Changing water for EP 4

Choose the option that best reflects your opinion on the mentioned changes

The changes are (near) perfect
19
30%
The changes are the right idea, but I think the numbers should be tweaked (reply with how they should be tweaked)
5
8%
I am okay with these changes but I have a different idea on how to change water that I think is even better (reply with your idea)
2
3%
I agree with the fishing boat changes, but disagree with the war ship changes (reply with why)
7
11%
I disagree with the fishing boat changes, but agree with the war ship changes (reply with why)
4
6%
I disagree with the changes and I have a different idea on how to change water that I think is better (reply with your idea)
2
3%
I don't think we should change water at all
6
10%
I think we should try to balance water through maps alone
11
17%
I would uninstall the patch if these changes were implemented
7
11%
 
Total votes: 63

User avatar
Netherlands Goodspeed
Retired Contributor
Posts: 13002
Joined: Feb 27, 2015

Changing water for EP 4

  • Quote

Post by Goodspeed »

Hi,

There is, and always has been, discussion about how we could fix water in EP. Currently it has some issues:
1. War ships are too strong against land armies, even culverins who are supposed to counter them.
2. Fishing boats are very expensive without schooners, and very cheap with. This means a water player is often forced to commit to it.
3. Infinite whales allow for coin gathering on water which means a water player doesn't need a land eco. This separates the players' economies and removes the competition for resources, therefore lowering player interaction.

The rough idea is to nerf war ships and make fishing boats cheaper without schooners, allowing all civs to go for water as an addition to their land eco instead of a replacement while discouraging the complete separation of the players' economies.

Through this poll I want to get an idea of what the community thinks about this. Please try to vote on what you think is the best game design and makes games with water fun to play. I know it can be fun to watch players get salty because they get beat by 70 fishing boats and a couple of monitors, but that's the wrong reason to vote against fixing the issues that are clearly there.

Choose the option that best reflects your opinion on the following changes.
- Culverin cost decreased to 100w-300c (down from 100w-400c)

- Caravel range decreased to 18 (down from 20)
- Canoe range decreased to 18 (down from 20)
- Frigate range decreased to 25 (down from 30)
- Monitor range decreased to 30 (down from 36)
- Fishing boat cost decreased to 70w (down from 100w)
- Schooners effect changed to 40% (down from 60%). Fishing boats after schooners now cost 42w
User avatar
Kyrgyzstan AOEisLOVE_AOEisLIFE
Lancer
Posts: 548
Joined: Apr 23, 2016
ESO: dats my secret
Location: Ze King in Zeken's House of Zekers

Re: Changing water for EP 4

  • Quote

Post by AOEisLOVE_AOEisLIFE »

changes are cool.

what if you give warships a negative multiplier against artillery? not being able to interact at all with land units gives less strategic options..

EDIT: does it make such a difference if boats are 2 wood more now??
User avatar
European Union Asateo
Dragoon
Posts: 426
Joined: Jun 14, 2017
ESO: Asateo
Location: Belgium

Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by Asateo »

What bothers me personally the most about water is that once a player has control of it, you never get it back. You need to build a dock and build a ship. (cards aren't strong enough to create a windown to build a dock and build ships) Your opponent will not allow this and siege the dock. Thus even if you have the resources, you can't take back control. I don't really have an idea haw to fix this though.

Atm in RE patch, it has often happend to me that I'm ahead, have control over land, and still lose because I can't beat him on water. Building close to sea, ships for defending, laming with monitor etc.
Why not make the special siege range of a monitor the same as mortar (range 40) but let it come more frequent?

I'm happy with the changes, although 1) culverin change will have effect on land play too. 2) Some civs, like India, get a smaller decrease then -60% (-30% and a dock). Will this stay the same?
To see a world in a grain of saind, A heaven in a wild flower
Hold infinity in the palm of you hand, And eternity in an hour
- William Blake, Auguries of Innocence
User avatar
Sweden deadrising78
Skirmisher
Posts: 171
Joined: Sep 7, 2016
ESO: deadrising78

Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by deadrising78 »

I agree with the fishing boat changes, but disagree with the war ship changes: Range decrease is a step in right direction but better imo would be to make ships do ranged damage instead of siege dmg, and eventually decrease splash effect, it would make ships less effective vs artillery
User avatar
Germany aligator92
Howdah
Posts: 1519
Joined: Feb 27, 2015
ESO: aligator92

Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by aligator92 »

This I like a lot :)
But I would rather give ships a negative multiplier against artillery instead of reducing culverine cost
User avatar
Poland pecelot
Retired Contributor
Donator 03
Posts: 10459
Joined: Mar 25, 2015
ESO: Pezet

Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by pecelot »

1. Culverins need two shots to take down an unupgraded caravel, a frigate is more of a deal, but still its broadside attack doesn't completely annihilate them. Moreover, monitors are already nerfed significantly in terms of their ground bombarding.
2. Indeed, Schooners sent early are quite expensive in numerous build orders, but at the same time it's not impossible — Portuguese, Spanish and Russians have no issue whatsoever, British can do that with an early TP (or even 3v -> 700w -> schooners), Ottomans have quite a lot of XP at the beginning — doable!
3. What? How can you sustain your entire economy with 16 fishing boats on coin? It's a nice addition, true, but it's nothing spectacular, especially later on — once you build docks, you commit, which means that your land presence is smaller and you have less access to natural resources, which in turn makes your economy worse — if the small number of fishing boats can make up for it, then it's somewhat fine, but unfortunately that's not always the case.

I disagree with the range nerfs, it would make warships utter trash and I'm afraid even less people would go on water (if you can subtract from 0...). The FS cost change is quite interesting, however, and I'd be willing to test it out! Culverins' expense decrease I find rather unnecessary.
Furthermore, bear in mind that once you nerf the range of the ships, you weaken them a lot in fighting docks, as the player who is already present on water can just garrison his boats and be alright, virtually untouchable. That's a valid concern, too — I've seen people speaking their minds about how you're not able to get the water back from one player, just like someone said above.
User avatar
Russia yurashic
Howdah
Posts: 1303
Joined: Feb 28, 2015
ESO: Yurashic
Location: Russia

Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by yurashic »

These changes are very good.

I think another idea is to nerf "Offshore support" and "European cannons" (the Asian version) so that it only increases the damage and not the range. Why? Because civilizations with that card have a ridiculous advantage in water fights over civilizations without that card. For example, if you have an outpost on the coast (40 range) and your frigate is standing right under it, an enemy frigate with offshore support (35 range) is able to shoot your frigate without taking damage from the outpost.
User avatar
Netherlands Goodspeed
Retired Contributor
Posts: 13002
Joined: Feb 27, 2015

Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by Goodspeed »

The culv change indeed affects land too, this is intended. It's silly for culverins to be the same cost as falcs because they only counter very specific units. @deadrising78 I like your idea to make ships do ranged damage instead of siege damage.
No Flag kami_ryu
Retired Contributor
Posts: 2196
Joined: Jan 2, 2017

Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by kami_ryu »

Wait wouldn't buffing culverins also affect land play?

I gtg otherwise would argue / read more
User avatar
Turkey Mameluke
Dragoon
Posts: 471
Joined: Dec 29, 2016
ESO: Mameluké
Location: Gym

Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by Mameluke »

ONe of most annoying thing is this op monitor speciall attack range (dont know if its the same on EP like on RE)
If you see any mistakes in my grammar/vocabulary or whatever, please correct me. I really appreciate it :!: :flowers:
User avatar
Poland pecelot
Retired Contributor
Donator 03
Posts: 10459
Joined: Mar 25, 2015
ESO: Pezet

Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by pecelot »

Familiarising yourself with currently-binding EP changes would be appreciated before taking part in the discussion... :dry: \
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BU_ ... tf0micgbiw
Monitors cost decreased to 600 wood and 200 coin (down from 800 wood and 200 coin); Long-range Attack ability range decreased to 70 (down from 100) and increased cooldown time to 1 minute 30 seconds (up from 1 minute).
User avatar
United States of America noissance
Jaeger
Donator 01
Posts: 2031
Joined: Mar 28, 2015
ESO: noissance
Location: United States

Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by noissance »

just give culverin bigger multiplier vs ships
Error 404: Signature not found
User avatar
Sweden Gendarme
Gendarme
Donator 03
Posts: 5132
Joined: Sep 11, 2016
ESO: Gendarme

Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by Gendarme »

AOEisLOVE_AOEisLIFE wrote:EDIT: does it make such a difference if boats are 2 wood more now??

They cost 2 more wood than before (it's negligible so it is more or less the same) if you send schooners, but schooners is a lot less important because it only gives you a 30 (or 28) wood discount, compared to the previous 60 wood discount, which is a hard nerf to schooners, while promoting more non-schooners water play in general - which is a great thing because we have such lovely water maps that are played as if they were Great Plains.
Pay more attention to detail.
User avatar
Brazil lemmings121
Jaeger
Posts: 2673
Joined: Mar 15, 2015
ESO: lemmings121

Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by lemmings121 »

Maybe just forget about the buff on the culv to avoid side efects in land game (which is fine), and focus in only nerfing ships.

Also, falco range is 26 right? maybe make the frigate 24, just to make sure in the early interaction from age3 cards the 2 falcos have a clear advantage vs the frig.

Another idea that I would sugest is giving a 0,5x from all ships vs all land units.
Image
User avatar
Poland pecelot
Retired Contributor
Donator 03
Posts: 10459
Joined: Mar 25, 2015
ESO: Pezet

Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by pecelot »

noissance wrote:just give culverin bigger multiplier vs ships

Haha, so how would you play on water on Hudson Bay on EP against culverins? :uglylol: :uglylol:
User avatar
Brazil lemmings121
Jaeger
Posts: 2673
Joined: Mar 15, 2015
ESO: lemmings121

Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by lemmings121 »

Gendarme wrote:
AOEisLOVE_AOEisLIFE wrote:EDIT: does it make such a difference if boats are 2 wood more now??

They cost 2 more wood than before (it's negligible so it is more or less the same) if you send schooners, but schooners is a lot less important because it only gives you a 30 (or 28) wood discount, compared to the previous 60 wood discount, which is a hard nerf to schooners, while promoting more non-schooners water play in general - which is a great thing because we have such lovely water maps that are played as if they were Great Plains.


I'm afraid that it just makes schoones and its asian version useless, but maybe its for the best...
Image
User avatar
Sweden Gendarme
Gendarme
Donator 03
Posts: 5132
Joined: Sep 11, 2016
ESO: Gendarme

Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by Gendarme »

Well, the numbers are not set in stone. Just a rough estimate by GoodSpeed to give an idea of how things will change. I'm sure there's a way to not render schooners useless while giving it a hard nerf at the same time.
Pay more attention to detail.
User avatar
Holy See Imperial Noob
Lancer
Posts: 958
Joined: Feb 29, 2016
Location: Well hello DEre

Re: Changing water for EP 4

  • Quote

Post by Imperial Noob »

Nerf canoe limit pls. They are fast, no-pop-rodent gatherers with ability to hide in nests. They only lack an emote spam hotkey.

Offshore support deserves the range buff removal or its reduction to 2.

Fishboat changes reasonable.
Culv buff/repricing welcome. Try to remember about subsequent light cannon/flaming arrow/hand mortar buffs.
Vanilla warship range nerfs unwelcome. Negative multiplier vs. artillery would be more elegant.
Ranged damage idea is a joke. Edit: I hope...
:ship: :ship: :ship: :ship: :ship: :ship: :ship: :ship: :ship: :ship: :ship: :ship: :ship: :ship: :ship: :ship: :ship: :ship:
User avatar
United States of America noissance
Jaeger
Donator 01
Posts: 2031
Joined: Mar 28, 2015
ESO: noissance
Location: United States

Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by noissance »

pecelot wrote:
noissance wrote:just give culverin bigger multiplier vs ships

Haha, so how would you play on water on Hudson Bay on EP against culverins? :uglylol: :uglylol:

That's like asking how would you counter gendarmes with falconets. Solution is simple: make hussar to kill culverin.
Error 404: Signature not found
User avatar
European Union Asateo
Dragoon
Posts: 426
Joined: Jun 14, 2017
ESO: Asateo
Location: Belgium

Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by Asateo »

lemmings121 wrote:I'm afraid that it just makes schoones and its asian version useless, but maybe its for the best...


He has a point though. 28w per ship saved *20 ships (already a serious fleet) =560 wood saved.You can better send infinite wood shipment. Numbers can indeed be changed @Gendarme , but why not increase the speed of fishing boats for example, or increase dock HP. Give it an extra edge to make scooners worthwhile.
To see a world in a grain of saind, A heaven in a wild flower
Hold infinity in the palm of you hand, And eternity in an hour
- William Blake, Auguries of Innocence
User avatar
Germany aligator92
Howdah
Posts: 1519
Joined: Feb 27, 2015
ESO: aligator92

Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by aligator92 »

could also make schooners give a dockwagon like the asian versions do to make up for the nerf and promote light water play with one or two docks
User avatar
Poland pecelot
Retired Contributor
Donator 03
Posts: 10459
Joined: Mar 25, 2015
ESO: Pezet

Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by pecelot »

Imperial Noob wrote:Nerf canoe limit pls. They are fast, no-pop-rodent gatherers with ability to hide in nests. They only lack an emote spam hotkey.

They're expensive terrible gatherers, though :!:
User avatar
France bwinner
Howdah
Donator 01
Posts: 1292
Joined: Mar 14, 2016
ESO: bwinner

Re: Changing water for EP 4

Post by bwinner »

Imo current issues of water
-Too much schooner dependant
-Culv slightly too weak

I agree with the boat change which I find great, same for culv change. I disagree with boat changes because see is already rarely viable, so it doesn't have to be nerf.
In the end I am very happy about these change.
Image
User avatar
Italy Garja
Retired Contributor
Donator 02
Posts: 9729
Joined: Feb 11, 2015
ESO: Garja

Re: Changing water for EP 4

  • Quote

Post by Garja »

I strongly disagree with the fishing boat change since some civs are meant to have more viable water boom than others (which in exchange have smoother land boom and other perks). The cost change kills the card dynamic which, like it or not, is how the game works.
Also it falls in the "big change" category which is contrast with ESOC patch goal.

Basically there is nothing wrong in fishing boom. The controversial thing is when camping on water becomes too abusive. That kinda kills the game. Fish boom per se is both not OP and practically counterable.
Image Image Image
Great Britain WickedCossack
Retired Contributor
Posts: 1904
Joined: Feb 11, 2015

Re: Changing water for EP 4

  • Quote

Post by WickedCossack »

Let me get this straight .... water isn't viable and the fix is ... nerf warships, nerf schooners (42 > 40) & buff culverins ?

I guess that one single water game from the last tournament was too much for some people.

I voted for the maps option.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests

Which top 10 players do you wish to see listed?

All-time

Active last two weeks

Active last month

Supremacy

Treaty

Official

ESOC Patch

Treaty Patch

1v1 Elo

2v2 Elo

3v3 Elo

Power Rating

Which streams do you wish to see listed?

Twitch

Age of Empires III

Age of Empires IV