On the resource checking...

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Italy Garja
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Re: On the resource checking...

Post by Garja »

Kaiserklein wrote:
Garja wrote:Or maybe just learn to play the damn game and din't be spoiled because your closestt 3 hunts are 5 tiles farther than the opponent ones.


I don't think I've had problems to "learn the damn game", especially not if you look at the history of my games against you :o

Anyway it's just ridiculous how you're so often disagreeing with 90% of the community, but you're still sure that you're so right. Just because you have absolutely no self-questioning, a super inflated ego, and you're never ashamed of anything. For real, just keep making maps, you're really good at that, but please let reasonable people take decisions and discuss stuff.

Lol and lol. Coming from you even more lol.
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France Kaiserklein
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Re: On the resource checking...

Post by Kaiserklein »

To make it even more clear now, I used your screenshots and circled the hunts. I picked some nice colours just for you. Green is the closest hunt, yellow the second hunt, and red the third.


Map 1.png

In the first spawn, you can see the closest hunt is fine, same for both. The second hunt, however, can definitely be herded under blue's tc, while it's way too far to even come close to orange's tc. On top of that, blue's third hunt can be brought under his tc (or almost), while orange's third hunt is basically half map. So it's 2.5/3 hunts in blue's base, against only 1 (or I'll make it 1.25 for you) for orange. On top of that, blue basically got 1 more hunt on his side of the map (4 compared to 3, not taking into account the middle hunt which is pretty much exactly between both players, where orange's explo is standing on the screenshot).
How can this not get rehosted?


Map 2.png

The second spawn is not as obvious as the first, but it was still clearly in favour of orange.
Again, the first hunts are fine (which is already a huge improvement on old fertile crescent lol). But orange's second hunt can be easily herded under his tc, while blue's is probably not herdable under tc, though it can come close. Same for the third hunt, it's closer for orange, close enough to go under tc, while blue's hunt is, again, gonna come close to his base, but not quite inside. So here we have 3 safe hunts for orange, against 1 safe hunt for blue and 2 hunts coming close to his base. I'll call that 2 hunts for blue.
You might argue that a difference of 1 hunt is not enough to call for a rehost. I disagree there, since it's a tourney match and that difference can be quite big. But even if you were right and the game was kind of playable, should we really take the risk of having an unfair game (and potentially the chat/the players ranting about the map being not fair) instead of simply rehosting? Is it really such a big deal to rehost after 30 seconds of game, when we feel like one player was at disadvantage? I don't understand your logic.
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Re: On the resource checking...

Post by Gendarme »

@Kaiserklein What you are calling "first hunt" Garja calls "second hunt". What you are calling "second hunt" Garja deems irrelevant and not belonging to any player. What you are calling "third hunt" is a joke to Garja.
Pay more attention to detail.
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Re: On the resource checking...

Post by Garja »

TY for doing that, I was too lazy to edit the images. 2nd spawn is perfectly fine.

umeu wrote:
Garja wrote:Randomness is the best thing of this game.
Thank you for not reading the post anyway.


ok so lets play all games on RE bayou, sonora and patagonia from now on!

We played those maps for 10 years?
And btw when they spawn decently they are in fact very good maps.
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Re: On the resource checking...

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Post by deleted_user0 »

Garja wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:
Garja wrote:Or maybe just learn to play the damn game and din't be spoiled because your closestt 3 hunts are 5 tiles farther than the opponent ones.


I don't think I've had problems to "learn the damn game", especially not if you look at the history of my games against you :o

Anyway it's just ridiculous how you're so often disagreeing with 90% of the community, but you're still sure that you're so right. Just because you have absolutely no self-questioning, a super inflated ego, and you're never ashamed of anything. For real, just keep making maps, you're really good at that, but please let reasonable people take decisions and discuss stuff.

Lol and lol. Coming from you even more lol.


the op is funny coming from you, since you probably cry more than anyone that you lose just because hunts are unfair or mines blabla.
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Re: On the resource checking...

Post by Garja »

Bullshit. I don't complain about "a missing hunt" or "a missing mine". Occasionally it can happen but it's a clear map bug. Here we are talking about totally normal spawns with resources just played a bit asimmetrically.
Honestly I've been always wary from caster rehosts having been fucked twice in tourney by that. Problem is casters don't even do that in bad faith but they're simply not educated to judge maps properly. And in part this has to do with the trend of playing perfectly symmetric maps. This game has been played on shitty maps for 10 years producing lot of ggs on bad spawns. Now EP maps have way higher standard and fail let's say 15% of times on average (Fertile Crescent is one of the less consistent maps with something like 25% fail rate). Yet lot of casters would rehost a map like 50% of times. That's just bs.
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Re: On the resource checking...

Post by Kaiserklein »

umeu wrote:RE bayou, sonora and patagonia

Garja wrote:they are in fact very good maps.

:uglylol:
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Re: On the resource checking...

Post by Garja »

Ahah see the point, you're just an asshole and don't know shit. Patagonia and bayou with fixes have been used in old FPs and they're great maps, better than GP, silk road, himalaya or other RE maps popular nowadays. Bayou is also one of the best maps when it spawns with starting hunts. And the reason is that it spawns with many different pattersn thanks to the swamp mechanic.
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Re: On the resource checking...

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Post by KINGofOsmane »

only the G knows everything
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Re: On the resource checking...

Post by bwinner »

Garja wrote:TY for doing that, I was too lazy to edit the images. 2nd spawn is perfectly fine.

umeu wrote:
Garja wrote:Randomness is the best thing of this game.
Thank you for not reading the post anyway.


ok so lets play all games on RE bayou, sonora and patagonia from now on!

We played those maps for 10 years?
And btw when they spawn decently they are in fact very good maps.

Can you remind me why you made new maps ? Because I am very confused now, if that's not to because they are fair.
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Re: On the resource checking...

Post by Garja »

I made new maps because they're better than fixed RE maps in several ways, where more fair/consistent resources is just one factor.
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Re: On the resource checking...

Post by Kaiserklein »

Garja wrote:Ahah see the point, you're just an asshole and don't know shit.

Ok, seems constructive

Garja wrote:Patagonia and bayou with fixes have been used in old FPs and they're great maps, better than GP, silk road, himalaya or other RE maps popular nowadays. Bayou is also one of the best maps when it spawns with starting hunts. And the reason is that it spawns with many different pattersn thanks to the swamp mechanic.

Yea great, with fixes. You could argue that any map would become at least decent with the suitable fixes...
Basically, all 3 of these maps are utter garbage because they almost never spawn decently (plus patagonia is also garbage because water is broken on RE, but that's another story). This shows again that you don't seem to understand that balanced resources is a super important factor in a map. I could also argue that fertile crescent would be a super good map if you fixed the way the hunts spawn, just like for bayou etc...
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Re: On the resource checking...

Post by Garja »

No. What makes those maps great is the layout and the fact that resources can spawn with different patterns (less so on patagonia). Obviously they need some fixes since there isn't even a coded starting hunt (and Patagonia has 4 animals only lol) but when they spawn correctly they are good. Patagonia was a WCG map btw.
Fertile Crescent with fixed hunts would be inferior to the current one. No restarts ofc but always same resource patterns.
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Re: On the resource checking...

Post by momuuu »

_LeGiT wrote:
umeu wrote:
Garja wrote:Randomness is the best thing of this game.
Thank you for not reading the post anyway.


ok so lets play all games on RE bayou, sonora and patagonia from now on!

I still rather play those maps than have perfectly symmetrical maps with 3 hunts every game. I actually rather play tetris. At least I get random blocks and have to use my mind to win and not just play down 1 fucking way like solving a rubics cube

So go play tetris lol. What a load of bullshit.
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Re: On the resource checking...

Post by momuuu »

Theres a difference between asking for fixed hunts and not wanting to have one player sometimes spawn with 3 safe hunts and 1 decent hunt while the other gets 2 safe hunts and 1 worse hunt than the other guy's fourth hunt. Thats not randomness, that is bad map coding.
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Re: On the resource checking...

Post by Garja »

Reread your sentence please :chinese:

Anyway, all this hunt counting it's quite bs honestly. Stuff like 4th hunt etc. means you're talking about midmap and 20 minutes into the game.
Thing is if you want different resource patterns to happen you either code every pattern singularly or just give a degree of freedom to the resources. Both solutions are used on my EP maps, sometimes together. And it's not bad coding it's rms coding. Fixed resources are closest to a scenario map.
Having randomness in resource distribution is also important for team spawns where coding each resource specifically is even less efficient.
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Re: On the resource checking...

Post by momuuu »

Garja wrote:Reread your sentence please :chinese:

Anyway, all this hunt counting it's quite bs honestly. Stuff like 4th hunt etc. means you're talking about midmap and 20 minutes into the game.
Thing is if you want different resource patterns to happen you either code every pattern singularly or just give a degree of freedom to the resources. Both solutions are used on my EP maps, sometimes together. And it's not bad coding it's rms coding. Fixed resources are closest to a scenario map.
Having randomness in resource distribution is also important for team spawns where coding each resource specifically is even less efficient.

The problem is that in one game this player had a ridiculous fourth hunt that was nowhere near midmap. You can have more consistent map spawns without sacrifising variety. Just look at rikis maps.
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Re: On the resource checking...

Post by Garja »

Riki's map mostly have fixed resources. When it's not fixed is mirror. Mirror ensure fairness but comes with drawbacks such as knowing exactly where opponent resources are without scouting. Also doesn't work too well on maps that have unique layouts. Also the advantage of letting res place randomly is that it creates patterns that you can't predict and you have to scout them. And obviously in the long run it's going to produce different games.

And btw, all ESOC maps have already some standards that ensure consistency. Fertile Crescent pretty much have mirror mines except for the ones in the middle. Hunts constraints make it so that 60% of times the map has the same hunt pattern.

What it seems is not understood is that randomness it's necessary for the map to have longevity.
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Re: On the resource checking...

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Post by Kaiserklein »

I'd like to make clear that I never asked you to change fertile crescent. You seem to think that we all want perfectly symmetrical and fixed maps, but that's not true. I'm fine with randomness to a certain extent (as long as the map is roughly fair most of the time), and I'm fine with maps spawns sometimes being fucked up because well, shit happens, and that's the price to pay when we don't want a fixed map (and I, for one, don't).

The point is just that I want to be able to rehost when the spawn is bad. It's really simple. And I don't want to have a Garja calling the casters "morons" and spamming in caps in the chat, just because his ego is hurt that his map got rehosted. It's already hard enough to make a decision about the map, with the pressure of a potential fiasco with the players/the chat/the tourney admins in case we don't rehost a bad spawn, without having sand-in-the-Garjina ranting and spamming in the chat.
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Re: On the resource checking...

Post by Garja »

Cool, just don't cast my games thx
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Re: On the resource checking...

Post by Kaiserklein »

Garja wrote:Cool, just don't cast my games thx

I don't think it's up to you to decide of that. You can resign from the tourney though
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Re: On the resource checking...

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Post by Hazza54321 »

kaiser garja grudge match! queen or kaiser cant cast it though
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Re: On the resource checking...

Post by _LeGiT »

Jerom wrote:
_LeGiT wrote:
Show hidden quotes

I still rather play those maps than have perfectly symmetrical maps with 3 hunts every game. I actually rather play tetris. At least I get random blocks and have to use my mind to win and not just play down 1 fucking way like solving a rubics cube

So go play tetris lol. What a load of bullshit.


are u a morron? or you just cant read? I was trying to make a point that playing this game when you ALWAYS have symmetrical maps with 3 hunts would be super boring.
Having random spawns and maybe a shift towards one mapside in hunts or mines is a necessary part of the game.
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Re: On the resource checking...

Post by HUMMAN »

1st map was bad, 2nd was kinda ok but i agree casters shouldnt risk. Its better to lose 30 seconds to have a bad game.
I agree castera should consider civ and game(jap/dutch), but thats another story.
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Re: On the resource checking...

Post by dicktator_ »

Doesn't seem like a big deal to me. Rehosts should be avoided if possible, but it's not the end of the world if a caster makes a bad rehost call. It doesn't take more than 1-2 mins of the players/viewers time.
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