Change the mercenaries

France Kaiserklein
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Change the mercenaries

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Post by Kaiserklein »

I think it's pretty obvious that mercs are not very well designed. There's a lot of stuff that should imo be changed, to fix at the same time the balance and the design. I'm gonna list some thoughts below:

- Give mercs some colonial stats. It's actually a change from the famous VP that makes sense. Mercs atm scale off fortress stats, meaning that their upgrades are 20% more impactful than they would be on regular units.
While it's true for all upgrades, it is mostly problematic because of the powerful "advanced mercenaries" card. One could suggest to nerf the card, because 20% hp and attack is really good. But since it's an upgrade affecting a special kind of unit (the same reasoning applies for nats), I think it makes sense that it is better than the standard 15%. Thus the idea of giving mercs some age 2 stats. The same could btw apply to shadow-teched units such as cuirs, but that's another topic.

- Let the players upgrade their mercenaries in industrial (could also do it for imperial age). Atm mercs are more powerful than regular units in mid-late fortress because of the upgrades scaling off the said fortress stats, but they sadly cannot get upgraded in later ages, which imo makes no sense, because all other units can. Plus, outlaws can actually be upgraded in the saloon in age 4 (which is completely useless), but mercs can't, which is weird.
The upgrade would need to be expensive enough, so that we don't start having some OP mercs FI things.

- Give spies more hp. They do a decent job at killing melee mercs, but they die way too fast to ranged mercs, without doing anything, while being pretty expensive. They do have the stealth mode feature, but that can be countered easily by an explorer. 200 hp could be a good start.

- Mercs stats could be re-balanced overall (for example Jaegers are op, but Landsknechts are trash). Would be a lot of work though.

- Let people train mamelukes in fortress. You can ship them in fortress, after all. But make them cost 500g instead of 400g, just like 5 mams were nerfed to 4.
Before someone says "fusiliers can be shipped in age 4 but trained in age 3, so there's no logic anyway": this is irrelevant because fusiliers are crap anyway, also Microsoft having no logic doesn't mean we also shouldn't. Plus, we can also make fusiliers trainable in age 4 if you want.

[spoiler=spoiler]Then there's some bugs (or not?) that could be fixed.

- Talking about fusiliers: they cost only 2 pop while costing 300g, which is weird.

- Ninjas atm cost 4 pop, while being worth only 200 resources (usually 2 pop). This is weird and could be changed, though it's not a big deal. It does make it really painful to train ninjas though.

- Arsonists were missing the "mercenary" tag on RE. Not sure if this was fixed on EP, but if should be.

- Iron troops from the saloon miss a 0.75 multiplier against cav, compared to the shipped iron troops. They also give 30 xp when produced, while costing only 200g. This makes me think they were supposed to cost 300g, which would make sense, since they are absolutely OP atm. They are easily the best merc and I would give them that 300g cost, or at least 250g, and the multiplier against cav.[/spoiler]

Feel free to comment below
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Turkey HUMMAN
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Re: Change the mercenaries

Post by HUMMAN »

Personally i like the game concept that mercanaries are most efficient at mid game and as time goes on(mines dryed and oppenent improved his units) merc guy should be disadvantaged. You propose merc units should be like regular units and be upgraded accordingly, which is balanced but changes mercs dramatically, which is not fun for me. But in age 5 a capitol upgrade may be nice(like natives) Or what about a card for certain civs which reduces pop cost of mercs/some mercs? Or what about train time reducement cards or saloon limit increasing card? Or in a certain map a nat tp's improvement may be about mercs. I find these more exciting but since they are major changes wont be accepted by the patch team anyway, neither yours.
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Holy See Imperial Noob
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Re: Change the mercenaries

Post by Imperial Noob »

1. Age II stats with an age III auto upgrade would be a very elegant way of adressing the card issue.

Poor Four Landsknechts though... :sad: at least make them 5 for 500 gold. Germany even has it in it's numerous descriptions, that it can access mercenaries earlier than any other civ.
Do we suggest, that it is a marketing version of "Obi-wan truth"?

2. A 30% "Wild West" style Age IV upgrade would be great.
Imperial upgrade tech available in the capitol or saloon is also worth considering.
(Imperial Black Rider pls pls pls ^_^)
//Games lasting to age 5 are so rare though, that in case of EP the latter is unimportant.//

Currently, in a FFA for example, I make a 200 pop merc army, kill 3 players busy planting carrots and herding sheep, then find myself against a little square of guard @pecelot musketeers and screw logic, all my heroic mercs die before I can build the infrastracture and switch to normal units... :mad:

To your points:
Nerfing iron troops would be just racist. Let them be good. Multiplier is missing and xp too high, but the price is fair.
Ninja using 4 pop is very strange though. I understand, that nobody wants to share a room with an assassin, but come on, they are basically anti-merc swiss pikes.

Arsonists also cost 300 gold, 2 pop, probably from the wicked mind of the same designer.

HUMMAN wrote:but since they are major changes wont be accepted by the patch team anyway, neither yours.


It is a self-fulfilling prophecy to adress EP team as stubborn against absolutely all good ideas. Let's not provoke their... siege mentality? Ok?
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Turkey HUMMAN
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Re: Change the mercenaries

Post by HUMMAN »

Lol i dont claim anything about them except the policy shared that no major changes would be implemented.
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France P i k i l i c
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Re: Change the mercenaries

Post by P i k i l i c »

I usually like Kaiser's posts but here the idea I don't like is the one of upgrading mercs in age IV and V, it changes the game too much imo. I know that mercs are random but still, I don't want to see them even better after age III, or see them at all... I mean in age IV I don't wanna see Brit jaegers and German manchus even if it would be rare. Just deal with the cons of your civ.
This is entirely subjective though, maybe most people will disagree. About the "bugs" I agree with ImperialNoob.
Consider not the one who speaks the truth, but the truth that is said

:hmm: AoE logic :hmm:
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Germany QueenOfdestiny
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Re: Change the mercenaries

Post by QueenOfdestiny »

This is what he wrote when I was sitting next to him and drive :unsure: :ohmy:
shit juice :hmm:
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Sweden Gendarme
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Re: Change the mercenaries

Post by Gendarme »

If Kaiser talks about mercenaries I take it as gospel.
Pay more attention to detail.
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Malaysia Aizamk
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Re: Change the mercenaries

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Post by Aizamk »

I think mercs are fine as they are, just like nats: A niche unit that will pay off in certain situations. In nilla mercs weren't even trainable, so all this stuff about scaling to age IV and beyond didn't even apply. The design was just, strong unique unit you hire as a one-off. And I think that was good design. Saloon made things a bit unbalanced in TWC/TAD.

Maybe to balance things out we should let otto train spahi and let india train urumi, and it will be balanced because I have heard they are bad.

Agreed that some mercs are better than others, but this means that nob cannot go for merc every game, there is a chance that nob gets arsonists and methinks this is funny. + this way nob can still blame everything on "bad merc in saloon why I troll omg", in the case it's not jaeger or highlander.

Let people train Mams in fortress? Yea sure let's give nob chance to spam 1740 HP unit for 500g.

Spies do need HP buff, though. I want to be able to ship 5 spies so I can cover mode and use to tank in middle of fight.

Ninjas 4 pop may have been design oversight, but it may have been to compensate for how OP they are otherwise. I think they forgot to give ninjas the ability to temporarily split into two ninjas, I think this makes sense because 2+2=4. Also to standardize game they should get the monk ability to teleport to HC shipment point.

TY for reading
oranges.
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Brazil lemmings121
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Re: Change the mercenaries

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Post by lemmings121 »

I actually believe that if should be possible to know the mercs that are available in the saloon without building it (also, both players knowing from the start, dont matter the civ you are playing)

this way someone could actually make a build with the mercs in mind, instead of having to gamble.

(at the same time, wouldnt be a random surprise for the other side, if you knew from the start what units are avaiable in this game. wtf, this indian has 10 mamelukes?!?)
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Re: Change the mercenaries

Post by Hidddy_ »

If I'm not mistaken every non-merc unit in the game has colonial stats and the veteran, guard, and imp upgrades scale off of those. The only exceptions to these are units that are never trainable in the 2nd age such as cuirs, opris, and cannons. The reason for this is because of the team early skirms and early goons cards which allow for most fortress units to be accessible in colonial. Since the vet upgrade is 20% extra we can take the current hp of these units and treat it as 120% and adjust the colonial hp to 100%. For example cuir has 500 hp in fort so in colonial it would have 417 hp more or less. The same can be done for mercs with their fortress (120% of colonial stats) and indus stats (150% of colonial stats). Apart from that I would think it'd be balanced to only allow mercs to upgrade up to their designated age. But then you'd have to decide if a mame is 3rd age or 4th age merc and for some other ones too. I've actually thought about this quite a lot myself in the past.

PS: colonial stats for units are available on aoe wiki
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Re: Change the mercenaries

Post by NyxAchlys9 »

@thebritish Please consider this for Vanes Patch :flowers:
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Re: Change the mercenaries

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Post by Rikikipu »

lemmings121 wrote:I actually believe that if should be possible to know the mercs that are available in the saloon without building it (also, both players knowing from the start, dont matter the civ you are playing)

this way someone could actually make a build with the mercs in mind, instead of having to gamble.

(at the same time, wouldnt be a random surprise for the other side, if you knew from the start what units are avaiable in this game. wtf, this indian has 10 mamelukes?!?)

I kinda disagree with you here, because a core feature of the saloon is that you need to spend 200w to get the info of what mercenaries there are. However, having all mercenaries being decent and not too op (buff lanskenecht, ninja, arsonist, fusillier, and nerf jag, manchu or mam a bit) is more important, because you'll always know that the saloon can hurt you since all units will be legit, so can build it to have the info and eventually produce one.
To sum up, the gamble issue is not really about what exactly unit there is in the saloon, but more if there are trash or op units in the saloon.
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Re: Change the mercenaries

Post by Rikikipu »

About kaiser's post :
1) I agree giving them colonial stats, but also letting their stats scale to Age IV
2) I'm not sure about spies hitpoints. I'm not sure about buffing spy hitpoints. Another issue that spy got, is that they aren't been used for their concept, which means killing hero and scouting. Buffing their hitpoints doesn't change the fact that they aren't being used for scouting. However, if you simply reduce their cost, it will buff them overall, and then people might use it for scouting too, which is nice.
3) Agreed for allowing mam in age 3
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Re: Change the mercenaries

Post by lemmings121 »

Rikikipu wrote:
lemmings121 wrote:I actually believe that if should be possible to know the mercs that are available in the saloon without building it (also, both players knowing from the start, dont matter the civ you are playing)

this way someone could actually make a build with the mercs in mind, instead of having to gamble.

(at the same time, wouldnt be a random surprise for the other side, if you knew from the start what units are avaiable in this game. wtf, this indian has 10 mamelukes?!?)

I kinda disagree with you here, because a core feature of the saloon is that you need to spend 200w to get the info of what mercenaries there are. However, having all mercenaries being decent and not too op (buff lanskenecht, ninja, arsonist, fusillier, and nerf jag, manchu or mam a bit) is more important, because you'll always know that the saloon can hurt you since all units will be legit, so can build it to have the info and eventually produce one.
To sum up, the gamble issue is not really about what exactly unit there is in the saloon, but more if there are trash or op units in the saloon.


I see your point, but imo as long as you are gambling to know the unit type, I dont see saloon becoming a viable BO instead of a gimmick that sometimes pay off.
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Italy Garja
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Re: Change the mercenaries

Post by Garja »

Mercs are fine as they are. Even if they are meant to be a side option (just like natives) they are actually viable in the current meta.
Besides very few underwhelming mercs, most of them are fine. Landsknetch are not bad, fusiller are actually OP regardless of the cost, and ninja are fine for the cost considering they also hard counter other mercs. In the end all mercs are just good.
Honesly if there is something to be changed it is the merc combat card because 25% sometimes mean they're simply unkillable. You don't want the game to have a potentially winning move by just making a saloon and sending a card. Yet it happens in a fair share of situations.
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Re: Change the mercenaries

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Post by Rikikipu »

Garja wrote:Mercs are fine as they are. Even if they are meant to be a side option (just like natives) they are actually viable in the current meta.
Besides very few underwhelming mercs, most of them are fine. Landsknetch are not bad, fusiller are actually OP regardless of the cost, and ninja are fine for the cost considering they also hard counter other mercs. In the end all mercs are just good.
Honesly if there is something to be changed it is the merc combat card because 25% sometimes mean they're simply unkillable. You don't want the game to have a potentially winning move by just making a saloon and sending a card. Yet it happens in a fair share of situations.


Landsknetch are bad. 4 speed for a melee unit just sucks because if micro a bit decently it got hit and run by every single range unit. That's exactcly what fusiller are bad, they cost too much. Ninjas are obviously bad, because since the saloon got 2 mercenaries type, if one is ninja, maybe the other one can be a trash (see above ) or Age 4 mercenary (mams, elmeti, bombard...), which means that your ninjas counter nothing, which means they are useless. In this situations it's the same as having artillery foundry where you can only make culverins which counter-itself. Makes no sense to make culverins so.
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Re: Change the mercenaries

Post by pecelot »

Rikikipu wrote:Another issue that spy got, is that they aren't been used for their concept, which means killing hero and scouting.

They are used for killing heroes.
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Re: Change the mercenaries

Post by Rikikipu »

pecelot wrote:
Rikikipu wrote:Another issue that spy got, is that they aren't been used for their concept, which means killing hero and scouting.

They are used for killing heroes.

Correct, I see ton of games where people drop a church and start making spies to kill hero !
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Italy Garja
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Re: Change the mercenaries

Post by Garja »

Rikikipu wrote:
Garja wrote:Mercs are fine as they are. Even if they are meant to be a side option (just like natives) they are actually viable in the current meta.
Besides very few underwhelming mercs, most of them are fine. Landsknetch are not bad, fusiller are actually OP regardless of the cost, and ninja are fine for the cost considering they also hard counter other mercs. In the end all mercs are just good.
Honesly if there is something to be changed it is the merc combat card because 25% sometimes mean they're simply unkillable. You don't want the game to have a potentially winning move by just making a saloon and sending a card. Yet it happens in a fair share of situations.


Landsknetch are bad. 4 speed for a melee unit just sucks because if micro a bit decently it got hit and run by every single range unit. That's exactcly what fusiller are bad, they cost too much. Ninjas are obviously bad, because since the saloon got 2 mercenaries type, if one is ninja, maybe the other one can be a trash (see above ) or Age 4 mercenary (mams, elmeti, bombard...), which means that your ninjas counter nothing, which means they are useless. In this situations it's the same as having artillery foundry where you can only make culverins which counter-itself. Makes no sense to make culverins so.

Melee units are bad overall in this game not just the Landsknetch. And actually since this one has high stats it does beat most of ranged inf in a lot of situations.
Ninjas are not bad overall because they have nice stats, nice speed, stealth, AND they counter other mercs (and natives?). And mercs are also sent by cards.
There is simply no room to claim that mercs need a buff (well arsonists suck balls but to me that's more of an outlaw given the stats).
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Re: Change the mercenaries

Post by milku3459 »

Rikikipu wrote:
pecelot wrote:
Rikikipu wrote:Another issue that spy got, is that they aren't been used for their concept, which means killing hero and scouting.

They are used for killing heroes.

Correct, I see ton of games where people drop a church and start making spies to kill hero !


every aiz brit vs japan game
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Re: Change the mercenaries

Post by rsy »

milku3459 wrote:
Rikikipu wrote:
Show hidden quotes

Correct, I see ton of games where people drop a church and start making spies to kill hero !


every aiz brit vs japan game

or every aiz vs iro game!
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Re: Change the mercenaries

Post by Imperial Noob »

Or every Aztec FI game!

P.S. Please, consider either:
5 landsknecht for 500 gold = 1200 - 500 = 700 gold worth of +20% strength units (but without your usual 2 uhlans!)
or
4 landsknecht for 300 gold = 960 - 300 = 660 gold worth of +20% strength units (see above)

Currently it is 4 landsknecht for 400 gold = 960 - 400 = 560 gold worth of... :uglylol:
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Re: Change the mercenaries

Post by Garja »

Mercs need a nerf ye
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Re: Change the mercenaries

Post by DaRkNiTe1698 »

Kaiserklein wrote:Feel free to comment below


Thanks
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Re: Change the mercenaries

Post by princeofkabul »

mams in age 3 wtf
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