What the patch notes for EP 3.0 should've been

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United States of America Darwin_
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What the patch notes for EP 3.0 should've been

Post by Darwin_ »

I am not alone in feeling that the newest official patch notes released for EP 3.0 are not the best in terms of effect or method or balancing. :cry: Here is what I have talked with people about what EP 3.0 should be:

General Changes:
• Native warriors from treasures have .25 multiplier vs. villagers
• Cavalry archer speed increased to 7.00 (from 6.75)
• Rattan shield given coyoteman tag
• Advanced Trading posts card effect changed to +50% hp, -50% cost

Aztec
• War Chief fire pit bug removed

Chinese
• TEAM 5 manchu cost increased to 1000 coin
• Old Han reforms cost increase reduced to 20%
• +1 food crate

Dutch
• Bank limit set to 4
• TEAM infantry hitpoints team effect removed
• Coffee trade upgrade no longer reduces unit speed, now costs 300 food
• Ruyter cost changed to 45 food-65 coin, from 30-75
• Tulip Speculation effect increased to 25%, from 15%

French
• Cuirassier now scales off of colonial stats. New stats: 25 hand/siege attack, 417 HP
• Thoroughbreds shipment effect changed to -10% cost and -10% train time (from 15 and 15) and now costs 1000 food.
• Courer Des Bois range resist reduced to 30%
• +1 food crate

German
• Uhlan Range Resistance increased to 40%, from 30%
• War Wagon train time reduced to 48 seconds, from 60.

Iroquois
• Steel traps added
• +1 food crate
• "Wise Woman" politician now also gives 1 villager when advancing to colonial, up from just 200f, 100w, 100c.

India
• Sowar HP increased to 235, from 225
• Camel Attack decreased to +20% attack
• Dravidian Martial Arts increased to +20% hand attack
• TEAM 5 urumi cost increased to 1000f

Japan
• Golden Pavilion bonus now effects base stats, not upgraded stats
• Yumi attack card reduced to +15% effect
• +1 food crate

Ottoman
• Villager training techs cost halved
• Mosque cost decreased to 100w, xp trickle increased to 1.0/sec

Portuguese
• Cassador ranged attack increased to 18 (from 17), cost changed to 70f, 45c
• Genitours range increase reduced to +3 from +5, now also gives +10% attack
• Villager cost reverted back to 100f
• +1 food crate

Russia
• Strelet train time increased to 35 seconds, from 30
• Boyars effect decreased to 10%, from 15%

Sioux
• Cetan Bow cost changed to 100f, speed increased to 4.5
• Wakina Rifle speed increased to 4.5
• +1 wood crate

Discuss! :flowers:
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Re: What the patch notes for EP 3.0 should've been

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Post by Mitoe »

Honestly there just needs to be a public beta period between tournaments where changes are made every few weeks and everyone can help test them.

And tbh many of the changes you listed here don't really make any sense, and are just copied off of some old AS FP notes that shouldn't really be relevant to the current discussion.
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Re: What the patch notes for EP 3.0 should've been

Post by yemshi »

The only purpose for the genitour -1 range was to allow all skirmishers to shoot the goons and not just the first line. You'd simply overdo it at times.
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Re: What the patch notes for EP 3.0 should've been

Post by forgrin »

Mitoe wrote:Honestly there just needs to be a public beta period between tournaments where changes are made every few weeks and everyone can help test them.

And tbh many of the changes you listed here don't really make any sense, and are just copied off of some old AS FP notes that shouldn't really be relevant to the current discussion.


Public beta pls pls pls. There is really no reason to not have a public beta, it's not like the patch is even used outside of this community so nobody's gonna get hung up over a couple bugs or whatever the coders are worried about. The pros of more public testing far outweigh any cons.
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Re: What the patch notes for EP 3.0 should've been

Post by drsingh »

Mitoe wrote:Honestly there just needs to be a public beta period between tournaments where changes are made every few weeks and everyone can help test them.


How will everyone test and report.. are we going to have polls again..
Public beta would be more disorganized and difficult to identify results from. While those interested in testing and helping should be allowed to apply for closed beta through a forum thread(more the better). Those who don't want to participate shouldn't be forced in it by creating open beta. To allow for wider acceptance of the patch, changes should be less frequent and not include experimental stuff.

Lot of other tournaments and invitationals happened between the two major esoc tournies. which patch are they supposed to use if it will change every few weeks?
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Re: What the patch notes for EP 3.0 should've been

Post by forgrin »

drsingh wrote:
Mitoe wrote:Honestly there just needs to be a public beta period between tournaments where changes are made every few weeks and everyone can help test them.


How will everyone test and report.. are we going to have polls again..
Public beta would be more disorganized and difficult to identify results from. While those interested in testing and helping should be allowed to apply for closed beta through a forum thread(more the better). Those who don't want to participate shouldn't be forced in it by creating open beta. To allow for wider acceptance of the patch, changes should be less frequent and not include experimental stuff.

Lot of other tournaments and invitationals happened between the two major esoc tournies. which patch are they supposed to use if it will change every few weeks?

LoL does perfectly fine and they have a relatively big patch every couple weeks.
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Re: What the patch notes for EP 3.0 should've been

Post by drsingh »

I havnt played LOL. So I don't know if it has the same strategic depth like aoe3. Which probably matters if it changes all scales and matchups and build orders frequently.. Also do those patch bring new content.. to keep the game exciting or they are in a constant loop of never ending balance patches..
This was a question.. but if it turns out it does work well for LOL. Then I don't have anything further to say.
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Re: What the patch notes for EP 3.0 should've been

Post by forgrin »

drsingh wrote:I havnt played LOL. So I don't know if it has the same strategic depth like aoe3. Which probably matters if it changes all scales and matchups and build orders frequently.. Also do those patch bring new content.. to keep the game exciting or they are in a constant loop of never ending balance patches..
This was a question.. but if it turns out it does work well for LOL. Then I don't have anything further to say.

Well they also have a PBE (which is basically a closed beta testing ground) so that's doable as well for us, just might be harder to manage for the coders on our end (more work to manage 2x platforms).

Overall, I don't think it's a major concern as long as legacy downloads of stable patch versions are made available (or a downgrade function added to the launcher etc). Open beta should be fine as the # of small tourneys is pretty small to be honest.
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Re: What the patch notes for EP 3.0 should've been

Post by Mitoe »

drsingh wrote:
Mitoe wrote:Honestly there just needs to be a public beta period between tournaments where changes are made every few weeks and everyone can help test them.


How will everyone test and report.. are we going to have polls again..
Public beta would be more disorganized and difficult to identify results from. While those interested in testing and helping should be allowed to apply for closed beta through a forum thread(more the better). Those who don't want to participate shouldn't be forced in it by creating open beta. To allow for wider acceptance of the patch, changes should be less frequent and not include experimental stuff.

Lot of other tournaments and invitationals happened between the two major esoc tournies. which patch are they supposed to use if it will change every few weeks?

You don't necessarily have to test and report or even poll. The idea is more that you can get a better idea of how effective a change is when there are 100s of games played from which to generate discussion than a mere handful from the beta testers.

Plus it helps keep the game interesting in the "off-season" where many top players just stop playing between tournaments. Yes, there are a few invitationals and stuff inbetween, but these smaller events don't tend to emphasize the same level of preparation that something like one of the major tournaments does. If anything, these minor events would better test these changes for the major events.
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Re: What the patch notes for EP 3.0 should've been

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Post by P i k i l i c »

Tbh there are changes of the new patch I dont understand but only a few of your ideas sound good to me :hmm: and anyway 100% of the changes will never satisfy 100% of the people
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Re: What the patch notes for EP 3.0 should've been

Post by drsingh »

Mitoe wrote:You don't necessarily have to test and report or even poll. The idea is more that you can get a better idea of how effective a change is when there are 100s of games played from which to generate discussion than a mere handful from the beta testers.

Plus it helps keep the game interesting in the "off-season" where many top players just stop playing between tournaments. Yes, there are a few invitationals and stuff inbetween, but these smaller events don't tend to emphasize the same level of preparation that something like one of the major tournaments does. If anything, these minor events would better test these changes for the major events.


I have to agree that the excitement around the game and patch went down in this off season. I don't know the reason for top players, I'll take your word for it.

But I feel in closed beta they have option to test more radical changes (like fixed crates, or sioux restructuring). But in open beta, its like their hands are tied. And make smaller conservative changes, which make the balancing process lot longer..
Anyways if they aren't going to test radical changes(Hint- Fixed Crates), and have very limited people in beta.. then it would be more of a disadvantage..
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Re: What the patch notes for EP 3.0 should've been

Post by iCourt »

Fire pit bug for Aztec Explorer?

Any others having an impact on gameplay?
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Re: What the patch notes for EP 3.0 should've been

Post by ListlessSalmon »

Here goes my uninformed noob attempt:

General Changes:
Random crates removed- always spawn a wood start.
Saloon- building removed from the game.
Monestary- all the saloony effects removed.
Water- removed from the game entirely.
TP income reduced 10% per pass.

Aztec:
WC bug removed

Iroquis:
EP 3.0

German:
Reverted to RE

France:
Reverted to RE

India:
Reverted to ES1.01a

Japan:
Reverted to ES1.01a

Russia:
Reverted to RE

Ottoman:
EP 3.0

Sioux:
EP 3.0
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Re: What the patch notes for EP 3.0 should've been

Post by Mitoe »

@iCourt

The firepit "bug" for the Aztec explorer is not really a bug, but more of a balance concern. The Aztec heal dance targets idle units, and when the Aztec explorer dies he becomes idle and can be easily healed up using this dance to revive within seconds after dying.

The larger issue here isn't that you can easily revive the explorer (you're sacrificing damage by dancing for this anyway), it's more the cover mode bug that grants your explorer full stats + the cover mode buff against ranged damage when he revives.
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Re: What the patch notes for EP 3.0 should've been

Post by iCourt »

Ah that's documented. Asked if I could fix that and Ryan said no.

111. Chinese and Aztec explorers that died in cover mode revive with full speed. Switching stances causes the cover mode speed to reset back to normal. This could cause imbalances early game as it increases explorer HP tremendously. (Possible solution is to remove or standardize stats for cover mode. Both options are undesirable) (Exploitable)

I'm pretty sure you have multiple options to fix this. One is to remove cover mode. Two would be to standardize or reduce hp/RR stats to whatever number you'd like. Another option would be to adjust the dance to not work on the explorer since the war chief dance is supposed to be the intended revival method. All of the methods will effect gameplay, however the dance change seems like it would be the least impactful though the most complicated.
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Re: What the patch notes for EP 3.0 should've been

Post by pecelot »

^ yes please :love: :love:
Ryan is not in the patch team ;)
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Re: What the patch notes for EP 3.0 should've been

Post by saveyourskill »

Darwin_ wrote:I am not alone in feeling that the newest official patch notes released for EP 3.0 are not the best in terms of effect or method or balancing. :cry: Here is what I have talked with people about what EP 3.0 should be:

General Changes:
• Native warriors from treasures have .25 multiplier vs. villagers
Not sure if they can do that to the ones from treasures without effecting the ones you make, however I think they can have all nats in age 1 have a .5 or .25 vs. vills and when that player ages it goes back to 1.0 vs. vills
• Cavalry archer speed increased to 7.00 (from 6.75)
CA beat goons and are cheaper but slower so I don't think this is needed. true they don't kill cav as fast as goons but I think CA are a decent unit.
• Rattan shield given coyoteman tag
this hasn't been fixed yet? lol wtf
• Advanced Trading posts card effect changed to +50% hp, -50% cost
I think if ATP would be nerfed it should be like +20% hp - +40% hp instead of +50%. I think 30% would be fine

Aztec
• War Chief fire pit bug removed

Chinese
• TEAM 5 manchu cost increased to 1000 coin
Doesn't this cost 1k coin right now thou?
• Old Han reforms cost increase reduced to 20%
not sure about this change but I think old han reforms is fine right now.
• +1 food crate
pretty sure china is a pretty good civ on tp maps and even on non tp maps they are fine for 1v1. for team I think they are fine as well and I don't think they need another 100f at the start.
you can marco just fine and get 2 houses up without idle time when northern refugees arrives

Dutch
• Bank limit set to 4
this could be a fine change if their vill limit was raised to like 60-65v.
• TEAM infantry hitpoints team effect removed
this card is very strong in team yes. maybe we could make it 10% and team still
• Coffee trade upgrade no longer reduces unit speed, now costs 300 food
I see this as a "trade" so your trading something for something else that isn't food wood or gold, just like the other trades from advanced church card
• Ruyter cost changed to 45 food-65 coin, from 30-75
wouldn't mine this but its fine how it is now
• Tulip Speculation effect increased to 25%, from 15%
this card should be better than 15% so 25% should be fine, should help their eco late game a bit

French
• Cuirassier now scales off of colonial stats. New stats: 25 hand/siege attack, 417 HP
cuir late game is very strong so this would be a good change imo
• Thoroughbreds shipment effect changed to -10% cost and -10% train time (from 15 and 15) and now costs 1000 food.
im not sure about the 15% to 10% but to make it cost 1000f is just silly. your saving 30f 30c per cuir you make and you have to pay 1000f to save 30f 30c per cuir and to train just 10% faster
• Courer Des Bois range resist reduced to 30%
i think this is needed tbh. but maybe have their hp increased to like 200 or 190 so they wont die to the same number of hits as other 100f vills,
BUT cdb have 4.5 speed so maybe the hp buff isn't needed plus it would just make them more tanker so maybe have it at 20% RR. just an idea
• +1 food crate
the patch made them cost 5 more food as well which i think is fine for the 100 more food at the start. your paying 25f more than other vills for 25% more gather rate on them and they are faster which is very helpful
pretty sure they train slightly faster for their cost that is

German
• Uhlan Range Resistance increased to 40%, from 30%
what i would to see is uhlan attack changed to like 33-35 dmg and have their hp at like around 205hp - 220hp i think maybe 210hp would be fine just would need to be tested first
however uhlan is the highest attack hand cav you can make (not counting mercs outlaws and nats etc) so if you change it to like 34 or 33 the axe rider would have a higher attack than it
so if you want to keep uhlan unique you would have to lower the attack of the axe rider and buff its hp.
• War Wagon train time reduced to 48 seconds, from 60.
should be the same train time as the cuir imo. just think of 5 musks train in 25 secs right? 375f 125c in 25secs, now WW 750f 750c out in 48.
500res = 25secs. 1500res = 48. having a 1500res pop out all at once is pretty good tbh.
i think 48 secs is just way too fast to train that maybe something like 56secs is fine but it should make cuirs train at 56secs per batch as well.
maybe WW need a buff but making it train faster really isn't buffing the unit itself so

Iroquois
• Steel traps added
they get better upgrades than steel traps but cost more in their farms
i think they could make farms and etc cheaper maybe and those farm upgrades
farms are unique to twc civs, it costs the same as a mill but can train livestock and be used as a livestock pen, plus your vills don't get stuck or push each other around on them
so we could do 300w per mill and 350w per farm and 350w or 400w per rice paddy and make plantations cost 500w. 800w lol what costs more than a tc wtf
and just make the farm upgrades slightly cheaper
• +1 food crate
don't know if they need this
• "Wise Woman" politician now also gives 1 villager when advancing to colonial, up from just 200f, 100w, 100c.
pretty sure they have another one that gives them just vills so it would just make that one suck more and have the other ones less good to the wise woman
don't like this change but maybe they need a buff so the 100f crate at the start could be what the civ needs
however if iro finds a wood treasure on a wood start they can get a tp and be re iro but stronger which i dont think anyone wants so idk what to do to this civ (i could try but not right now)

India
• Sowar HP increased to 235, from 225
not sure about this change but maybe they do need some more meat tbh
• Camel Attack decreased to +20% attack
seems fine but would just make you want to age up and make elephants even more. perhaps 25%
• Dravidian Martial Arts increased to +20% hand attack
this is to ALL units 20% even sowars and etc. don't like this change, the card is good as it is
• TEAM 5 urumi cost increased to 1000f
i like this change or team 4 urumi for 800f-1000f
this card is very good on re. your spending a shipment and 600f for 5-10-15-20 urumis... yeah that's cheap and you get so many lol. this card is even used in 1v1 games

Japan
• Golden Pavilion bonus now effects base stats, not upgraded stats
didn't know that but this is good change then
• Yumi attack card reduced to +15% effect
this change is fine i think but ashi get a 15% as well in age 2 but they are an overall unit where as yumi is not but yumi are very strong so.
this with making their attack -1 or so dmg is fine as well i think. good change
to add to this, the way of the bow could be changed from +15%hp to +10%hp is alright as well
for them to make the card just JUST an +11% more range to a unit in age 3 is sooooooooooo fucking bad like cmon now really?
i say that because they only have 18 range while skirms have 20. i dont think they need more than +2 range but just that is such a trash card so useless.
• +1 food crate
um. i think a fixed crate start like china would be better for balance. like the wood or food start and not the coin start would be fine imo

Ottoman
• Villager training techs cost halved
i got a build on my yt channel (thou the video isn't that great. the build i think is pretty decent) and it does a mosque boom very fast and you can make units right when you age
but i think the 100w tech is fine for its cost but the 250w should be changed to 200w and the 600w(cost of a tc lol) should be changed to 300w
as for the other techs maybe those can get a cost decrease (i think the 200c one is fine as it is thou)
• Mosque cost decreased to 100w, xp trickle increased to 1.0/sec
so let me say this. otto doesn't get xp from making vills but are free and can make them while aging
other civs pay 100f for a vill every 25 secs and get 10xp from this.
mosque on re has a .4 xp per sec, meaning you get 10xp per 25 seconds.
this change is like Aztec war pit start but you dont need the war priest
its true otto is weak on no tp maps but i think this is a bit too much, hows .8xp per sec while keeping the 150w cost? its fine how it is now but maybe they are weaker than the other civs so

Portuguese
• Cassador ranged attack increased to 18 (from 17), cost changed to 70f, 45c
i like the 70f 45c change making their food last longer but not sure about the 18 range attack but skirms have 18 range attack in age 3 so i think its fine tbh
• Genitours range increase reduced to +3 from +5, now also gives +10% attack
hmmm i think i like this change better than the +4 range for balance
plus it would make them better stat wise than brit goons
• Villager cost reverted back to 100f
• +1 food crate
what i would like to see is them getting an extra vill and have their vills cost 100f again or maybe 90f-95f is fine. and see how that goes(just to see how they do) just a test)
other than that it would make 10/10 stronger ofc
now to the changes you think are good, from what i see is that this is port on re just genitours and cass are changed....
maybe just have their vills cost 90f is enough tbh

Russia
• Strelet train time increased to 35 seconds, from 30
its true they cost 475res but i dont think this is needed at all but if it is perhaps 32sec is fine
• Boyars effect decreased to 10%, from 15%
it goes off of base stats so strelets get a bit more from this card but this change isn't needed imo
maybe it goes off of the stats strelets have that is below its base one

Sioux
• Cetan Bow cost changed to 100f, speed increased to 4.5
this sounds like a unit that iro has....
• Wakina Rifle speed increased to 4.5
they already get more speed from their chief and there is a card to increase it. i just think 4.5 is perhaps making them more unique but i dont like it when their bonus as a twc is having a chief to make their speed 4.6 alrdy
their range is 18 but they do 20 dmg while skirms do 18 (age 3 stats ofc) they have less hp like 20hp, that's worth while looking at but they cost 60f 40c. so imo this unit is fine as it is.
maybe trading off the dmg for 20 range is fine or just 1 dmg for 2 range is fine as well i dont know for sure thou
• +1 wood crate
dont think this is needed

Discuss! :flowers:


some of the patch notes

Sioux
- 4v -> 5v
should be a good change
- Teepee HP changed to 800
teepees get destroyed fast yes but you kinda have to protect them. i think 500hp is enough for now
- Teepee aura range increased by 50%
good change imo maybe even more tbh
- Teepees now have a gather rate bonus of 4% per teepee with a max of 20% per villager
i like this change. making your hunts more easy to defend but when your done they just sit they and wont be used again so
- Infantry can now build teepees
um idk about this. i guess it just depends how fast they can build them tbh
- Changed aggressive policy card to increase gather rate bonus to 6%
if with letting them build warhuts and corrals like the cards say i think this is good but would the max per vill be increased as well? to maybe like 24%

maybe the teepee change is too strong for late game. will need to be tested. maybe even making war dances a bit better as well if the teepees are close enough

Team changes
- Thoroughbreds train time effect removed
idk
- Mass cavalry church tech cost increased to 600c, effect increased to 40%
i think this is fine
- Genitours from +5 range to +4 range
liked your change better but maybe thats just me
- "Way of the bow" card HP effect removed
ill copy what i said before
the way of the bow could be changed from +15%hp to +10%hp is alright
for them to make the card just JUST an +11% more range to a unit in age 3 is sooooooooooo fucking bad like cmon now really?
i say that because they only have 18 range while skirms have 20. i dont think they need more than +2 range but just that is such a trash card so useless.

- Team 5 urumi -> 4 urumi
ill copy what i said before here
• TEAM 5 urumi cost increased to 1000f
i like this change or team 4 urumi for 800f-1000f
this card is very good on re. your spending a shipment and 600f for 5-10-15-20 urumis... yeah that's cheap and you get so many lol. this card is even used in 1v1 games
- Remove team schooners
why? this is like removing a card while Sioux has an one more card than all the other civs...
- "Bakufu" home-city shipment Daimyo & Shogun training-rate effect decreased from 100% to 50%.
good change i feel

to add to all that i said
you can train veteran war wagons in age 2 and vet cassadors in age 2 as well with the team cards that let them
i dont think they should be vet in age 2 plus their upgrades give them more just like with the cuir problem
so if we make cuir upgrade from the base stats we should do with these units and others alike
then maybe we have to buff cass/ww a bit


to add more maybe Germany could get 1 uhlan per age 2 shipment and 2 for an age 3 one and 3 for an age 4 one while making uhlan hp 190 and removing the 8% more xp to get a shipment just an idea
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Re: What the patch notes for EP 3.0 should've been

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Post by momuuu »

Theres some changes in there that seem odd to me, some that make sense. Some that feel like standardizing (camel attack, boyars) which doesn't seem fun to me.
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Re: What the patch notes for EP 3.0 should've been

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Post by Garja »

Topics like this are not a good balance approach. Everyone got his ideal balance situation based in personal experience and tastes. I for one disagree with 80% fo your proposed changes.
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Re: What the patch notes for EP 3.0 should've been

Post by Omkar_Satapathy »

I never like such balancing patches made by individuals like fan patch, ESOC patch, improvement mod, enhancement mod. They unbalance the game and actually take the fun out of game instead of making it better. Why don't you understand, the game must have been made by team of hundreds of people and they have already worked hard to make it balanced. Why do you guys need to make your individual balancing?
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Re: What the patch notes for EP 3.0 should've been

Post by deleted_user »

Omkar_Satapathy wrote:I never like such balancing patches made by individuals like fan patch, ESOC patch, improvement mod, enhancement mod. They unbalance the game and actually take the fun out of game instead of making it better. Why don't you understand, the game must have been made by team of hundreds of people and they have already worked hard to make it balanced. Why do you guys need to make your individual balancing?

Is this a joke
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Re: What the patch notes for EP 3.0 should've been

Post by Omkar_Satapathy »

deleted_user wrote:Is this a joke

Why should it be?
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Re: What the patch notes for EP 3.0 should've been

Post by deleted_user »

Omkar_Satapathy wrote:
deleted_user wrote:Is this a joke

Why should it be?

Because it's really dumb
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Poland pecelot
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Re: What the patch notes for EP 3.0 should've been

Post by pecelot »

saveyourskill wrote:
Darwin_ wrote:I am not alone in feeling that the newest official patch notes released for EP 3.0 are not the best in terms of effect or method or balancing. :cry: Here is what I have talked with people about what EP 3.0 should be:

General Changes:
• Native warriors from treasures have .25 multiplier vs. villagers
[b]Not sure if they can do that to the ones from treasures without effecting the ones you make

I think they are different units than regular ones — at least tomahawks :!:
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Italy Garja
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Re: What the patch notes for EP 3.0 should've been

Post by Garja »

Omkar_Satapathy wrote:
deleted_user wrote:Is this a joke

Why should it be?

Because it is common knowledge within the AOE3 community that official patches were never ever close to balanced and in general balance support from devs has always been lacking.
For the rest you are right tho, it is not good to completey kill the game's originary spirit with imposed "artificial balance". However top players generally have (or should have) a grasp on the right trade off between the two necessities and that's why community based patches can be successful.
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