Newest Edition of ESOC Patch Coming Soon!

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Re: Newest Edition of ESOC Patch Coming Soon!

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Post by SoldieR »

Wow. Harsh critics.
Iro and sioux were boosted casue they were lacking a bit.

Russia and port and slightly dutch, were nerfed. It was fairly obvious that port and russia were a bit too good, especially if you didnt beat then before 15 mins.

French change may have been a bit unnecessary, but it was made because they were underplayed last tourney, which i think was just a small sample size, and sample error.
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Re: Newest Edition of ESOC Patch Coming Soon!

Post by supernapoleon »

I like the russia change. Russia was too good on non tp maps.
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Re: Newest Edition of ESOC Patch Coming Soon!

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Post by pecelot »

fightinfrenchman wrote:I agree with the change to the Dutch

Could you kindly give us an explanation of this thought-process?

Darwin_ wrote:
- Portuguese: 85f vills
HA. This will make no difference. Useless change. Better to give them 100f vills and buff cassas
- Ottomans: Mosque villager upgrades halved in cost
Ok. Would rather liked to have seen them give a vill each but whatever.
- Russians: Restored 270f vill batches
Awful change. Russia is fine if you fix france/germany and increase strelet train time or reduce boyars effect to 10%. 255f vills was one of the only changes on 2.0 that I really liked.

Yeah, +5 food per vill won't make any difference whatsoever, whereas –5 food per vill is an awful change :uglylol: :uglylol: :uglylol:
Also what do you mean with the Ottoman change?

Darwin_ wrote:
forgrin wrote:Who even is the EP team nowadays?

No one knows. From the looks of these changes, its prolly just some monkey with a keyboard.

You could be a bit more respectful, you know, as from what I've seen your PR is half as big as the alleged patch team members and I'm honestly glad most of your changes are ignored. Humility is key.
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Re: Newest Edition of ESOC Patch Coming Soon!

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Post by princeofkabul »

so much whining
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Re: Newest Edition of ESOC Patch Coming Soon!

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Post by Mr_Bramboy »

IAmSoldieR wrote:Wow. Harsh critics.
Iro and sioux were boosted casue they were lacking a bit.

Russia and port and slightly dutch, were nerfed. It was fairly obvious that port and russia were a bit too good, especially if you didnt beat then before 15 mins.

French change may have been a bit unnecessary, but it was made because they were underplayed last tourney, which i think was just a small sample size, and sample error.
Finally someone sensible. Lay down your pitchforks, everyone. The changed to Dutch may have been unnecessary but the best we can do now is hold a funeral and pay our last respects to Dutch.
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Re: Newest Edition of ESOC Patch Coming Soon!

Post by BrookG »

pecelot wrote:
Darwin_ wrote:
forgrin wrote:Who even is the EP team nowadays?

No one knows. From the looks of these changes, its prolly just some monkey with a keyboard.

You could be a bit more respectful, you know, as from what I've seen your PR is half as big as the alleged patch team members and I'm honestly glad most of your changes are ignored. Humility is key.


Why so offensive Pezet? The changes always have been pretty sudden and usually, the EP team doesn't agree unanimously. Of course, there will never be a perfect balance agreed by everyone in ESOC, however, in my opinion, some changes have not so good arguments for and seem a bit arbitrary. For instance, 5f isn't a great deal for France and Ports, but 50f vs 50w does affect Dutch a lot, as well as tweaks on Sioux' eco.
P.S. Trash talk about PR is neither humble nor a reason not to have an opinion.
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Re: Newest Edition of ESOC Patch Coming Soon!

Post by bwinner »

Great job !
I will critisize the citisicm :
Dutch nerf won't have a such big effect, it' exactly the same as if they had increase the cost from 300w/350f to 308w/350f, in vs which won't change anything seriously... you build like 2/3 bank per game (not considering the wagon), so that's ridiculous to think this is an harsh change.

I agree for sur with what they did to french and german.
Sioux and iro's change were needed for sur.
I agree with port change. Russia I am not sur, but that may be good.
I would have liked to see the WC trick been removed for azzy, but that's ok.
Great job anyway.

For people who were askibg who do the patch : mainly diarouga
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Re: Newest Edition of ESOC Patch Coming Soon!

Post by pecelot »

BrookG wrote:
pecelot wrote:
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You could be a bit more respectful, you know, as from what I've seen your PR is half as big as the alleged patch team members and I'm honestly glad most of your changes are ignored. Humility is key.


Why so offensive Pezet? The changes always have been pretty sudden and usually, the EP team doesn't agree unanimously. Of course, there will never be a perfect balance agreed by everyone in ESOC, however, in my opinion, some changes have not so good arguments for and seem a bit arbitrary. For instance, 5f isn't a great deal for France and Ports, but 50f vs 50w does affect Dutch a lot, as well as tweaks on Sioux' eco.
P.S. Trash talk about PR is neither humble nor a reason not to have an opinion.

It's not offensive towards the person, but his ideas and I don't think it's unreasonable. PR shouldn't really matter unless you make such brave statements like creating an entire list of changes — I think it's obvious that lower-ranked players get a different feeling of the game.
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Re: Newest Edition of ESOC Patch Coming Soon!

Post by princeofkabul »

why people don't realize dutch was a bad civ in RE mostly cause of the maps...
now they have plenty of food to work with in EP maps.
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Re: Newest Edition of ESOC Patch Coming Soon!

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Post by BrookG »

@pecelot Tbh it was rather offensive. However, the game isn't only for PR35+, it affects all the players in the community. All would like to have an equal stand at winning an opponent with the same PR.
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Re: Newest Edition of ESOC Patch Coming Soon!

Post by gh0st »

BrookG wrote:
pecelot wrote:
Show hidden quotes

You could be a bit more respectful, you know, as from what I've seen your PR is half as big as the alleged patch team members and I'm honestly glad most of your changes are ignored. Humility is key.


Why so offensive Pezet? The changes always have been pretty sudden and usually, the EP team doesn't agree unanimously. Of course, there will never be a perfect balance agreed by everyone in ESOC, however, in my opinion, some changes have not so good arguments for and seem a bit arbitrary. For instance, 5f isn't a great deal for France and Ports, but 50f vs 50w does affect Dutch a lot, as well as tweaks on Sioux' eco.
P.S. Trash talk about PR is neither humble nor a reason not to have an opinion.

If you think he was offensive, did you really read the post he was replying to? I mean he couldnt have been more humble for that type of post, from what i see. Seriously.
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Re: Newest Edition of ESOC Patch Coming Soon!

Post by ListlessSalmon »

On reflection (and after talking to better players) I think I like the changes. Still sad for Bakufu though.
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Re: Newest Edition of ESOC Patch Coming Soon!

Post by pecelot »

BrookG wrote:@pecelot Tbh it was rather offensive. However, the game isn't only for PR35+, it affects all the players in the community. All would like to have an equal stand at winning an opponent with the same PR.

I still stand by with what I said. I'm not necessarily against prohibiting lower-rated players from expressing their thoughts, but unfortunately I think this particular individual's ones are usually rather unreasonable.
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Re: Newest Edition of ESOC Patch Coming Soon!

Post by BrookG »

@gh0st Well yeah, he also made a separate thread too. But "I'm glad most of your changes are ignored" doesn't sound good to me. Nvm just end this discussion and switch to the notes.
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Re: Newest Edition of ESOC Patch Coming Soon!

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Post by Garja »



- Iroquois: +100f starting crates -200w +200f from RE patch seems a good compromise afterall
- Germans: Uhlans +5 HP Ok but Germans will be consistently superior to similar civs when they get 200w start.
- Portuguese: 85f vills very bad imo. Changes nothing from previous state where they were clearly the top civ. Only Germans can directly contest them now.
- Ottomans: Mosque villager upgrades halved in cost Ok change but doesn't fix any other Otto problem.
- Dutch: Bank cost changed from 300w/350f to 350w/300f Dutch will be underwhelming again. Should have changed bank limit instead
- Russians: Restored 270f vill batches Will be underwhelming again vs Fre/Ger I guess. Maybe will turn out to be ok tho
- French: +100f, 125f cdb Ok. Maybe even nerf rr to 30%.

- Removed CIR change Fair

Sioux
- 4v -> 5v Ok
- Teepee HP changed to 800 Bit too much?
- Teepee aura range increased by 50% Dunno, maybe too much?
- Teepees now have a gather rate bonus of 4% per teepee with a max of 20% per villager Ok I guess
- Infantry can now build teepees I don't like it at all. There is a card for that plus it is supposed to be an economic building now?!
- Changed aggressive policy card to increase gather rate bonus to 6% would have boosted Mustang card instead, much cooler and better balance result imo.

Team changes
- Thoroughbreds train time effect removed Ok
- Mass cavalry church tech cost increased to 600c, effect increased to 40% Don't see the point but ok.
- Genitours from +5 range to +4 range Fair
- "Way of the bow" card HP effect removed Ok I guess. Still would have preferred no range bonus
- Team 5 urumi -> 4 urumi Fair I guess
- Remove team schooners Nonsense, it's a terrible card even in 3v3.
- "Bakufu" home-city shipment Daimyo & Shogun training-rate effect decreased from 100% to 50%. Don't get the sense of this for team but ok I guess.
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Re: Newest Edition of ESOC Patch Coming Soon!

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Post by Aizamk »

These sioux changes :hmm:
oranges.
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Re: Newest Edition of ESOC Patch Coming Soon!

Post by tedere12 »

glad to see yumi getting what they deserve! can't wait to try the Ep sioux
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Re: Newest Edition of ESOC Patch Coming Soon!

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Post by gh0st »

btw, good job by EP team bringing much needed changes. Really appreciate the work they've done. :flowers: The game can never really be fully balanced, but the closer the better, there will always be guys whining about it tho.
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Re: Newest Edition of ESOC Patch Coming Soon!

Post by yurashic »

sdsanft wrote:- Iroquois: +100f starting crates Agree
- Germans: Uhlans +5 HP "Germans have seen much less play in recent times" because most maps in the last tournament were not suitable for them. Not sure.
- Portuguese: 85f vills Agree
- Ottomans: Mosque villager upgrades halved in cost Good, but it most likely won't matter in 1v1. You have to invest 100+50+125+300=575 wood and 100 gold to make vills at a rate of a normal civ. It is like 10-11 regular vills in food cost, so it takes about 5 min to pay off.
- Dutch: Bank cost changed from 300w/350f to 350w/300f Agree
- Russians: Restored 270f vill batches Disagree. Try to beat India, Port, new France, Otto, Aztec with Russia before nerfing.
- French: +100f, 125f cdb Disagree. Hi French mirror every series! French now win or do well in every MU with nerfs to Portuguese, Dutch and Russians...

- Removed CIR change Agree

Sioux
- 4v -> 5v Agree

- Teepee HP changed to 800
- Teepee aura range increased by 50%
- Teepees now have a gather rate bonus of 4% per teepee with a max of 20% per villager
- Infantry can now build teepees
- Changed aggressive policy card to increase gather rate bonus to 6%

Circus. Steel traps in 1 place for 250 wood. I think there should be circles around vills affected by teepees, just like Karni Mata.
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Re: Newest Edition of ESOC Patch Coming Soon!

Post by forgrin »

Since everyone's doing this now I suppose I will too (not that anyone listens to me).


- Iroquois: +100f starting crates This could help their age 2 plays as it'd speed their ageup. It probably won't help their problems with eco relating to no market ups + lack of free tp from RE though. They'll probably still be trash tier aside from some niches against slow civs.
- Germans: Uhlans +5 HP A compromise I guess. I always felt it was the maps (and the existing meta) that made Germans strong on earlier patches, not ulhans, but if people need a near-meaningless nerf to feel better then sure, why not.
- Portuguese: 85f vills lol k. I highly doubt this will have any noticeable effect other than maybe delaying their ageup a few seconds.
- Ottomans: Mosque villager upgrades halved in cost I don't play enough otto to know, but I assume this will be pointless in 1v1. If you get to the point where you need a mosque, you've probably lost already.
- Dutch: Bank cost changed from 300w/350f to 350w/300f The dutch balance seesaw continues. It'll probably restore them to a niche non-tp map pick. It's a shame this was the chosen change, there seem to be much better alternatives.
- Russians: Restored 270f vill batches It will probably be fine as they're decent against the current meta, but the change made them so nice... :(
- French: +100f, 125f cdb So basically this is +60f before age 2. It'll make their age 1 better which will probably be enough to get people back to the civ.
- Removed CIR change Probably a nerf to Ports and Dutch but nobody else will notice.

Sioux
- 4v -> 5v
- Teepee HP changed to 800
- Teepee aura range increased by 50%
- Teepees now have a gather rate bonus of 4% per teepee with a max of 20% per villager
- Infantry can now build teepees
- Changed aggressive policy card to increase gather rate bonus to 6%
This needs testing before anyone says anything about it.

Team changes
- Thoroughbreds train time effect removed Good nerf.
- Mass cavalry church tech cost increased to 600c, effect increased to 40% Ewwww
- Genitours from +5 range to +4 range Fair enough.
- "Way of the bow" card HP effect removed OK
- Team 5 urumi -> 4 urumi A cost increase might have been better honestly. To me at least, -2 urumi won't make much difference in 2v2 and it's not really relevant in 3v3 anyways.
- Remove team schooners ok...?
- "Bakufu" home-city shipment Daimyo & Shogun training-rate effect decreased from 100% to 50%. Did someone on the patch team get dayimo lamed recently?
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Re: Newest Edition of ESOC Patch Coming Soon!

Post by NekoBerk »

ListlessSalmon wrote:
Honestly maybe just RE patch on ESOC maps with some bugs fixed would be better.


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Re: Newest Edition of ESOC Patch Coming Soon!

Post by forgrin »

NekoBerk wrote:
ListlessSalmon wrote:
Honestly maybe just RE patch on ESOC maps with some bugs fixed would be better.


I support this :flowers: :flowers:

We do seem to be naturally gravitating towards that point now.
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Re: Newest Edition of ESOC Patch Coming Soon!

Post by forgrin »

IAmSoldieR wrote:Wow. Harsh critics.
Iro and sioux were boosted casue they were lacking a bit.

Russia and port and slightly dutch, were nerfed. It was fairly obvious that port and russia were a bit too good, especially if you didnt beat then before 15 mins.

French change may have been a bit unnecessary, but it was made because they were underplayed last tourney, which i think was just a small sample size, and sample error.


I think everyone agrees with the basis behind most of the changes, but it's the specific implementation that most are contesting.

As for French, I think they needed to stay nerfed. France was supposed to be a civ that could use build flexibility to turn a game to its advantage, not do a parallel build and win just because it's stronger by nature. There really hasn't been enough time to explore the nerfed France so I don't see why a buff was implemented to what was definitely an OP civ in the first EP iteration.
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Re: Newest Edition of ESOC Patch Coming Soon!

Post by momuuu »

princeofkabul wrote:why people don't realize dutch was a bad civ in RE mostly cause of the maps...
now they have plenty of food to work with in EP maps.

Theyre still shit. They really are. I cant even think of match ups they would win.
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Re: Newest Edition of ESOC Patch Coming Soon!

Post by momuuu »

DaRkNiTe1698 wrote:
Jerom wrote:
Show hidden quotes

It was so perfect. Beating stagecoach is going to be much harder now. Its a nerf dutch didnt deserve. The change doesnt mean shit in terms of villseconds really, what it does is give dutch that tiny bit of flexibility they need to not be a luck based civ and to deal with people getting the entire tp line and thus getting your civ bonus but cheaper.
Dutch was too strong...

The last serious interaction I had was me destroying your dutch with a random civ I sucked at because the civ is that shitty.

Every patch started out with 'dutch is definitely OP' (even ep1.0) and every time I thought people might be sorta right and they might be sorta fine. After RE and EP1.0 it turned out they were still unplayable. After EP2.0 my opinion of dutch was influenced by the community again, but in the end after playing tons of games as then and watching their performance in the tournament I dont get how you could conclude dutch is anywhere above average. A competent player is going to abuse their weaknesses properly. And even if you dont, their fortress isnt really that strong.

As on ep2.0, they lose to at least spain, british, aztec, russia. Germany is going to rape them again and they might have still been favored against dutch. Japan is a hard match up, china is hard to win, ports is honestly a rough match up, india is surprisingly hard, otto can really give you a hard time. The only 'easy' mu they had was vs france and due to this change theyre going to lose that again. Oh and dutch was one of the worst civs against iro and sioux so if those are buffed properly dutch is probably their victim. Theres not one easy win left after this patch, if theres mus they win at all, and there are many terrible match ups. I dont understand the logic behind the nerf.. Why did you nerf an average civ? Just because of team players? Why did you not take out the 5th bank which is pretty close to irrelevant in 1v1?

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