Changing water for EP 4

Choose the option that best reflects your opinion on the mentioned changes

The changes are (near) perfect
19
30%
The changes are the right idea, but I think the numbers should be tweaked (reply with how they should be tweaked)
5
8%
I am okay with these changes but I have a different idea on how to change water that I think is even better (reply with your idea)
2
3%
I agree with the fishing boat changes, but disagree with the war ship changes (reply with why)
7
11%
I disagree with the fishing boat changes, but agree with the war ship changes (reply with why)
4
6%
I disagree with the changes and I have a different idea on how to change water that I think is better (reply with your idea)
2
3%
I don't think we should change water at all
6
10%
I think we should try to balance water through maps alone
11
17%
I would uninstall the patch if these changes were implemented
7
11%
 
Total votes: 63

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United States of America noissance
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by noissance »

pecelot wrote:
umeu wrote:even without monitors and upgrades from dock, 2 culverins do not beat a frigate with offshore support.

I already expressed my thoughts about this particular home-city shipment, though still, it's only 1-range advantage. I'm inclined to say that the statement above is false.

umeu wrote:what we need is either:

a) a maximum of docks that can be made
b) a maximum of how many fishing boats can be made
c) regulate the above by designing the maps with that in mind.

And how would you set the limits? :roll:

umeu wrote:alternate solutions are:
remove schooners, make fishing boats 50w std. remove whales.
or
schooners reduces cost, but also slightly increases training time.
or
just remove whales all together, but drastically increase normal fish.

Talk about light changes for EP :ugly:
Though the second point may be perhaps worthwhile, somewhat like the Estates card for the British :idea:

Ashvin wrote:Yeah if you see that [Admiralty] card your enemy's deck and you don't have it then it's gg!

I wouldn't say so, rarely does it become a deciding factor, you'd need a water-heavy map for that in addition to late game in which it actually comes into play and players can afford fleets of such a size.

Garja wrote:In a realistic game you're not going to stay out of culv range all the time, there are towers, crackshot has colldown and you're not going to use it asap, etc.
Plus land guy should have more eco and can powerplay it at one point.
On EP 2 culvs totally beat a non uppped monitor who crackshots them, because they 2 shot it and monitor has setup time. And that's without even splitting the 2 culvs to avoid the splash damage of crackshot. And we are talking about age3 culvs vs an age4 warship.
Mortars outrange any ship and if the water guy has no vision he can't dodge the projectiles. In a real game he is not in fact going to do that most of times. Also if we want to be nitpicky the mortars guy can just desync the fire of 5 mortars and dodge dance doesnt work anymore.

I agree :smile:

noissance wrote:Is it possible to make warship healing cost resources? Sort of like building repair

Wouldn't it be a buff actually? To heal warships you have to set them idle for quite some time at home at your docks, whereas with the building-repair-like ability they'd be able to do that anywhere even faster.

Garja wrote:That's a problem you don't have on nilla (where towers also bomb fishing boats btw).

How come no one mentioned that yet? It's a pretty simple solution, really! :D

umeu wrote:artillery is like 1/3rd of the speed of boats. thats the big issue here. if you unpack your artillery while out of range, ships just dodge and go away on most shores. if you come in running and unpack in range, youre gonna get shrekked by special attack. its not like its unwinnable, but its fucking silly how much more res and effort it takes for the land player. water play should mostly revolve around warship fights, imo towers to fight warships, culverins to fight warships, its all a bit silly imo.

A nice idea from the old Improvement Mod — reduce the speed of warships: currently they outpace pretty much every land unit with their ability to turn around smoothly. Not good!


By this, i mean keep the current repair system, but make it cost resources while the docks passively heal boats... like a negative trickle?
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United States of America Papist
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by Papist »

noissance wrote:By this, i mean keep the current repair system, but make it cost resources while the docks passively heal boats... like a negative trickle?


I like this idea. It is reminiscent of ship repair from older AoE titles, and would prevent players from quickly repairing powerful and expensive units for free.
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Poland pecelot
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by pecelot »

Well, if you build field hospitals, your units will regenerate for free, too... :roll:
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by _H2O »

I am not sold on changing water if we want to maintain the game. I think we may want to shift the guiding principles a bit and consider it.

That being said, the discussion on water is always good. I think people get lost in the details of games they experience.

To me the issues are these:
1. Free healing and high ship cost leads to swingy outcomes (you have a few expensive ships and you either lose them or they heal to full for free). Start with making healing cost resources
2. Cards force people into no win situations regarding water. Rework the combat cards. Especially offshore and admiralty.

Vs land:
3. Ships range is too high causing water to create a giant no fly zone for land units. I am not as worried about vs land damage if the range is brought in line and monitors special shots don't do damage to cannons. This problem is made worse by off shore support which was a huge issue when it was introduced. It also is made worse by free healing. I think with less range and pay to heal then you could jockey with your land units better.

I wouldn't touch fishing so that civs like German and France wouldn't be jumping in and fishinG. I would fix the first 3 things here then see where we are.
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France bwinner
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by bwinner »

_H2O wrote:I am not sold on changing water if we want to maintain the game. I think we may want to shift the guiding principles a bit and consider it.

That being said, the discussion on water is always good. I think people get lost in the details of games they experience.

To me the issues are these:
1. Free healing and high ship cost leads to swingy outcomes (you have a few expensive ships and you either lose them or they heal to full for free). Start with making healing cost resources
2. Cards force people into no win situations regarding water. Rework the combat cards. Especially offshore and admiralty.

Vs land:
3. Ships range is too high causing water to create a giant no fly zone for land units. I am not as worried about vs land damage if the range is brought in line and monitors special shots don't do damage to cannons. This problem is made worse by off shore support which was a huge issue when it was introduced. It also is made worse by free healing. I think with less range and pay to heal then you could jockey with your land units better.

I wouldn't touch fishing so that civs like German and France wouldn't be jumping in and fishinG. I would fix the first 3 things here then see where we are.

So basicly you want to remove the most interresting skill in warship fight+nerf water that nobody takes out of indonesia, great !
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by WickedCossack »

A huge problem with this discussion is people are unconsciously/unintentionally projecting their RE water experiences onto the EP.

People talking like every map is Hispaniola with 3k hp walls?

Can someone link me some 1v1 EP games on Florida, Manchuria, Hudson, Baja, Malaysia, Jebel that help explain their position?
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by pecelot »

Or Cascade Range :!: :!: :!:
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by Dsy »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--4Wgyb2Dnk

1:28:16 One monitor kills 2 and half culvs with ability shoot
1:28:50 H2O says: culverins are now wasting resources
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by WickedCossack »

Dsy wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--4Wgyb2Dnk

1:28:16 One monitor kills 2 and half culvs with ability shoot
1:28:50 H2O says: culverins are now wasting resources


Monitors got nerfed since then. On the EP. That was a great game btw. Not to mention those are age 3 culvs.

Edit: Actually I don't recall exactly when the monitor change happened, and the wall change for that matter which is important.
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by _H2O »

bwinner1 wrote:
_H2O wrote:I am not sold on changing water if we want to maintain the game. I think we may want to shift the guiding principles a bit and consider it.

That being said, the discussion on water is always good. I think people get lost in the details of games they experience.

To me the issues are these:
1. Free healing and high ship cost leads to swingy outcomes (you have a few expensive ships and you either lose them or they heal to full for free). Start with making healing cost resources
2. Cards force people into no win situations regarding water. Rework the combat cards. Especially offshore and admiralty.

Vs land:
3. Ships range is too high causing water to create a giant no fly zone for land units. I am not as worried about vs land damage if the range is brought in line and monitors special shots don't do damage to cannons. This problem is made worse by off shore support which was a huge issue when it was introduced. It also is made worse by free healing. I think with less range and pay to heal then you could jockey with your land units better.

I wouldn't touch fishing so that civs like German and France wouldn't be jumping in and fishinG. I would fix the first 3 things here then see where we are.

So basicly you want to remove the most interresting skill in warship fight+nerf water that nobody takes out of indonesia, great !


I don't find losing because I don't have admiralty in my deck interesting. But that's just me!
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by musketeer925 »

_H2O wrote:1. Free healing and high ship cost leads to swingy outcomes (you have a few expensive ships and you either lose them or they heal to full for free). Start with making healing cost resources

FYI from a modding standpoint I don't think it would be easy to make healing cost resources, unless you made repairing ships work like buildings (which would mean making it not related to docks).
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New Zealand JakeyBoyTH
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by JakeyBoyTH »

Perhaps only have healing with Advanced Dock? I wonder how that might work out.
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by HUMMAN »

Dsy wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--4Wgyb2Dnk

1:28:16 One monitor kills 2 and half culvs with ability shoot
1:28:50 H2O says: culverins are now wasting resources


Wow really good game. :shock:
Like optimus prime said, you can make a dock tech (like 500 w 500 g) repairs ships.
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by t3rror1sta »

Just dont change much

for me, the thing is, in real life, the nation with maritime superiority has, in fact, tactical and military advantage.

In our game, isnt easy to take water control, and it takes time + a lot of resources.
If we remove this advantages, the game will be limited to the same builds. Water will be like land maps... and every metropole will become basically the same, with diferent flags.
But well balanced
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by deleted_user0 »

_H2O wrote:
bwinner1 wrote:
_H2O wrote:I am not sold on changing water if we want to maintain the game. I think we may want to shift the guiding principles a bit and consider it.

That being said, the discussion on water is always good. I think people get lost in the details of games they experience.

To me the issues are these:
1. Free healing and high ship cost leads to swingy outcomes (you have a few expensive ships and you either lose them or they heal to full for free). Start with making healing cost resources
2. Cards force people into no win situations regarding water. Rework the combat cards. Especially offshore and admiralty.

Vs land:
3. Ships range is too high causing water to create a giant no fly zone for land units. I am not as worried about vs land damage if the range is brought in line and monitors special shots don't do damage to cannons. This problem is made worse by off shore support which was a huge issue when it was introduced. It also is made worse by free healing. I think with less range and pay to heal then you could jockey with your land units better.

I wouldn't touch fishing so that civs like German and France wouldn't be jumping in and fishinG. I would fix the first 3 things here then see where we are.

So basicly you want to remove the most interresting skill in warship fight+nerf water that nobody takes out of indonesia, great !


I don't find losing because I don't have admiralty in my deck interesting. But that's just me!


well, its kinda an invalid argument tbh, because every civ except iro (for some reason) has admiralty. and so it's not like you couldn't have had it in deck, which is the case with offshore support. It kinda feels like saying "I don't find losing spain mirror because I don't have 2 falcs in my deck interesting." It's not like you couldn't have had it there..

i do agree with the healing part. i think the range of warships is fine probably, but you it would be better if they either had low base damage and high multipliers vs ships and buildings. or negative multipliers vs land units (the latter is probably more complicated).

i think the point should be that winning water should never be enough to win the game on a map that's not specifically intended to be an island map such as indonesia or hispaniola, where controlling the water means controlling the map and resources. However, it's currently still the case that in many mu's and maps, winning water (even though it's harder to do, it's still not that hard) means winning the game. i've already made this post so many times, but honestly, map design is by far the best way to balance almost any aspect of the game. you can completely render water play near impossible, just by map design. A great example is winter vs summer hudson. Water play on summer hudson is quite viable, on winter hudson, it almost isn't.
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by bwinner »

_H2O wrote:
bwinner1 wrote:
_H2O wrote:I am not sold on changing water if we want to maintain the game. I think we may want to shift the guiding principles a bit and consider it.

That being said, the discussion on water is always good. I think people get lost in the details of games they experience.

To me the issues are these:
1. Free healing and high ship cost leads to swingy outcomes (you have a few expensive ships and you either lose them or they heal to full for free). Start with making healing cost resources
2. Cards force people into no win situations regarding water. Rework the combat cards. Especially offshore and admiralty.

Vs land:
3. Ships range is too high causing water to create a giant no fly zone for land units. I am not as worried about vs land damage if the range is brought in line and monitors special shots don't do damage to cannons. This problem is made worse by off shore support which was a huge issue when it was introduced. It also is made worse by free healing. I think with less range and pay to heal then you could jockey with your land units better.

I wouldn't touch fishing so that civs like German and France wouldn't be jumping in and fishinG. I would fix the first 3 things here then see where we are.

So basicly you want to remove the most interresting skill in warship fight+nerf water that nobody takes out of indonesia, great !


I don't find losing because I don't have admiralty in my deck interesting. But that's just me!

As Umeu explained, irrelevant, and not even true, this card is only relevant in the long run game, but you can win the water war before 10min ez, so without admiral.
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by Dsy »

WickedCossack wrote:
Dsy wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--4Wgyb2Dnk

1:28:16 One monitor kills 2 and half culvs with ability shoot
1:28:50 H2O says: culverins are now wasting resources


Monitors got nerfed since then. On the EP. That was a great game btw. Not to mention those are age 3 culvs.

Edit: Actually I don't recall exactly when the monitor change happened, and the wall change for that matter which is important.


I know they got nerfed (also they are cheaper). But their damage is still the same. 2 dock upgrades and they have 300 damage 70 range and 10 area damage.
Means if you shoot 4 even upgraded culvs - they just die.
And thats exactly wasting 2000 resources. If this change happens its "only" 1600 gold/wood for free. Yeah and you still can forget to go even near to water on land.

I dont know why we even talk about it. Its kinda a fact that monitors annihilate culvs/mortars/falcs...
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by Rikikipu »

Also the fact that when you are the land player you have access to native tps, which means you can go for canoes (which are super strong) unlike the water guy, which balances admiralty
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by Garja »

To be fair with 1.5k walls you can probably just play standard (e.g. stagecoach into musk falcs) and win.
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

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Post by Rikikipu »

@Goodspeed I know you aren't involve in map making, but still i would like to hear you about it. If we agree about nerfing warships, then can we agree about having heavier water maps ?
My point is that, until now we have nerfed water on EP with the maps (few water maps and low water resources in it), but if warships are nerfed, then we can probably roll back and stick more or less as RE state, which means :
  • More water maps (50% of RE maps are water)
  • Not only small ponds in the water maps, but entire layout built with water (hispaniola, northwest territories, amazon, ceylon, honshu, etc.)
  • A bit more resources in the sea

What are you thoughts about this ?
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

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Post by Kynesie »

Garja wrote:To be fair with 1.5k walls you can probably just play standard (e.g. stagecoach into musk falcs) and win.

I agree .
However the most important thing you have said is "probably". Because water MU on EP are largely untested. Wall nerf and ep maps, with Tc farther from water, make a full wall water boom really less good. But this discussion is mainly based on RE water feeling. Some people here need to try a water boom on manchuria or florida versus a decent opponenent.... Or try to win a 1v1 saguenay game on RE , vs tit india , with a water boom start xD

I just hope the patch objective is to see more water games...
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by Goodspeed »

ovi12 wrote:I just want to know what happened to the "change as little as possible" principle that used to be this core principle. Now the game could be completely changed if france and germany start going on water for example
Nothing happened to it. The problem is that to fix water, big changes are necessary. This is/was true for Ottomans and Sioux as well. But we are and have been reluctant to change it without overwhelming community support. Hence this poll. And with only 12-15 out of 48 votes against changing water, it seems that the community does want to see it changed.

Indeed, civs like France and Germans would go from never using water to having strong water presence. Boom civs like Brits/Japan/Dutch are indirectly hurt by this because other civs would gain the means to boom as well. There are potentially major changes to the meta on water maps.
The goal of these changes is to make water more prevalent while making it more fun to play and play against. If we simply buff it, we would get more water games but they would remain what they are now: Shit. Separate economies and a lot of war ship laming.

Rikikipu wrote:I know you aren't involve in map making, but still i would like to hear you about it. If we agree about nerfing warships, then can we agree about having heavier water maps ?
My point is that, until now we have nerfed water on EP with the maps (few water maps and low water resources in it), but if warships are nerfed, then we can probably roll back and stick more or less as RE state, which means :
- More water maps (50% of RE maps are water)
- Not only small ponds in the water maps, but entire layout built with water (hispaniola, northwest territories, amazon, ceylon, honshu, etc.)
- A bit more resources in the sea

What are you thoughts about this ?
With the fishing boat buff I actually think we need to be very careful about having too many water maps. 70w fishing boats is an excellent deal, and there are very few civs that wouldn't make use of it. 50% would be too much in my view.
Another thing that would need to happen to water maps is there need to be less fish. Water needs to be a finite resource, and it needs to finish much earlier than it currently is. Otherwise we are forcing players to use it instead of giving them the option. Whales are okay, but preferably not more than 2.
And of course there can be the occasional Indonesia-like map where water is forced.

If we make these changes the layout of the maps and resources in the water will become much more impactful to civ balance, so we would need to work more closely together when designing new water maps.

Kynesie wrote:I just hope the patch objective is to see more water games...
It is, but perhaps a different kind of water game than you are used to.

____________________
I think docks with fishing boats garrisoned should be stronger against war ships as well.
And indeed, some cards will need to be changed.
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by KINGofOsmane »

why would u nerf water on ep?
water seems already weak tbh
And the only good water maps get vetoed most of the times
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by Goodspeed »

It's not an overall nerf to water. Boats would be almost the same price as vills, and a dock is only 200w.
If 70w is not cheap enough, it can be changed to 60. Either way, the intention is to create more incentive to go water for all civs. Not less.
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Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by Kynesie »

Goodspeed wrote: Whales are okay, but preferably not more than 2.

... you can also assume your desires and remove all whales, and remove all water too... And remove all fishing cards ups too..



Goodspeed wrote:70w fishing boats is an excellent deal, and there are very few civs that wouldn't make use of it.

It can be good with iro, or port. after... 200w+70w for 1 fishing boat, gathering at 0.65 ... It s not as good as the standard land strategies :hmm:

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