zamb. It seems like you would need to provide a evidence that india mostly makes sepoys at this point, because my experience, all tournament games I have watched and the opinions of good players on how to play India do not back up the statement that you need to make pure sepoy in a majority of match ups.

And then even if the team is right about both having to nerf rush civs and India being one dimensional, then the change proposed is terrible. The reason why india plays the way they play is apperantly a complete mystery to the team, because it seems to be completely wrong about it. India has to sepoy rush, has to slow down civs because they are unable to compete with fortress age play. Not because they lack punch overall, they're actually the best colonial civ by quite the margin, trumping British and Russia and they have a magnificent defensive boom, imo the best in the game. No, the real reason they can't compete with fortress age play is because their own FF is too slow. You can't do a hussar type semi FF (which is the best way to semi ff clearly, since thats what all civs that can do it prefer to do) because sowars suck in cav vs cav wars and your best age 2 wonder if by far the agra fort (karni mata is very vulnerable and the agra fort map control is one of india's biggest strengths) so you don't actually get a stable. You then age up awefully slowly, to then have to spend a lot of resources on 3! veteran upgrades (and whats sad is that you have to make a barracks beside your agra fort because the agra fort cant upgrade units). After you've done all of that, you're left being completely and utterly outscaled in every regard. Shaving 30 wood of off houses isn't going to make up for this. You're going to save a magnificent ~150 wood with a tiny bit of snowball potential (you need a whopping 30w less in age 1, PogChamp) at the point where you reach age 3. India's eco style right now is in no way capable of dealing with a good semi ff, it's quite honestly not even close. This change is insignificant, at best it's like making gurka auto upgrade. It's a tiny buff to the defensive india boom, but that's already really strong against civs like russia, so that buff is absolutely not needed. India does not actually lack overall punch like I already said. Meanwhile you're nerfing one of the main tools that india has to compete with these semi FFs and greedy civs. The slow sepoy rush is a very interesting and interactive build order. You make only a handful of sepoy to keep your opponent true and then you actually do transition into economic play. It's very common to go 5 sepoy - 600w/large trickle - 300e, probably the most common build order for india. You're removing this style and replacing it with the same but weaker and more passive, less interactive. If theres one thing I agree with, its that it'd be nice for India to have an economic option from time to time. It'd be nice if going age 3 is at least almost viable. But the way to make that happen is to buff that specific part of india. The other aspects of india, slow sepoy rush, consulate rush and defensive boom, are completely fine, they don't need more overall punch, they could use a buff in a specific area. And if you think that's overbuffing india, that india having extra options across the field makes them stronger, I'd agree that it does make them stronger but I think that's not even misplaced. Funnily enough I think your proposed changes do not affect the only true all in india style, the consulate rush, because with the consulate rush you get the british consulate which makes sepoy being 3 shot by the TC again and I think thats one of the tightest build orders in the game where the cheaper houses actually matter a lot. So the proposed changes actually just remove a core style of india, buff a style thats already situationally very strong (defensive boom) and won't do enough to make india better against semi FF play. You'd make india a much more varied civ if you leave sepoy untouched, or at least their hp untouched, and buff something so that they can compete with a semi FF (ranging from karni mata buffs, howdah being a viable auto veteran unit, gurka getting veteran automatically, even zamburaks having an age 2 multiplier against artillery would allow them to stay age 2 and defend the agra fort with those).

And then lastly, I want to critize the idea that sepoy should be nerfed simply because they're abnormally strong. It's ridiculous to look at a unit in a vacuum like that. 3 CDB should be nerfed because its an objectively OP shipment in a vacuum, it's objectively OP that asian civs can make villagers in transition, if considered in a vacuum. 2 SW is a ridiculous shipment that should be nerfed, its, in a vacuum, ridiculously OP that ports get a free TC. And then even look at what somppu posted; their stats are hardly that abnormal.

Overall, I think this change is wrong in every regard. This change would be the most ridiculous change in the patch, it feels like its just the team pushing eco play because they like eco play. The problem is, I don't.

PS: I already posted this but I don't want it to seem like I'm just being negative for the sake of being negative. I'm being negative because I already had a long discussion and to me it feels like my opinion is being ignored. This is the constructive post that you apperantly have to make before you are allowed to voice a negative opinion. If your favorite playstyle and second favorite civ is being destroyed with no solid logic supplied and no answers given when you do challenge the change then it's not weird that you're not going to play this patch, is it?

"When life give you incompetence, participate in the betting" - Jerom, winner of autumn betting, 2016
"but wer eyiu playig a gainst someone as magnificent as jerom? thats wha ti thogutb jerom is a beaaitful human being"- Mr_Bramboy
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Netherlands Jerom
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27 Oct 2017, 16:37

Also maybe next time it's better to split these announcements because I can see how discussion over balance changes, which might be inevitable, makes it seem like people arent happy about other parts of the work done.

"When life give you incompetence, participate in the betting" - Jerom, winner of autumn betting, 2016
"but wer eyiu playig a gainst someone as magnificent as jerom? thats wha ti thogutb jerom is a beaaitful human being"- Mr_Bramboy
Germany lordraphael
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27 Oct 2017, 16:42

sompuu just had a game where he made nothing but sepoys and a few mahouts. vs iro the civ with the strongest skirm in the game i might add.
breeze wrote:they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
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27 Oct 2017, 16:47

lordraphael wrote:sompuu just had a game where he made nothing but sepoys and a few mahouts. vs iro the civ with the strongest skirm in the game i might add.

Final fight I had like 80 sepoys/musks with all upgrades so that equals 100 musks... I outmassed and mahouts finished. And I gathered +50% more. Same logic one could argue brit musks are op.
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Netherlands Jerom
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27 Oct 2017, 17:22

somppukunkku wrote:
lordraphael wrote:sompuu just had a game where he made nothing but sepoys and a few mahouts. vs iro the civ with the strongest skirm in the game i might add.

Final fight I had like 80 sepoys/musks with all upgrades so that equals 100 musks... I outmassed and mahouts finished. And I gathered +50% more. Same logic one could argue brit musks are op.

logic is stupid

"When life give you incompetence, participate in the betting" - Jerom, winner of autumn betting, 2016
"but wer eyiu playig a gainst someone as magnificent as jerom? thats wha ti thogutb jerom is a beaaitful human being"- Mr_Bramboy
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27 Oct 2017, 17:30

The patch time is three times wrong imo with the sepoy change
. @Jerom get over it, its just a tiny little change, and the cost of wood for housing is only 50 wood. Would bet that in sum is a real Buff to India. You spent hours crying like a baby for a 5% nerf to a unit that was way to over powered. When a civ can just make one unit, and right click to the other players townsenter (in many MUs) even you should recognize that a change are OK and expected if you want "balanced civs" shhhhh :devil:
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Brazil lemmings121
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27 Oct 2017, 17:31

Jerom wrote:logic is stupid


sudmakmak was right
esoc no logic, nerf japan buf china
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27 Oct 2017, 17:31

iwillspankyou wrote:
The patch time is three times wrong imo with the sepoy change. @Jerom get over it, its just a tiny little change, and the cost of wood for housing is only 50 wood. Would bet that in sum is a real Buff to India. You spent hours crying like a baby for a 5% nerf to a unit that was way to over powered. When I civ can just make one unit, and right click to the other players townsenter (in many MUs) even you should recognize that a change are OK and expected if you want "balanced civs" shhhhh :devil:

I don't usually refer to ranking but you're literally a corporal telling me I'm stupid.

"When life give you incompetence, participate in the betting" - Jerom, winner of autumn betting, 2016
"but wer eyiu playig a gainst someone as magnificent as jerom? thats wha ti thogutb jerom is a beaaitful human being"- Mr_Bramboy
Germany lordraphael
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27 Oct 2017, 17:33

Jerom wrote:
iwillspankyou wrote:
The patch time is three times wrong imo with the sepoy change. @Jerom get over it, its just a tiny little change, and the cost of wood for housing is only 50 wood. Would bet that in sum is a real Buff to India. You spent hours crying like a baby for a 5% nerf to a unit that was way to over powered. When I civ can just make one unit, and right click to the other players townsenter (in many MUs) even you should recognize that a change are OK and expected if you want "balanced civs" shhhhh :devil:

I don't usually refer to ranking but you're literally a corporal telling me I'm stupid.

is it okay if i refer to the ranking and call you stupid ? She just been summarizing what youve been doign for the past days on this forum.
breeze wrote:they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
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27 Oct 2017, 17:34

Yes that's okay. If you know so much better I'm sure you'll find plenty of things to pick apart in that big post I made.

"When life give you incompetence, participate in the betting" - Jerom, winner of autumn betting, 2016
"but wer eyiu playig a gainst someone as magnificent as jerom? thats wha ti thogutb jerom is a beaaitful human being"- Mr_Bramboy
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27 Oct 2017, 17:41

Jerom wrote:
iwillspankyou wrote:
The patch time is three times wrong imo with the sepoy change. @Jerom get over it, its just a tiny little change, and the cost of wood for housing is only 50 wood. Would bet that in sum is a real Buff to India. You spent hours crying like a baby for a 5% nerf to a unit that was way to over powered. When I civ can just make one unit, and right click to the other players townsenter (in many MUs) even you should recognize that a change are OK and expected if you want "balanced civs" shhhhh :devil:

I don't usually refer to ranking but you're literally a corporal telling me I'm stupid.

Im actually master sergent on my main account - still not a good player. That doesnt mean that you can put me down like this :hmm:
Not saying your stupid though, just that your act like a cry baby, spending hours on posting about a 5% nerf on a unit that we all know (even me as a corporal/MS ;)) was way to OP. And the collecting of wood for India to make all those units, where also a hazzle
:geek:
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Netherlands Jerom
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27 Oct 2017, 17:46

iwillspankyou wrote:
Jerom wrote:
Show hidden quotes

I don't usually refer to ranking but you're literally a corporal telling me I'm stupid.

Im actually master sergent on my main account - still not a good player. That doesnt mean that you can put me down like this :hmm:
Not saying your stupid though, just that your act like a cry baby, spending hours on posting about a 5% nerf on a unit that we all know (even me as a corporal/MS ;)) was way to OP. And the collecting of wood for India to make all those units, where also a hazzle
:geek:

Well, I invite you to actually read the post where I adress what I actually think is wrong and why I think the sepoy nerf is a bad nerf, because you clearly haven't read or understood it at all, and then I'd invite you to actually react to the point I made instead of calling me a cry baby because its just a 5% nerf on a unit as if I'm too stupid to understand that.

"When life give you incompetence, participate in the betting" - Jerom, winner of autumn betting, 2016
"but wer eyiu playig a gainst someone as magnificent as jerom? thats wha ti thogutb jerom is a beaaitful human being"- Mr_Bramboy
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27 Oct 2017, 17:49

@Jerom it is 5% nerf. and a buff to make houses a lot cheaper. Sometimes a cigar is only a cigar. And who would bother reading an essay about it :huh:
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27 Oct 2017, 17:51

iwillspankyou wrote:@Jerom it is 5% nerf. and a buff to make houses a lot cheaper. Sometimes a cigar is only a cigar

Look spanky, if you're unwilling to actually have a discussion then don't try to have a discussion....???

"When life give you incompetence, participate in the betting" - Jerom, winner of autumn betting, 2016
"but wer eyiu playig a gainst someone as magnificent as jerom? thats wha ti thogutb jerom is a beaaitful human being"- Mr_Bramboy
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27 Oct 2017, 17:51

musketeer925 wrote:If it seems like there was constructive discussion that was ignored, my guess is that falls in the disconnect between the discussion threads and the developers who are actually implementing the changes. There tends to be a few people in between those involved in those discussions and developers, and then because we end up trying to a release right before tournaments (which I dislike), there isn't enough time for the people who make up that bridge to fully consider suggestions and incorporate them into actual changes.
It's actually not at all true that constructive feedback was ignored. There is a 19 page thread where I spent many hours explaining our reasoning for the changes, mostly the sepoy change. This is contrary to what Jerom has been saying about us ignoring feedback, which we do take very seriously. In fact, due to community response we decided to go from schooners giving -40% train time on fishing boats to -20%. We also decided to remove a couple of changes to China mostly due to the community's response. It's true that I didn't reply to every post. There are only so many hours in a day and I work full time. But I do think every constructive comment was addressed, or at least every new argument. A lot of things were said more than once, and a lot of things were said unconstructively.
You do have a point about the patch being released too close to the event, this isn't ideal but was not planned and has to do with me basically losing track of time. That said it is still absolutely the right choice to play the tournament on the new patch because it's the only real way we have of testing changes, and some civs really needed more changes because they were not yet in a good place (Sioux, Otto). The water changes I think are also a big improvement and could bring us some interesting water games this event.

The sepoy change, while apparently controversial, is in my opinion necessary because of India's reliance on the unit. By the way, ASFP made the exact same change for mostly the same reason: sepoy are quite simply a tad too strong.

I'll explain the reasoning here once more, for those who are still able to consider a perspective other than their own. There are 2 problems we saw:
1. Insufficient build diversity in India play, despite this being a very versatile civ by design
2. A heavy reliance on sepoy in India play, especially in the early game

How to fix?
1. Because India is already versatile, a general (non-targeted) change was our buff of choice. Lowering house cost is in line with existing civ design
2. A sepoy nerf

Due to the general nature of the buff (for one, it speeds up India's colonial time by 4 seconds), we needed to reduce the risk of sepoy becoming too strong in the early game, which they already (almost) were. -10 hp is in our opinion the best possible nerf because it nerfs the unit where we think it was needed but is otherwise not as impactful. It's a 5% nerf, which is unlikely to affect the unit much beyond their early game potential.

I have also tried to explain the change is not as impactful to early rushes as some of you seem to think. Maybe some numbers will help put things into perspective: When doing a 12 sepoy rush and staying in someone's base for 30 seconds (which is fairly long), you will now lose about 4 sepoy. Before the change you would lose 2-3 if there was no explorer to shoot your sepoy, or also 4 if there was. That's right, there's no impact if the defender microes their explorer correctly, and if not it's minimal. Is 1 less sepoy going to lose you the game later on? I don't think so, especially because the house cost change has sped up your rush 4 seconds and improved your transition. People keep saying the strategy is utterly unviable now, completely destroyed. That is so far from the truth it makes it almost funny that people's heads seem to be exploding over this change. Almost.

I do appreciate all the feedback, despite the tone of some of it.
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Jaeger
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27 Oct 2017, 17:52

your right; I could not care less about having 16 pages of crying, ranting, blaming etc etc, about this @Jerom
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Netherlands Jerom
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27 Oct 2017, 17:53

Here, just for you: Sepoy rush is not OP right now, its not even exceptionally strong. This isn't quite a fact, but strongly backed up by tournament data and I think any decent player would agree with this statement. That means that if sepoy are nerfed from 190 to 180 hp, then the rush would be underpowered since this is a big deal, its like giving the opponent colonial militia for free. This is all pretty logical right? I think this is something anyone would agree with right?

The sepoy rush is not a speed based rush, it's slow, hits at 6 minutes or something at a timing that allows the other civ to have made some units. If houses were to go from 80w to 50w, india saves 30 wood in colonial. That is 52 villager seconds. In other words, since you usually age with 14 villagers, you're slightly less than 4 seconds quicker to age 2. Let me repeat that: a whopping 4 seconds. The sepoy rush will always just end up getting 5 sepoys out and shipping another 5 sepoys, so the strength of this rush depends on nothing other than those 4 seconds. It's a slow rush, being 4 seconds quicker isn't going to allow india to deny a barracks or anything. The slow sepoy rush trades its units under the TC, getting value because TC fire won't be as cost effective as it is against other rushes. If it can't trade under TC fire anymore, it can't be effective right? I think it makes sense to conclude that this is a very big nerf to the slow sepoy rush. Since the slow sepoy rush doesn't seem too strong at all, I think that means with these changes the slow sepoy rush is not a viable build order anymore.

So the conclusion is that this change nukes the slow sepoy rush. And that's what I don't like because I love the slow sepoy rush. It's a game design change that nerfs something I love. How can I be happy about this?

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