Biased mapchecking?

France Kaiserklein
Pro Player
Posts: 10278
Joined: Jun 6, 2015
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

Re: Biased mapchecking?

Post by Kaiserklein »

somppukunkku wrote:He was given a possibility to judge his situation in the game so he can either continue or rehost. I think that's an advatange.

That's an advantage but he decided to keep playing which was really bad for him, so at the end of the day I don't think you can say you have been screwed.
Image
Image
Image
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
No Flag deleted_user0
Ninja
Posts: 13004
Joined: Apr 28, 2020

Re: Biased mapchecking?

Post by deleted_user0 »

Kaiserklein wrote:
somppukunkku wrote:He was given a possibility to judge his situation in the game so he can either continue or rehost. I think that's an advatange.

That's an advantage but he decided to keep playing which was really bad for him, so at the end of the day I don't think you can say you have been screwed.

Well, I quite mentioned in the opening post that in the end I'm not sure which one suffered more.

However, my point is that casters gave also in this situation him an advatage, like in the other 2 games aswell.
User avatar
France Rikikipu
Retired Contributor
Posts: 1679
Joined: Feb 27, 2015
ESO: p-of
Location: In your base

Re: Biased mapchecking?

  • Quote

Post by Rikikipu »

Sigh...
I would like to recall that even on top e-sport games, randomness is still present. For instance on Counter-Strike, depending on your spawn at the begining of the round you can pick or not an angle which gives you an early map control. Basically we got on one side CSGO players with ~ 1 000 000 $ prizepot who don't complain about randomness and on the other side we got AOE3 players with ~ 10$ prizepot who cry about randomness.

Esoc maps have really improved reliability compared to RE maps, Esoc casters make an hard work to always check the resources fairness, and Esoc Admins are here to deal with unfairness toward a player. If you think that overall it's not enough for you because you are too good and your OP skill can't suffer from randomness, I advise you to play Starcraft 2 e-sport with its 3 civs and fixed maps, I'm sure that you are so good that you'll be a top player there. I'll personally stick to AOE3, I've fun playing a videogame with more than 100 match-ups on always different maps, it's quite entertaining.
Parenthesis about randomness closed.
No Flag deleted_user0
Ninja
Posts: 13004
Joined: Apr 28, 2020

Re: Biased mapchecking?

Post by deleted_user0 »

^^
Not sure if this message is dedicated to me but I didn't complain about randomness at any point. I questioned that every admin decision was against me.

Secondly, I think money is not the biggest factor here.
User avatar
France Rikikipu
Retired Contributor
Posts: 1679
Joined: Feb 27, 2015
ESO: p-of
Location: In your base

Re: Biased mapchecking?

Post by Rikikipu »

somppukunkku wrote:^^
Not sure if this message is dedicated to me but I didn't complain about randomness. I questioned that every admin decision was against me.

No, this message wasn't dedicated to you, for once I kinda agree with you actually.
No Flag agase1
Crossbow
Posts: 4
Joined: Jun 8, 2017

Re: Biased mapchecking?

Post by agase1 »

This guy is just crying!!!!! Instead of thanking the casters, he is creating "randomness" now. Just move on..just thank Radix n map makers for their work..God he won....otherwise!!!!!!!!! Kasier just explained it the ri8 way n rikikipu the harsher way!!! hahaha...
User avatar
Finland princeofkabul
Pro Player
NWC LAN Top 8EPL Reigning Champs
Posts: 2372
Joined: Feb 28, 2015
ESO: Princeofkabul
Location: In retirement home with Sam and Vic

Re: Biased mapchecking?

Post by princeofkabul »

Rikikipu wrote:Sigh...
I would like to recall that even on top e-sport games, randomness is still present. For instance on Counter-Strike, depending on your spawn at the begining of the round you can pick or not an angle which gives you an early map control. Basically we got on one side CSGO players with ~ 1 000 000 $ prizepot who don't complain about randomness and on the other side we got AOE3 players with ~ 10$ prizepot who cry about randomness.

Esoc maps have really improved reliability compared to RE maps, Esoc casters make an hard work to always check the resources fairness, and Esoc Admins are here to deal with unfairness toward a player. If you think that overall it's not enough for you because you are too good and your OP skill can't suffer from randomness, I advise you to play Starcraft 2 e-sport with its 3 civs and fixed maps, I'm sure that you are so good that you'll be a top player there. I'll personally stick to AOE3, I've fun playing a videogame with more than 100 match-ups on always different maps, it's quite entertaining.
Parenthesis about randomness closed.


comparing cs go spawn point is quite fucking marginal compared to aoe 3's randomness though... also in cs go you basically throw a flashbang/ window smoke to counter it and that's that.
Chairman of Washed Up clan
Leader of the Shady Swedes
Team Manager of the Blockhouse Boomers
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
Joined: Jun 7, 2015
ESO: Jerom_

Re: Biased mapchecking?

Post by momuuu »

Atomiswave wrote:
Jerom wrote:Isn't the underlying problem simply that most of the maps in the pool arent made for competitive tournaments? The standards of most of the people here as to when a map is fair and the average map spawn just means you're going to have to be rehosting a lot. Sometimes people look at the 5th or 6th hunt, which is really rarely relevant. But then it still feels bad when the game is determined by that. And to be honest, I think people have been on the receiving end of maps not being rehosted and then losing because of a mapscrew. I personally am almost 100% convinced I lost one game because of a map screw (2nd hunt was out on the middle of the map on siberia) with zutazuta and samwise being the casters (I think samwise even admitted that) which does feel bad. But hey, shit happens. The worst one was the water flag case probably, although I can imagine somppu would've won that anyways, and then fortunately the pampas sierras one didnt end up mattering.

In the end if one would try to optimize this stuff, then the maps would have to be rewritten or get tournament versions. It's just so bad for the viewer experience that you're stuck between rehosting 1-5 times or something or that you have to have competitive series played out on unfair map spawns.


Currently, only way to optimize them is set hunts to fixed state, which nobody wants, cause it completely eliminates random factor.

Two points:
1) Garja has revisited his maps multiple times to make them more and more random. Just take a simple look at rikikipu's maps, which are at least way more consistent in terms of their spawns. He applies some coding to make the map spawn symmetrically very frequently and that gives a really nice result in terms of hunt spawns on most of them (some of the maps still face issues but thats how it is). Garja insists that unfair map spawns are more fun or something, while some sense of randomness that they used to have is completely fine too.
2) honestly, non random maps or maps with relatively consistent spawns can be more fun. It's a mistake to think that fixed maps lead to boring games. I think more fixed maps can create strategies that fully account for the timings at which certain hunts run out or timing attacks at certain positions.

Anyhow, theres definitely the possibility to make maps have good spawns 100% of the time, and that possibility is definitely being ignored by that one specific person. The problem is that that person will refuse to listen to feedback so we might as well give up trying to change things.
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
Joined: Jun 7, 2015
ESO: Jerom_

Re: Biased mapchecking?

Post by momuuu »

Rikikipu wrote:Sigh...
I would like to recall that even on top e-sport games, randomness is still present. For instance on Counter-Strike, depending on your spawn at the begining of the round you can pick or not an angle which gives you an early map control. Basically we got on one side CSGO players with ~ 1 000 000 $ prizepot who don't complain about randomness and on the other side we got AOE3 players with ~ 10$ prizepot who cry about randomness.

Esoc maps have really improved reliability compared to RE maps, Esoc casters make an hard work to always check the resources fairness, and Esoc Admins are here to deal with unfairness toward a player. If you think that overall it's not enough for you because you are too good and your OP skill can't suffer from randomness, I advise you to play Starcraft 2 e-sport with its 3 civs and fixed maps, I'm sure that you are so good that you'll be a top player there. I'll personally stick to AOE3, I've fun playing a videogame with more than 100 match-ups on always different maps, it's quite entertaining.
Parenthesis about randomness closed.

Random aspects can be fine but I wonder how much the very random map spawns improve aoe in any sense.
No Flag deleted_user0
Ninja
Posts: 13004
Joined: Apr 28, 2020

Re: Biased mapchecking?

Post by deleted_user0 »

Jerom wrote:
Atomiswave wrote:
Jerom wrote:Isn't the underlying problem simply that most of the maps in the pool arent made for competitive tournaments? The standards of most of the people here as to when a map is fair and the average map spawn just means you're going to have to be rehosting a lot. Sometimes people look at the 5th or 6th hunt, which is really rarely relevant. But then it still feels bad when the game is determined by that. And to be honest, I think people have been on the receiving end of maps not being rehosted and then losing because of a mapscrew. I personally am almost 100% convinced I lost one game because of a map screw (2nd hunt was out on the middle of the map on siberia) with zutazuta and samwise being the casters (I think samwise even admitted that) which does feel bad. But hey, shit happens. The worst one was the water flag case probably, although I can imagine somppu would've won that anyways, and then fortunately the pampas sierras one didnt end up mattering.

In the end if one would try to optimize this stuff, then the maps would have to be rewritten or get tournament versions. It's just so bad for the viewer experience that you're stuck between rehosting 1-5 times or something or that you have to have competitive series played out on unfair map spawns.


Currently, only way to optimize them is set hunts to fixed state, which nobody wants, cause it completely eliminates random factor.

Two points:
1) Garja has revisited his maps multiple times to make them more and more random. Just take a simple look at rikikipu's maps, which are at least way more consistent in terms of their spawns. He applies some coding to make the map spawn symmetrically very frequently and that gives a really nice result in terms of hunt spawns on most of them (some of the maps still face issues but thats how it is). Garja insists that unfair map spawns are more fun or something, while some sense of randomness that they used to have is completely fine too.
2) honestly, non random maps or maps with relatively consistent spawns can be more fun. It's honestly a mistake to think that fixed maps lead to boring games. I think more fixed maps can create strategies that fully account for the timings at which certain hunts run out or timing attacks at certain positions.

Anyhow, theres definitely the possibility to make maps have good spawns 100% of the time, and that possibility is definitely being ignored by that one specific person. The problem is that that person will refuse to listen to feedback so we might as well give up trying to change things.


actually garjas maps consistently have better res distribution and spawns than rikis maps. not sure why you are on this anti garja crusade. say about him as a player what you will, but nobody makes better maps than he does atm. rikis maps are often nice in concept, but often lack details.
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
Joined: Jun 7, 2015
ESO: Jerom_

Re: Biased mapchecking?

Post by momuuu »

Rikis maps might be worse at their core, but at least he doesnt insist on having a bullshit spawn 4/10 times or something like garja does. Malysia for example was a map that struggled in overall hunt spawns and distribution but was at least consistent in having fair spawns. Theres a subtle difference between the two points.

Overall there are so many maps right now that I think the tournament staff and EP team should just select the best maps and that the mapmakers should try to tweak the maps and improve them.
User avatar
United States of America _H2O
ESOC Business Team
Donator 06
Posts: 3409
Joined: Aug 20, 2016
ESO: _H2O

Re: Biased mapchecking?

  • Quote

Post by _H2O »

Jerom, Iā€™m sorry but your comments are here negative and wrong at the same time. They slap people in the face who have improved the state of the game significantly. They end up also providing no real solutions. What is anyone going to do with ā€œmake tournament ready versions of the mapsā€ when you know very well the maps are designed to be tournament ready. Itā€™s really not something I can watch that happen without saying anything.

That being said, the community in the past has wanted to preserve the random seed concept of maps while spawning fairly. Difficult to achieve both. At one point our standard of fair was saying ESOC maps sapawned fairly 9/10 Times. Over time I feel the community is demanding more and more equity in spawns which makes sense.

What would be helpful is to spawn the map 10+ times and record if it is fair or not. If it is not fair enough then why. That gives the map makers data points to understand where the code might be causing bad spawns. Not that fair is subjective. At one point fair was just do both sides have the same number of hunts and mines on your half and equally placed first three hunts and mines.

If we have those data points and then discuss it then thereā€™s a chance the maps get adjusted. Otherwise this is just a venting thread.
User avatar
United States of America dicktator_
Howdah
EWT
Posts: 1565
Joined: Nov 14, 2015
ESO: Conquerer999

Re: Biased mapchecking?

Post by dicktator_ »

The maps aren't perfect but I think a lot of people underestimate how difficult and time consuming it is to actually create a map. I did a couple for treaty (editing/balancing RE maps) but even that is a lot easier that what the people on the mapmaking team do because the implications of hunt/mine distance from tc aren't nearly as severe for treaty.
steniothejonjoe wrote:I can micro better than 99% of the player base and that's 100% objective
:mds:
France Kaiserklein
Pro Player
Posts: 10278
Joined: Jun 6, 2015
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

Re: Biased mapchecking?

Post by Kaiserklein »

_H2O wrote:Jerom, Iā€™m sorry but your comments are here negative and wrong at the same time. They slap people in the face who have improved the state of the game significantly. They end up also providing no real solutions. What is anyone going to do with ā€œmake tournament ready versions of the mapsā€ when you know very well the maps are designed to be tournament ready. Itā€™s really not something I can watch that happen without saying anything.

That being said, the community in the past has wanted to preserve the random seed concept of maps while spawning fairly. Difficult to achieve both. At one point our standard of fair was saying ESOC maps sapawned fairly 9/10 Times. Over time I feel the community is demanding more and more equity in spawns which makes sense.

What would be helpful is to spawn the map 10+ times and record if it is fair or not. If it is not fair enough then why. That gives the map makers data points to understand where the code might be causing bad spawns. Not that fair is subjective. At one point fair was just do both sides have the same number of hunts and mines on your half and equally placed first three hunts and mines.

If we have those data points and then discuss it then thereā€™s a chance the maps get adjusted. Otherwise this is just a venting thread.

I agree completely with your post, except that sadly Garja probably won't agree when people say a given map had a bad spawn, so it won't work
Image
Image
Image
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
User avatar
Italy Garja
Retired Contributor
Donator 02
Posts: 9729
Joined: Feb 11, 2015
ESO: Garja

Re: Biased mapchecking?

Post by Garja »

Thing is I already do that before calling the map ready. Not 10 but 20 times actually (on top of the 50+ spawns in the process of making the map which gives an idea of the outcome), taking note of what res is not fair. Used to do that more in past than now but still there is this quality check anyway.

And anyway, it's not about unfair spawns being fun. Putting it that way is silly. It's about not being completely autistic by thinking that if the resources are not symmetrical then one player is necessarily at a disadvantage.
Again, the price payed in terms of occasional map screw is just for the map to have more possible spawns. Different spawns allows for other skills to emerge (such as adaptability and repertoir of strategies) and in the end lead to different games.
The less restrictions used in resource placement the more possible resource layouts you get.

Riki makes a good point. The time spent whining about randomness would be better invested in a game like SC2. Frankly, the game concept of SC2 is way weaker than AOE3, exactly because of all the fixed factors.
Image Image Image
User avatar
United States of America _H2O
ESOC Business Team
Donator 06
Posts: 3409
Joined: Aug 20, 2016
ESO: _H2O

Re: Biased mapchecking?

Post by _H2O »

Funny, I have actually sat with Garja and spawned maps tons of times and he seemed reasonable in his evaluation to me.

Have you also spawned maps with him to test balance?
User avatar
France bwinner
Howdah
Donator 01
Posts: 1292
Joined: Mar 14, 2016
ESO: bwinner

Re: Biased mapchecking?

Post by bwinner »

_H2O wrote:Funny, I have actually sat with Garja and spawned maps tons of times and he seemed reasonable in his evaluation to me.

Have you also spawned maps with him to test balance?

You should rather play tourney....
Image
France Kaiserklein
Pro Player
Posts: 10278
Joined: Jun 6, 2015
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

Re: Biased mapchecking?

Post by Kaiserklein »

_H2O wrote:Funny, I have actually sat with Garja and spawned maps tons of times and he seemed reasonable in his evaluation to me.

Have you also spawned maps with him to test balance?

He gets crazy whenever a map is rehosted in tourney, always arguing that the spawn was in fact fair, and occasionally flaming the casters for being too dumb to judge his maps. So I think it's safe to assume that he's not ready to reasonably discuss the fairness of the spawns.

You being you, I can imagine he would listen to your opinion, yeah. But that's only because you're one of the few persons that Garja respects.
Image
Image
Image
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
User avatar
Tuvalu gibson
Ninja
ECL Reigning Champs
Posts: 13597
Joined: May 4, 2015
Location: USA

Re: Biased mapchecking?

Post by gibson »

Yea it's like he takes it as a personal insult whenever a map is deemed unbalanced.......... they spawn fairly more often than not but in a tourney setting its better safe than sorry for sure.
User avatar
United States of America _H2O
ESOC Business Team
Donator 06
Posts: 3409
Joined: Aug 20, 2016
ESO: _H2O

Re: Biased mapchecking?

Post by _H2O »

These are a lot of the older ESOC maps still being played today. I think itā€™s a combination of a bit less testing of spawns as Garja said and also the community having their standards creep up because of the maps being way better.

Itā€™s pretty easy to hit it out of the park on balance if you compare to any RE map spawn.
Australia Hazza54321
Pro Player
Winter Champion 2020 x2Donator 01
Posts: 8049
Joined: May 4, 2015
ESO: PrinceofBabu

Re: Biased mapchecking?

Post by Hazza54321 »

Both garja and riki seem to tane it too personally when people criticise their maps
User avatar
Bavaria Gichtenlord
Howdah
Donator 03
Posts: 1437
Joined: Nov 15, 2015

Re: Biased mapchecking?

Post by Gichtenlord »

There are plenty of people who never gave constructive criticism and just hated on the maps. Obviously, you would take it personally.
For riki, I have never seen him take it personally if someone criticized in a respectful and constructive manner.
r]
France Kaiserklein
Pro Player
Posts: 10278
Joined: Jun 6, 2015
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

Re: Biased mapchecking?

Post by Kaiserklein »

Hazza54321 wrote:Both garja and riki seem to tane it too personally when people criticise their maps

Probably because what you call "criticism" is saying "this map is shit" without adding anything constructive. I mean for riki, garja is another story obviously.
Image
Image
Image
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
Australia Hazza54321
Pro Player
Winter Champion 2020 x2Donator 01
Posts: 8049
Joined: May 4, 2015
ESO: PrinceofBabu

Re: Biased mapchecking?

Post by Hazza54321 »

Sure i have been a little harsh on him, although i have said more than ā€œthe map is shitā€ but tbh a lot of them arent competitive enough for tournament play
User avatar
Italy Garja
Retired Contributor
Donator 02
Posts: 9729
Joined: Feb 11, 2015
ESO: Garja

Re: Biased mapchecking?

Post by Garja »

btw which maps do you think are not competitive and why
Image Image Image

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Which top 10 players do you wish to see listed?

All-time

Active last two weeks

Active last month

Supremacy

Treaty

Official

ESOC Patch

Treaty Patch

1v1 Elo

2v2 Elo

3v3 Elo

Power Rating

Which streams do you wish to see listed?

Twitch

Age of Empires III

Age of Empires IV