ATP should be nerfed

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No Flag howlingwolfpaw
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Re: ATP should be nerfed

Post by howlingwolfpaw »

forgrin wrote:
howlingwolfpaw wrote:
Also to add a question, doesn't the revenue of the TP depend on the length of route and number of post? so fewer post have more res per trip. So isnt having more TP a nerf since it cost more to get less from the trade line?


Only depends on length, plus TPs (with some variation) will have similar resource incomes regardless of the route length because shorter route = more trips around to each TP. It always works out to roughly the same resources/min.



so what does it matter if its a longer route with 5 or a smaller one with 3? seems like its all about even but having more TP means you have to invest more for the line?
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Germany yemshi
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Re: ATP should be nerfed

Post by yemshi »

Should line X be 100m long and Line Y 200m the amount of res is calculated thusly:
Amount of starting XP=1xp/s
length =100(200)m
Travois moves with 3 speed = 3m/s.
So the travois passes line X in 33s, line Y in 66s.
Should both lines have 1 TP the amount of XP you get from that TP is 33xp\66xp per pass. But since that also is the case for the same line but with 2 TP's a TP still gives 33xp. Should you happen to have two TP's you have 66xp/122xp in still 33s/66s.
=The more TP's the more xp since the amount of TP's doesn't effect the amount of XP per pass.
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Re: ATP should be nerfed

Post by Hazza54321 »

sdsanft wrote:Tbh I think it's a problem with civ balance, despite what everyone argues, esoc maps aren't that different then re maps in terms of tps, the difference is that port, Spain and Russia were all buffed quite a bit on EP compared to RE. The fact that port can boom from 2tcs and 5tps and the entire investment has paid off before like 7min and they have zero food problems because they have the whole map is just lame.

Pretty much this, this is certainly not they way ports should be designed at all
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France Rikikipu
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Re: ATP should be nerfed

Post by Rikikipu »

You need to take into account the reset animation of the travois.
That's why 4 tps on mendocino = 3tps on High Plains
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=7091&p=161010&hilit=Tp#p161010
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Brazil lemmings121
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Re: ATP should be nerfed

Post by lemmings121 »

Mitoe wrote:
lemmings121 wrote:ATP is fine, too many esoc maps having 4-5tps maps is a problem.

Do you think ATP is a problem on 4-5 TP maps?
The card is only viable on those maps, and maybe a few 3 TP maps, and if you consider it a problem on those maps then it's a problem with the card not the maps.



I mean, atp on 5tp maps is like schooners on indonesia, or 2 caravels in a pound in new england. imo is totally fine, balance is map dependent and it should remain this way, x7 arkansas is boring.
my point is that you only see one map like indonesia in a bo7, you probably should also see only one 5tp map in a serie, since it affects the balance heavily.
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No Flag deleted_user0
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Re: ATP should be nerfed

Post by deleted_user0 »

Yup, i agree with lemmings on this tbh.
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Re: ATP should be nerfed

Post by momuuu »

The only thing thats clearly bullshit is ports on a 5 tp map against an opponent that doesnt even attempt to steal tps. Spain atp doesnt seem OP to me tbh.

So we're talking about nerfing a card that clearly gives more options to some civs (spain gets a 2nd viable build) which is only a problem on maps that cant be considered even close to standard or balanced. Civ balance on 4/5 TP maps is a mess anyways, just like how civ balance on indonesia is terrible.

In that sense I find this discussion extremely shortsighted, as if people just, once again, decided that something was objectively too strong.
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Tuvalu gibson
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Re: ATP should be nerfed

Post by gibson »

Jerom wrote:The only thing thats clearly bullshit is ports on a 5 tp map against an opponent that doesnt even attempt to steal tps. Spain atp doesnt seem OP to me tbh.

So we're talking about nerfing a card that clearly gives more options to some civs (spain gets a 2nd viable build) which is only a problem on maps that cant be considered even close to standard or balanced. Civ balance on 4/5 TP maps is a mess anyways, just like how civ balance on indonesia is terrible.

In that sense I find this discussion extremely shortsighted, as if people just, once again, decided that something was objectively too strong.
it's not even that lol. People want a card that tons of civs have to be nerfed based on two civs on like 3 maps that's only op if played against incorrectly......
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Re: ATP should be nerfed

Post by momuuu »

gibson wrote:
Jerom wrote:The only thing thats clearly bullshit is ports on a 5 tp map against an opponent that doesnt even attempt to steal tps. Spain atp doesnt seem OP to me tbh.

So we're talking about nerfing a card that clearly gives more options to some civs (spain gets a 2nd viable build) which is only a problem on maps that cant be considered even close to standard or balanced. Civ balance on 4/5 TP maps is a mess anyways, just like how civ balance on indonesia is terrible.

In that sense I find this discussion extremely shortsighted, as if people just, once again, decided that something was objectively too strong.
it's not even that lol. People want a card that tons of civs have to be nerfed based on two civs on like 3 maps that's only op if played against incorrectly......

Yeah, people just go with the insanity of the day it seems.
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Re: ATP should be nerfed

Post by britishmusketeer »

Jerom wrote:The only thing thats clearly bullshit is ports on a 5 tp map against an opponent that doesnt even attempt to steal tps. Spain atp doesnt seem OP to me tbh.

So we're talking about nerfing a card that clearly gives more options to some civs (spain gets a 2nd viable build) which is only a problem on maps that cant be considered even close to standard or balanced. Civ balance on 4/5 TP maps is a mess anyways, just like how civ balance on indonesia is terrible.

In that sense I find this discussion extremely shortsighted, as if people just, once again, decided that something was objectively too strong.

Spain atp ff was good even on re. If the map has 5 tps you basically have to take 2 tps just so that the opponent doesn't auto-win if they send atp. This is obviously fine for french since they are quite happy taking 2 tps anyway but if you are brit or dutch or something you have to sacrifice your boom/bo to make them which is a huge deal.
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Re: ATP should be nerfed

Post by momuuu »

Not like Brits and Dutch are at all viable civs on High plains. That's the thing, 4 TP maps and the two 5 TP maps especially just dont allow for serious balance discussions because the balance on those maps at the moment is complete bullshit.
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Re: ATP should be nerfed

Post by kami_ryu »

From what I've seen from replays (bear in mind I'm still learning the ropes of this game) is that ATP give TPs a big buff in HP and also some attack, so taking down an Advanced Trade Post is actually quite a hassle. For a building which costs 120 wood, the other guy really has to work hard to get rid of it.

I really like map diversity though. Let me tell you something from the perspective of a new guy: all the maps are great! I've had fun games on all of them. Sometimes I don't get hunts next to my TC but I just kind of look for them and then use them. Maybe at a higher level that matters but so far I don't think it's made a big impact on my games.
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Re: ATP should be nerfed

Post by Darwin_ »

Its not the maps lol. You can do ATP on maps like arkansas, a map with a normal amount of tp's and tp's that are very exposed, and it is still wicked good.
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Re: ATP should be nerfed

Post by Darwin_ »

Jerom wrote:Not like Brits and Dutch are at all viable civs on High plains. That's the thing, 4 TP maps and the two 5 TP maps especially just dont allow for serious balance discussions because the balance on those maps at the moment is complete bullshit.

It's only bullshit because of how efficient and good ATP is. Also, on most maps, tp strats are good against those civs, its not just high plains and other high-tp maps.
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Re: ATP should be nerfed

Post by deleted_user0 »

Darwin_ wrote:Its not the maps lol. You can do ATP on maps like arkansas, a map with a normal amount of tp's and tp's that are very exposed, and it is still wicked good.


lol how? the other guy just takes the middle tp and suddenly you are fucked?
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Re: ATP should be nerfed

Post by Mitoe »

Darwin_ wrote:
Jerom wrote:Not like Brits and Dutch are at all viable civs on High plains. That's the thing, 4 TP maps and the two 5 TP maps especially just dont allow for serious balance discussions because the balance on those maps at the moment is complete bullshit.

It's only bullshit because of how efficient and good ATP is. Also, on most maps, tp strats are good against those civs, its not just high plains and other high-tp maps.

Exactly. Just try to effectively do a stagecoach boom with ANY civ without ATP without being punished by a civ of similar strength in Colonial/early fortress. It doesn't work unless your opponent refuses to adapt and just lets you get away with it. And of course if you just let your opponent get away with something like this they're going to have an advantage.

The strength of ATP is that it removes the vulnerability of stagecoach booming almost entirely. To put it into perspective, an ATP is similar to an Agra Fort in terms of stats. You will almost always lose at least as much resources in units sieging it (like 1-2 pikemen, or more, for example) as it costs to construct it. And killing 2 of them takes more time than killing someone's town center and a few houses surrounding it because of the distance between the TPs and the sheer amount of hp they have. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, you are investing a card into this after all, and slowing down your overall build by likely 20-30 seconds at least, but so far it seems like you gain a lot more from doing this than not doing it. At least as the civs that can afford to do it.

This is a lot like the whole water balance discussion. Some people think it's easy to counter water, or at least possible, some people think it's simply unbeatable. Most of the people who think it's unbeatable either don't understand how to play against it, or simply make no attempt to play differently.

Maps with large TP lines by nature require you to change the way you play. Why is this such a problem for people? Is learning to play a new strategy so difficult or unfun that you'd rather play on Arkansas clones for 100 games in a row?

Jerom wrote:In that sense I find this discussion extremely shortsighted, as if people just, once again, decided that something was objectively too strong.

Same. Only for very different reasons.
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Re: ATP should be nerfed

Post by momuuu »

Darwin_ wrote:Its not the maps lol. You can do ATP on maps like arkansas, a map with a normal amount of tp's and tp's that are very exposed, and it is still wicked good.

not really.
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Re: ATP should be nerfed

Post by deleted_user »

Yeah maybe on maps where the 3 tps spawn equally far from each tc but on Arkansas you can't defend the 3rd tp and then you spent a card to get a net gain of 1 tp and in turn sacrifice a lot of tempo.
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Re: ATP should be nerfed

Post by Darwin_ »

If you are playing ports/russia you can defend the third tp, though it is quite hard and risky. ATP is a pretty big investment and risk, but it delays your opponent and also forces them to spend resources to kill the tp, and most of the time loosing more resources in units than the tp is actually worth due to the ranged attack.
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India drsingh
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Re: ATP should be nerfed

Post by drsingh »

What if ATP doubles the build time of TP...
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Re: ATP should be nerfed

Post by momuuu »

There are very few civs that would, realistically speaking, not be able to steal 1/3 TPs or 1/4, maybe the only ones that could struggle are Japan and India.
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Re: ATP should be nerfed

Post by milku3459 »

With TP attack you can't just send some spare pikes you're not using anyway to just casually siege stuff. You need to bring your whole army over.
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United States of America noissance
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Re: ATP should be nerfed

Post by noissance »

What if u made TPS tak longer to build when u send ATP, and get rid of the HP buff and just give it attack.
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Re: ATP should be nerfed

Post by kami_ryu »

ATPs are pretty much mini-agra ports which are also 4 vills, for 120w.

It might honestly be strong even on maps with only 3 TPs. I'm not sure. But it's good. Very good;
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Re: ATP should be nerfed

Post by Garja »

Still doesnt hold a rush.
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