LordRaphael vs Mitoe

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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: LordRaphael vs Mitoe

Post by Goodspeed »

Question: The Azzy mirror meta is a joke right now. Is this because people are tunnel visioning into the same build every game or is there actually a severe lack of options?
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Re: LordRaphael vs Mitoe

Post by tedere12 »

Goodspeed wrote:Question: The Azzy mirror meta is a joke right now. Is this because people are tunnel visioning into the same build every game or is there actually a severe lack of options?

I think the aztec mirror is a matchup where variety of strategies can be seen. We have seen military shipments coyote spawn and the one that comes ahead wins, we've seen greedier builds with 5 villagers / 600 wood stagecoach (diarouga vs garja, mitoe vs diarouga on the 1v1 invitational) and we've also seen warrior priest booms with age III followup (kynesie vs kaiserklein, diarouga vs kaiserklein, somppu vs aizamk on twc civs tourney). It appears to be a fun and exciting mu.
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Re: LordRaphael vs Mitoe

Post by Goodspeed »

:hmm: I must've missed all the good games then.
Coy seem quite dominant in the MU either way. That's not a problem iyo?
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Re: LordRaphael vs Mitoe

Post by lordraphael »

Goodspeed wrote::hmm: I must've missed all the good games then.
Coy seem quite dominant in the MU either way. That's not a problem iyo?

because pikes dont counter them. Its one of their perks. and mace coyo is just strictly superior in 90 % of cases.anyways I think theres pretty much 3 options you go for the WP boom build which opens up different build for your opponent int return, you 3 700 600 and usually 10 mace afterwards ( I think I did 5 vills, but thats infact to greedy most of the time, only did it because ithought mitoe would do the same and id win in the long run), or you try to do a timing like mitoe did and punish greedy play. Didnt work here for him but for example when i played h2o in the finals a very similar build worked like a charm there.

Its a bland mu overall , but if you not really familiar with azzy or dont know how to counter them properly its pretty easy to mirror them and still be fine vs a more experienced azzy player I think.
breeze wrote: they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
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Re: LordRaphael vs Mitoe

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Puma do counter them pretty fair, even tho multiplier vs light infantry can be reviewed (together with other changes). I know from experience that Mitoe should have won that fight if only he microed properly.
It's hard to find mirrors with many strats possible. I can only think of 2 or 3.
Aztec mirror is very much ZvZ I think.
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Re: LordRaphael vs Mitoe

Post by Hazza54321 »

coy mirror is just a boring MU, no idea why anyone would want to click in to it willingly
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Re: LordRaphael vs Mitoe

Post by Garja »

Well if you dont know the MU of course
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Re: LordRaphael vs Mitoe

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Post by deleted_user »

Brit mirror also has lots of nuance no one appreciate it :(
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Re: LordRaphael vs Mitoe

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Everything has nuance as you get more specialized. Doesn't make it interesting to viewers though. When there is one unit type being made I have to consider it a balance issue.
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Re: LordRaphael vs Mitoe

Post by kami_ryu »

Well if it's only the mirror that's a problem, then raise the Puma's multiplier vs LI. Only the puma.
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Re: LordRaphael vs Mitoe

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Goodspeed wrote:Everything has nuance as you get more specialized. Doesn't make it interesting to viewers though. When there is one unit type being made I have to consider it a balance issue.

It just happens to be the best/most useful unit, pretty much like in every other mirror MU.
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Re: LordRaphael vs Mitoe

Post by Hazza54321 »

maybe increase lb multiplier vs heavy inf but reduce dps
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Re: LordRaphael vs Mitoe

Post by Mitoe »

@princeofkabul
Personally I don’t think China/Dutch is "balanced." I only played it because I thought I could cheese out a win (I was wrong).
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Re: LordRaphael vs Mitoe

Post by gibson »

Hazza54321 wrote:coy mirror is just a boring MU, no idea why anyone would want to click in to it willingly
Yea especially when you could pick like brit and take the free win
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Re: LordRaphael vs Mitoe

Post by deleted_user »

gibson wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:coy mirror is just a boring MU, no idea why anyone would want to click in to it willingly
Yea especially when you could pick like brit and take the free win

On indo?
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Re: LordRaphael vs Mitoe

Post by zoom »

I bet no nerd has even tried training Pew-mah.
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Re: LordRaphael vs Mitoe

Post by Goodspeed »

Garja wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:Everything has nuance as you get more specialized. Doesn't make it interesting to viewers though. When there is one unit type being made I have to consider it a balance issue.

It just happens to be the best/most useful unit, pretty much like in every other mirror MU.
Sure, every MU has one unit that is most popular. In most MUs this is RI because RI is generally slightly stronger than other unit types in AoE3. But I don't see the same kind of unit dominance in other MUs that I see in Brit and Azzy mirrors.
It's not necessarily a problem though, I agree with that. I just thought I noticed a pattern in Azzy mirrors and wondered if we need to do something about it. But if there are other options than forward base coy spam I'm not as worried.
zoom wrote:I bet no nerd has even tried training Pew-mah.
I'm assuming they did. The reasons this doesn't work, I imagine, are that pikes don't hard counter coy, do very poorly against the WC and 1 mace shipment destroys any pike-based strat.
Then again, it's hard to imagine a 700w + 5 coy holding a 6 + 5 puma rush if both players built forward.
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Re: LordRaphael vs Mitoe

Post by Mitoe »

I don't think Aztec mirrors have a problem with unit compositions. It's just that coyotes are really strong early (and also because a lot of people don't play enough Aztec or Aztec mirrors enough to know about the other options), but you do have to make all 3 types of units if the game goes longer. I've even seen some FF or semi-FF builds work in Aztec mirrors. I don't think it's as straightforward as you guys seem to think it is.

And the 11-puma rush is actually a cheese you do need to watch out for (and can be quite strong), but it's easily scouted and countered if you just check your opponents gold mine to see if they're gathering a lot of gold after they place their warhut, and before they have units to punish your warchief or treasure guardians scouting.



I don't think the fact that one Brit matchup consists of only one unit should mean that we consider changing the civ. It's the only matchup in the game where you want to avoid making other unit types--or I can't think of any others off the top of my head at least. If anything it's uniqueness in that sense means it's just fine as-is.

I like playing and watching Brit mirrors anyway, I think the fact that you're both more-or-less forced to do the same thing means that you need to focus on smaller details a lot more than you do in other matchups. It actually has a lot of depth to it, contrary to popular belief. Whether you cut vills in age 1 to age earlier to get map control, or for some mid-game timings, or to get back into the game after falling behind, is a lot more prevalent in this matchup than other matchups. In some niche situations you even want to consider cutting vill production entirely once you have enough vills to produce from 3 raxes simultaneously.

Cav start isn't even bad, either. Particularly if your opponent opts to spread vills across the map in transition to construct manors outside of their base, anticipating a standard musket start from you and trying to minimize idle time in the mid-game to get out a few extra units for a timing.
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Re: LordRaphael vs Mitoe

Post by momuuu »

Its entirely possible that people mass coyotes because maces are strong actually. I'm pretty sure at least part of musk wars is that hussars are really strong too, combined with of course longbows/xbows being slightly disappointing. It turns out that if you make a decent number of longbows in brit vs brit, you'll give your opponent the opportunity to mix in hussars without weakening his army composition which means that he gets an extra advantage in raiding without having a disadvantage in return. So in the end nobody makes longbows so that nobody can make hussars and then you have musk vs musk.

In aztec vs aztec, I can possibly see maces countering pumas too hard, so that you can't realistically fight against coyotes with pumas. If you were to make pumas against coyotes, you give the other aztec player the excuse to mix in the very strong maces and then realistically you'd have to start mixing in coyotes yourself but at that point you're probably stuck with the worse basis in terms of army composition. So people end up making mostly coyotes as a strong base and then you kinda want to avoid mixing in too many pumas as that gives your opponent a reason to get the maces and thus do a lot of poke ranged damage.

But honestly its not all bad and also not as one sided. The only problem I have with aztec mirrors is that it is really hard for a viewer to tell apart the different coyotes in some coyote vs coyote clusterfuck, so many games turn into both players making coyotes and then when the big engagement happens the viewer just looks at the military pop/score to get any sort of clue with regards to what the fuck is happening in the fight. Doesn't make for the greatest viewer experience.
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Re: LordRaphael vs Mitoe

Post by Hazza54321 »

problem with starting "pew_mah", is that you can potentially get 10 mace'd
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Re: LordRaphael vs Mitoe

Post by tedere12 »

just send big button against 11 puma start.
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Re: LordRaphael vs Mitoe

Post by lordraphael »

momuuu wrote:Its entirely possible that people mass coyotes because maces are strong actually. I'm pretty sure at least part of musk wars is that hussars are really strong too, combined with of course longbows/xbows being slightly disappointing. It turns out that if you make a decent number of longbows in brit vs brit, you'll give your opponent the opportunity to mix in hussars without weakening his army composition which means that he gets an extra advantage in raiding without having a disadvantage in return. So in the end nobody makes longbows so that nobody can make hussars and then you have musk vs musk.

In aztec vs aztec, I can possibly see maces countering pumas too hard, so that you can't realistically fight against coyotes with pumas. If you were to make pumas against coyotes, you give the other aztec player the excuse to mix in the very strong maces and then realistically you'd have to start mixing in coyotes yourself but at that point you're probably stuck with the worse basis in terms of army composition. So people end up making mostly coyotes as a strong base and then you kinda want to avoid mixing in too many pumas as that gives your opponent a reason to get the maces and thus do a lot of poke ranged damage.

But honestly its not all bad and also not as one sided. The only problem I have with aztec mirrors is that it is really hard for a viewer to tell apart the different coyotes in some coyote vs coyote clusterfuck, so many games turn into both players making coyotes and then when the big engagement happens the viewer just looks at the military pop/score to get any sort of clue with regards to what the fuck is happening in the fight. Doesn't make for the greatest viewer experience.

also not the greatest experience for the player. For example in that game vs mitoe i had no idea how the fight was going until the fight was pretty much over. Micro in thosewars is very limited and usually the game is decided by the positioning and who gets his WC in the best spot to tank.
breeze wrote: they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
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Re: LordRaphael vs Mitoe

Post by Garja »

well position is key in every battle, especially meelee ones. Blue and cyan colors definetly didn't help there.
As for why coyos are the chosen unit is mainly because they can do eco damage, they can run away from the counter and force an engagement on the countered.
They just fully satisfy all those 3 conditions while the other units don't.
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Re: LordRaphael vs Mitoe

Post by SoldieR »

Isn't that every cav unit in every game ever?
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Re: LordRaphael vs Mitoe

Post by Garja »

Yep. But some other civs have musks and/or particular eco, hence why Jap/Brit mirror are mostly musk wars. Also China and Spain have rather solid FF so cav doesn't have much opportunity to make damage.
German/Dutch mirrors pretty much always result in cav start.
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