Finals map pool thread

[Hazza54321]

since common sense isnt working.


Please have mercy on us, spare us these maps, and we will forever be in your debt!

[deleted_user]

Just tried parallel rivers, tibet and klondike... Hazza isn t wrong . They aren t in the Team Map pool for some reason..
Change at least parrallel rivers, it's really the worst. Others are just not standard.

Yes exactly you are complaining because maps are not standard, its not like something is wrong them, its just that you don't like them.

The map pool should pay homage to competitive spirit. Is there anything strictly wrong with non standard maps? Not really, not isolated, but you're only hinging on that one fact.

Consider: a seven count map pool consisting of arguably zero standard maps, none of which except one, maybe two even appear in the current ESOC Team Maps set (the maps team players know and play on) for a tournament finals. Is that in the spirit of competition?

It's not a typical set. You might say, "well, why is 'typical' better?" Consider, really, the only three configurations for maps assuming tp/no tp is even:

1) all standard maps
2) no standard maps
3) mix of standard and non standard maps

Option 3 is the most common-sense sensible, no? I'm not talking about proofs just sense. Descartes would say we grasp it with our intellect. I get that "standard" is subjective but not by much -- only by a handful of ESOC maps I'd reckon, when publicly scrutinized.

The current pool is erring most toward option 2 which is alarming and should be discussed! I don't think there's anything wrong with Malaysia, Tibet, Indonesia, Klondike on their own. I think there's something wrong with not a single Arkansas, Hudson, Adirondacks, Kamchatka.

To answer what you keep looking for, no, there are no arguments for disallowing a single map in question, but that's not the argument being made in the first place.

[zoom]

Less usual maps are integrally important to tournament play, and players should not be able to escape them altogether. They should never dominate, however. Exceptions to this are highly unusual.

[zoom]

Parallel Rivers just sucks though

I don't understand why everyone hates that map. For 1 Vs 1, I mean.

[princeofkabul]

Just tried parallel rivers, tibet and klondike... Hazza isn t wrong . They aren t in the Team Map pool for some reason..
Change at least parrallel rivers, it's really the worst. Others are just not standard.

Yes exactly you are complaining because maps are not standard, its not like something is wrong them, its just that you don't like them.

Why you think he is complaining because maps are not standard? He is complaining exactly because something is wrong with them. I don't understand your logic at all. It's completely reverse to everyone else's views. So either you as 1% is right about this which i doubt. And the rest 99% is right which is most likely right. I'll make it very simple for you.

1v1 map = play 1v1
team map = play team

I don't think you're this delusional but too stubborn to make it right for some reason. (reminds me of Chicks).
Your approach will scatter good players from your events, trust me on this.

I also understand changing it this late is not good for tournament setting. I do think this map pool is an obvious mistake from admins though. That is up to you if you want to keep ranting with your arguements which were proven wrong billion times, or come forward and take responsibility and do another and improved event for the community which I really hope you will continue doing. Flexible and understanding admin is always better for events for small community like this since the players makes the tournament happen as much as you do. You can always look for another solution than make everything so absolute. Our series vs ramexes was also screwed by incomplete UI maps and no one really gave a shit.

[Garja]

I dont thnk he has problems with unstandard maps. I't probably just that he doesn't like something about those maps or that they aren't included in team map set so he didnt practiced on them.

[Aykin Haraka]

If 4 players of the finals want to remove one or some maps of the map pool, I do not really see why admins just do not change, who is playing? casters / viewers or players? you have the answer, so why are you relucatant?
I definitively do not see the problem of changing the maps for the finalists

It's not like we are saying just remove ALL maps for other, no we just want one or two changes^^

[zoom]

Actually, unlike with map-sets, it is generally important not to let players choose the maps in tournaments. If there are valid complaints, on the other hand, the case might be different. Almost all maps being unusual is one such complaint, I think. A certain map being practically unplayable were another.

[deleted_user]

Parallel Rivers just sucks though

I don't understand why everyone hates that map. For 1 Vs 1, I mean.

GUA beat me on it for one.

[zoom]

Ah! A good a reason as any, I see.

[princeofcarthage]

The map pool should pay homage to competitive spirit. Is there anything strictly wrong with non standard maps? Not really, not isolated, but you're only hinging on that one fact.

If both the players have equal starting resources, with all the other features of map being equal for everyone is that not in competitive spirit?

Consider: a seven count map pool consisting of arguably zero standard maps, none of which except one, maybe two even appear in the current ESOC Team Maps set (the maps team players know and play on) for a tournament finals. Is that in the spirit of competition?

3 maps from current map pool are in Team map pools.

It's not a typical set. You might say, "well, why is 'typical' better?" Consider, really, the only three configurations for maps assuming tp/no tp is even:

1) all standard maps
2) no standard maps
3) mix of standard and non standard maps

Option 3 is the most common-sense sensible, no? I'm not talking about proofs just sense. Descartes would say we grasp it with our intellect. I get that "standard" is subjective but not by much -- only by a handful of ESOC maps I'd reckon, when publicly scrutinized.

The current pool is erring most toward option 2 which is alarming and should be discussed! I don't think there's anything wrong with Malaysia, Tibet, Indonesia, Klondike on their own. I think there's something wrong with not a single Arkansas, Hudson, Adirondacks, Kamchatka.

Saying again Thar desert, Malaysia, Baja California is from team map pools which means it is 3 standard and 4 non standard map pool which I would argue is erring towards point 3 and not 2.

To answer what you keep looking for, no, there are no arguments for disallowing a single map in question, but that's not the argument being made in the first place.

Why you think he is complaining because maps are not standard? He is complaining exactly because something is wrong with them. I don't understand your logic at all. It's completely reverse to everyone else's views. So either you as 1% is right about this which i doubt. And the rest 99% is right which is most likely right. I'll make it very simple for you.

I am saying again please explain what is wrong with maps apart from being disliked by 99% of community?

1v1 map = play 1v1
team map = play team

I don't think you're this delusional but too stubborn to make it right for some reason. (reminds me of Chicks).
Your approach will scatter good players from your events, trust me on this.

Actually I am giving in to player demands and making changes but you will always be disappointed if you expect answers instantly without giving us time to discuss things.

I also understand changing it this late is not good for tournament setting. I do think this map pool is an obvious mistake from admins though. That is up to you if you want to keep ranting with your arguements which were proven wrong billion times, or come forward and take responsibility and do another and improved event for the community which I really hope you will continue doing.
Flexible and understanding admin is always better for events for small community like this since the players makes the tournament happen as much as you do.

I am always looking for feedback and trying to improve always but you also have to understand that some decisions can't be simply taken because of player preferences. Also if you are going to argue that "map is too small" "hunts are less" etc, I am saying again these cannot be valid reasons to remove a map from map pool. So again tell me which of my arguments have been proven wrong and how?

You can always look for another solution than make everything so absolute. Our series vs ramexes was also screwed by incomplete UI maps and no one really gave a shit.

I am not sure exactly as to what happened but no one approached me with this.

[princeofcarthage]

Also I don't get the logic, if parallel rivers is bad, you are free to not play on it, since finals is bo5 and you have 7 maps to choose from, you can always ignore that map. Like I replied in my previous post there are 3 maps from pool maps which you can play on so in case of 5th game, you only end playing on 2 non standard maps and 3 standard maps.

[zoom]

Unplayable maps should never be part of the pool, though. Is it playable?

[princeofcarthage]

Unplayable maps should never be part of the pool, though. Is it playable?

Which map you are talking about?

[zoom]

Parallel Rivers

[princeofkabul]

just spawned 2v2 parallel Rivers and it spawns like a 1v1 map.@princeofcarthage if there's not a fix in custom maps it's literally is unplayable for 2v2, because of the distances.

[princeofkabul]

To be fair all those 3 maps have team spawns took in consideration. I can see why Klondike and Parallel Rivers can raise some issues for team (mostly because players starting positions) but Tibet in 2v2 should be more than fine. Besides Parallel River is not too different from an upside-down Bengal in 2v2.
With that said I can't imagine playing on PL chokes with the huge lag that will inevitably happen.

Do you know if there's a fix for parallel rivers for 2v2? in normal 2v2 map it spawns as 1v1 map (small map compared to 2v2).

[princeofcarthage]

Again you are proving my point, small maps maybe a design choice. I am not being stubborn as I already added 2 maps to the map pool, you are being stubborn in adapting to different situations and playing in uncomfortable positions.

Small map -> remove it
Low hunt map -> remove it
Chokes -> remove it
Heavy water -> remove it
Non standard starting position -> remove it
Deccan -> keep it

Do you see a connection and trend here?

[japanesegeneral]

I think it is just a different version of a 2vs2 . One player has a lot of information about the other players actions and treasures. It is his job to communicate what the other does while the player that is able to play gets the operative management of the game.

[princeofkabul]

Again you are proving my point, small maps maybe a design choice. I am not being stubborn as I already added 2 maps to the map pool, you are being stubborn in adapting to different situations and playing in uncomfortable positions.

Small map -> remove it
Low hunt map -> remove it
Chokes -> remove it
Heavy water -> remove it
Non standard starting position -> remove it
Deccan -> keep it

Do you see a connection and trend here?

You simply don't get it do you. There are small and big map for 1v1 eg. Painted desert and Siberia. Then there's same small and big for 2v2 and 3v3 maps aswell, using the same maps as an example. Map is growing in size exponentially depending of the game mode(1v1,2v2,3v3). The issue is that Parallel River spawns in 1v1 size standards even if it's 2v2 map. in 3v3 it would spawn in 1v1 standards probably aswell. Kapish? If you don't see this as an issue for 2v2 team tournament and rather see this as player's map preferences maybe you shouldn't be the one choosing the maps honestly. Players can't build anything forward in the map because they're in range of opponents starting tc lol.

[Garja]

Both rated and obs versions if parallel rivers should have 2v2 size.

[princeofkabul]

i spawned it multiple times and it's like 1v1 map

[Garja]

Nah. Bear in mind rush distance is close because of map layout.

[Kaiserklein]

1) Team map pool is made from favorite maps of team players rather than from any other perspective. ( Idk but I would like to believe this lol )
-- Each map when made by riki or garja is made by keeping team and 1v1 in mind afaik.

No, some maps really aren't made for team. For example, try to spawn wadmalaw in 2v2 and you will see it's clearly bugged, as essentially no one has a hunt. So I don't know about parallel rivers and etc, but it's definitely possible that these maps aren't ready for team yet.
Not every map is included in the team maps set, and that's sometimes for reasons other than just "team players don't like it".

Now about the fact that the map pool is really non-standard: of course, as long as the maps are fair and suitable for team play, you could think it's fine to let the finals be played on them. But usually you try to have a mix of everything for the finals, which includes a fair share of standard maps. Having only non standard map means that "standard" skills won't be displayed.

[princeofcarthage]

@Kaiserklein again saying original map pool had 3 standard maps and 4 non standard maps, so really arguing that it is not a mix is incorrect