Curious: How were the Brackets Made Up?

[abbadan]

I was very saddened to see Aizamk eliminated in the round of 16...and I would've been just as saddened to see LordRaph knocked out if it had gone down that way.
This makes me wonder how those two ended up in the same bracket and scheduled to meet so early? It looks to me like there are at least 9 other people still in this who wouldn't take more than maybe one game in a best of 5 off of either of those two.
Again, there are no accusations here, only curiosity: was it a draw-from-a-hat kind of thing, like the Football tourneys of the World Cup or Olympics?
AbbaDan

[Hazza54321]

was done by elo i think but some peoples elo are inaccurate

[Mr_Bramboy]

Seeds were granted based on 1v1 ELO (both RE and EP)

6.1 - Any player who has finished in the top 16 of the last event and signs up again will be automatically seeded in the top 16 seeds based on their performance and players who sign up.

6.2 - 12 seeds are distributed using 1v1 ELO. Higher the ELO the better the seed.

I am unsure on why Aizamk and Raphael faced off so early, though. I can assure you there was no manual intervention in the seeding process after the RO128.

[Kaiserklein]

Please change the seeding method in the next tourney

[zoom]

ESOC bracketing...

[musketeer925]

Please change the seeding method in the next tourney

And what is the method that you would suggest?

[dicktator_]

Just seed based on Elo. Don’t give the top 16 players from the last tourney the top seeds. Aiz wasn’t in the spring tourney iirc resulting in a low seed.

[Hazza54321]

yeah then u get people like tedere in a good seed and people like aiz in a bad seed :')

[jesus3]

people like tedere

is that the proper way to talk about a fellow top8 player? I don't think so

[abbadan]

people like tedere

is that the proper way to talk about a fellow top8 player? I don't think so

Look, that's the point: IS Tedere a true top 8 player? And if SaveYourSkill had beaten him, would HE be a top 8 player?
I think we saw a series worthy of a best of 7 quarterfinal (at least) played one round too early (at least). These things DO happen, but we should try to avoid them, if possible.

[Kaiserklein]

Please change the seeding method in the next tourney

And what is the method that you would suggest?

I already suggested something a while ago. viewtopic.php?f=399&t=12647&start=50#p267680
Basically, take both elo and recent tourney performances into account, with a simple formula and coefficients that can be tweaked.
I calculated some examples here: viewtopic.php?f=399&t=12647&start=50#p267767

[jesus3]

people like tedere

is that the proper way to talk about a fellow top8 player? I don't think so

Look, that's the point: IS Tedere a true top 8 player? And if SaveYourSkill had beaten him, would HE be a top 8 player?
I think we saw a series worthy of a best of 7 quarterfinal (at least) played one round too early (at least). These things DO happen, but we should try to avoid them, if possible.

Look, that's the point: I was just poking a little. Don't take everything too serious and relax a bit, please.

Although now that you've mentioned it: Yes, I do think tedere is a legit top8 player of this tourney since he's beaten all of his opponents so far, easy brackets or not. In my opinion there is no reason for attempting to further eliminate any randomness manually since a tournament also lives off surprises. We have seen an entertaining series between rapha and aiz nevertheless.

On another note, I also think that seeding should get optimized but then we have to return to bucketheads question again, which is more of a fundamental crunch question. Is there truly a better way in general? I'm sure the staff has put enough thought in that.

[Gendarme]

Tfw musketeer is buckethead and I never realized. It all makes sense now.

[Kaiserklein]

Although now that you've mentioned it: Yes, I do think tedere is a legit top8 player of this tourney since he's beaten all of his opponents so far, easy brackets or not.

Tedere is the player who deserves the most to reach RO8, among the 8 players who could have been in his place. It does make him the best candidate for that one spot in the RO8.
It doesn't mean at all that he's a top 8 player of the tourney, though. I think it's pretty obvious that players like aizamk, prince, garja, osmane, somppu, and some others... would most likely beat Tedere if they had to play against him in tourney. In other words, with a perfect seeding that would allow everyone to reach the furthest possible round, depending on how good they are, Tedere most likely wouldn't reach RO8.

In my opinion there is no reason for attempting to further eliminate any randomness manually since a tournament also lives off surprises.

Randomness will never be completely eliminated anyway, since the seeding won't ever be perfect. If the seeding was perfect, you might as well not run the tourney, and directly give the money to the seeds 1, 2 and 3. The seeding can be improved, but it doesn't mean there won't be surprises. There will always be surprises and upsets, regardless of the seeding method.

We have seen an entertaining series between rapha and aiz nevertheless.

Yeah it was really entertaining, and that's cool for the viewers. But it's still pretty unfair to aiz (and it could have been unfair to lordraphael in the same way) that he was kicked so early in the tourney. Just like it's unfair to all the other players I mentioned above, who weren't able to reach a round their gameplay deserves.
Plus, I'd argue that if we had lordraphael vs aiz later in the tourney, it would have been a BO7 or BO9 instead of a BO5, making it potentially a better series to watch.

On another note, I also think that seeding should get optimized but then we have to return to bucketheads question again, which is more of a fundamental crunch question. Is there truly a better way in general? I'm sure the staff has put enough thought in that.

Sorry that I'm going to be negative here, but there is definitely way better ways to do the seeding than what we have atm. Having 2 ways of seeding the players for a same tourney just can't work. Of course the seed 17 is gonna be way stronger than the seed 16, when seed 16 is decided by the previous tourney (so most likely a random pr 30 who barely made it to RO16) while seed 17 is decided by elo (#1 elo among the players who weren't in the previous tourney, usually aka H2O, Blackstar, etc, a top contender). It's kind of a no-brainer really. The formula needs to be the same for everyone, or at least, let's take into account only the top 4 players from the previous tourney (that idea comes from Mitoe), instead of the top 16. But even then, I don't trust ELO enough to seed the remaining 28 players with it.

[jesus3]

Tedere is the player who deserves the most to reach RO8, among the 8 players who could have been in his place. It does make him the best candidate for that one spot in the RO8.
It doesn't mean at all that he's a top 8 player of the tourney, though. I think it's pretty obvious that players like aizamk, prince, garja, osmane, somppu, and some others... would most likely beat Tedere if they had to play against him in tourney. In other words, with a perfect seeding that would allow everyone to reach the furthest possible round, depending on how good they are, Tedere most likely wouldn't reach RO8.

Of course there are stronger players but I will just stick to the point you also agreed on, he is the best candidate for that one spot and has shown some great play, too. Which makes him a top8 of this tourney by definition if you will so

Sorry that I'm going to be negative here, but there is definitely way better ways to do the seeding than what we have atm. Having 2 ways of seeding the players for a same tourney just can't work. Of course the seed 17 is gonna be way stronger than the seed 16, when seed 16 is decided by the previous tourney (so most likely a random pr 30 who barely made it to RO16) while seed 17 is decided by elo (#1 elo among the players who weren't in the previous tourney, usually aka H2O, Blackstar, etc, a top contender). It's kind of a no-brainer really. The formula needs to be the same for everyone, or at least, let's take into account only the top 4 players from the previous tourney (that idea comes from Mitoe), instead of the top 16. But even then, I don't trust ELO enough to seed the remaining 28 players with it.

I have no idea how it works right now since I am not part of the staff and haven't put effort into studying that. I just wanted to point out that they probably thought quite a while about it. It's open for discussion and improvement and thats good, however, most of the time it's people complaining without proposing a better solution. You've apparentely done that which is nice, thanks.

[deleted_user0]

Tedere is the player who deserves the most to reach RO8, among the 8 players who could have been in his place. It does make him the best candidate for that one spot in the RO8.
It doesn't mean at all that he's a top 8 player of the tourney, though. I think it's pretty obvious that players like aizamk, prince, garja, osmane, somppu, and some others... would most likely beat Tedere if they had to play against him in tourney. In other words, with a perfect seeding that would allow everyone to reach the furthest possible round, depending on how good they are, Tedere most likely wouldn't reach RO8.

Of course there are stronger players but I will just stick to the point you also agreed on, he is the best candidate for that one spot and has shown some great play, too. Which makes him a top8 of this tourney by definition if you will so

Sorry that I'm going to be negative here, but there is definitely way better ways to do the seeding than what we have atm. Having 2 ways of seeding the players for a same tourney just can't work. Of course the seed 17 is gonna be way stronger than the seed 16, when seed 16 is decided by the previous tourney (so most likely a random pr 30 who barely made it to RO16) while seed 17 is decided by elo (#1 elo among the players who weren't in the previous tourney, usually aka H2O, Blackstar, etc, a top contender). It's kind of a no-brainer really. The formula needs to be the same for everyone, or at least, let's take into account only the top 4 players from the previous tourney (that idea comes from Mitoe), instead of the top 16. But even then, I don't trust ELO enough to seed the remaining 28 players with it.

I have no idea how it works right now since I am not part of the staff and haven't put effort into studying that. I just wanted to point out that they probably thought quite a while about it. It's open for discussion and improvement and thats good, however, most of the time it's people complaining without proposing a better solution. You've apparentely done that which is nice, thanks.

by that definition if half the top players ended up in 1 bracket and killing each other, and some sergeants got to round of 8 because in his seed he only had to beat some corporals and he upset a 2nd lt, then he's a round of 8 player. sure. but thats redundant. ofcourse by that definition hes a ro8 player, the point is that the definition (or aka the seeding) is a bad one. that said, i dont think the seeding methods are necessarily bad. i think the tournaments just aren't as stacked as they used to be. there are quite a few other players in the ro16 and even ro32 that never wouldve made it there in previous tournaments. tedere may also be improving, we'll see if this was just a fluke, or wether from now on he will consistently be ro16+ player. he was always one of the stronger majors out there, together with jerom and some others.

as for aiz being out. ro16 is usually where he goes out lol. cause he always insists to play as aizamk, instead of aizmak. and he doesnt want to win.

[deleted_user]

Aiz wants to win but in the most innocent way possible and only he wants to win because it will be entertaining and even if he loses playing as he does it will also be entertaining perhaps he has no motive at all actually this may be true.

He did take tournament-favorite and previous-champion to the final game though. I don't think he necessarily didn't want to win, but, didn't feel the urge to win either. Aiz chaotic neutral?

Anyways, Tedere...

[jesus3]

@deleted_user ah come on, the sergeants making it to knock out stage because most people didn't play their matches is a whole other issue. I just wanted to point out that it's well deserved for ted

[deleted_user0]

@deleted_user ah come on, the sergeants making it to knock out stage because most people didn't play their matches is a whole other issue. I just wanted to point out that it's well deserved for ted

you misread my post. my point was that if, due to how the brackets were made up, all top players are on the top side of the brackets, and all the other players in the lower bracket, then if a sgt makes it to ro8, he's by definition worthy of that spot, because he beat all the players he had to beat to get there. that's pretty much the argument you are making. im saying that youre right, but its irrelevant, because its simply a bad bracket.

i dont think anyone is saying tedere didn't deserve his spot in ro8, i think people are saying that were the brackets distributed differently, he wouldn't make it to the ro8. whereas someone like aiz, who is now out, would most likely make it to the ro8, while now he didnt.

[zoom]

Tardere12 was always one of the stronkest majors out there? Time to go back to your crack-pipe.