Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?
Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?
I see, my bad, budy.
is it extra, though?? I thought it was just fixed (they get w instead of another crate). Would you suggest adding a food crate to all other civs when that 1/4 spawn does not occur, then??
is it extra, though?? I thought it was just fixed (they get w instead of another crate). Would you suggest adding a food crate to all other civs when that 1/4 spawn does not occur, then??
Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?
Which other crate? Other civs don't get anything (fixed) more than enough to produce 2 vills and make a house. China gets that plus 100w which should be random. If tha gets randomized, then we can talk about the random food crate.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?
why buff china lol, not neccessary
Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?
Good question. It's only a buff in 1/4 of map spawns, though.
Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?
The china change seems to me a step in right direction. Its more about balancing china matchups.
If ppl think china doesnt need a buff in a 1v1 scenario where enemy civ gets 100w + 100f. And china has its fixed 100w.
Then it means it is much stronger in a matchup where enemy has 100c only. And you cant nerf china only because of certain matchups.
To better predict balance related to china this is needed.
Most likely china should be fine depending on buffs other civs get. If it seems op then can be nerfed slightly by some means other than crates..
Im interested in changes to india being considered.
I would like to see. -
Increased TM wonder power time. (balance between wonders as well as soft buff to mele units)
CM mansabdar units pop cost - 1+ unit cost. Instead of double. Or/+ change resource cost to x1.5 instead of x2. (right now clearly inferior to TOV)
Intervention should give 6 gardners instead of 5. This was nerfed from 6 to 5 long back.
Dont want 600 wood changed to 700. Auto gurkha upgrade etc.
The changes above could have indirect effects. TM might become a viable ff option(like was intended b6 design). And CM can be viable prolonged colonial option. Essentially an age 2.5 (15% buff mabsabdar) vs age 3 fortress enemies.
If ppl think china doesnt need a buff in a 1v1 scenario where enemy civ gets 100w + 100f. And china has its fixed 100w.
Then it means it is much stronger in a matchup where enemy has 100c only. And you cant nerf china only because of certain matchups.
To better predict balance related to china this is needed.
Most likely china should be fine depending on buffs other civs get. If it seems op then can be nerfed slightly by some means other than crates..
Im interested in changes to india being considered.
I would like to see. -
Increased TM wonder power time. (balance between wonders as well as soft buff to mele units)
CM mansabdar units pop cost - 1+ unit cost. Instead of double. Or/+ change resource cost to x1.5 instead of x2. (right now clearly inferior to TOV)
Intervention should give 6 gardners instead of 5. This was nerfed from 6 to 5 long back.
Dont want 600 wood changed to 700. Auto gurkha upgrade etc.
The changes above could have indirect effects. TM might become a viable ff option(like was intended b6 design). And CM can be viable prolonged colonial option. Essentially an age 2.5 (15% buff mabsabdar) vs age 3 fortress enemies.
Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?
If you think china will be OP with the extra 100f then that means you think China is OP 2/3rds of the crate starts.
Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?
EAGLEMUT wrote:Jerom wrote:Which modder is to thank for figuring out the crate problem?
The change is not yet implemented so.. we'll see.
I thought at some point it was stated that it's hard to have civs have semi-fixed crates, like to somehow disable 200w start for germany so they cant get an age 1 TP, or that it might actually be impossible. But if this change is possible then semi-fixed crates should be possible right.
Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?
Jerom wrote:If you think china will be OP with the extra 100f then that means you think China is OP 2/3rds of the crate starts.
Exactly thisdrsingh wrote:The china change seems to me a step in right direction. Its more about balancing china matchups.
If ppl think china doesnt need a buff in a 1v1 scenario where enemy civ gets 100w + 100f. And china has its fixed 100w.
Then it means it is much stronger in a matchup where enemy has 100c only. And you cant nerf china only because of certain matchups.
To better predict balance related to china this is needed.
It's only a buff in scenarios where China gets screwed by the crate start, where the other civ gets +100f and they don't.
Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?
It is exactly the wrong direction. You're widening a gap that already exist.
Euro civ standard spawn: 2 vills, 1 house, aleatory w/g, aleatory f.
China standard spawn: 2 vills, 1 house, 100w.
China has already a better start than other civs in 3/4 of start conditions. Basically every spawn but +100w +100f. With +100w only China and other civs have same start.
With this new change China will be better than all civs in every single spawn but +100w +100f (in which they would be in same spot).
This is even without considering that China also gets the best treasure gathering explorer, a disciple and a goat.
Also removing food cost from old han is also not needed. Since when China needs to be buffed when it's like top5 civ?
Euro civ standard spawn: 2 vills, 1 house, aleatory w/g, aleatory f.
China standard spawn: 2 vills, 1 house, 100w.
China has already a better start than other civs in 3/4 of start conditions. Basically every spawn but +100w +100f. With +100w only China and other civs have same start.
With this new change China will be better than all civs in every single spawn but +100w +100f (in which they would be in same spot).
This is even without considering that China also gets the best treasure gathering explorer, a disciple and a goat.
Also removing food cost from old han is also not needed. Since when China needs to be buffed when it's like top5 civ?
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?
Garja wrote:It is exactly the wrong direction. You're widening a gap that already exist.
Euro civ standard spawn: 2 vills, 1 house, aleatory w/g, aleatory f.
China standard spawn: 2 vills, 1 house, 100w.
China has already a better start than other civs in 3/4 of start conditions. Basically every spawn but +100w +100f. With +100w only China and other civs have same start.
With this new change China will be better than all civs in every single spawn but +100w +100f (in which they would be in same spot).
This is even without considering that China also gets the best treasure gathering explorer, a disciple and a goat.
Also removing food cost from old han is also not needed. Since when China needs to be buffed when it's like top5 civ?
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?
Garja wrote:It is exactly the wrong direction. You're widening a gap that already exist.
China has already a better start than other civs in 3/4 of start conditions. Basically every spawn but +100w +100f. With +100w only China and other civs have same start.
With this new change China will be better than all civs in every single spawn but +100w +100f (in which they would be in same spot).
Also removing food cost from old han is also not needed. Since when China needs to be buffed when it's like top5 civ?
This is very subjective. I guess you say China has +100w start atm because they had 200f 200w as base crates a long time ago, before the crates got fixed, and they now have fixed 200f 300w. But who cares about how it was before and if they have +100w atm or not, what matters is: is China balanced atm with those crates or not? Do they deserve an extra crate or not?
For example look at russia, they literally start with 300f extra compared to most euro civs, but it doesn't matter, what matters is whether the civ is balanced or not.
But yeah anyway I agree that China is strong enough like that and doesn't need a buff (that's just my opinion though), however the fixed crates are dumb when all others aren't, so we do need to find a way to tweak it so that it's more fair
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?
I see it as a fix not a balance change. All it's doing is closing the gap in crate starts which can be very unfair currently. It's only a buff in scenarios where China gets crate-screwed.
Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?
Although i'm a chinese player, I'm not a big fan of old han buff. The 1000f required is something really intersting because you need to prepare your old han. This is one of the particularity of this card, usually you don't pay resources for a card which grant tech.
Right now, I think I've lost all my ep games when i sent old han because it is nerfed by -50%, and it is usually not sufficient enough to take an advantage on your opponent. Maybe something like -30% only would be good.
Right now, I think I've lost all my ep games when i sent old han because it is nerfed by -50%, and it is usually not sufficient enough to take an advantage on your opponent. Maybe something like -30% only would be good.
Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?
@Kaiserklein
I don't know what you mean. China always had 200f 300w as base crates, meaning they always get an extra +100w regardless.
"Do they deserve that extra crate?" Yes, as long as they don't also get the other benefits on top of that.
Basically it's either fixed best crate (100w) or random 100w/100c and random 100f. Not both.
Also, since there seems to be still lot of confusion on starting crates, those are the base ones on RE patch:
As you can see the rule is give enough for 2 vills and a house. The necessary adaptations in place are:
-Brits and Fre get some more cuz their vill/house cost more. Russia gets less than 2 batches and starts with 1 less vill. Otto get 200w instead of 200f because auto vills. Dutch get 4(!) coin crates to compensate for gold costing vills.
- TWC civs start with one less vill and one extra food crate. Aztec also get 100w for their civ bonus (firepit). Iro on RE get 200w because longhouse costs 125w.
- Asian civs needs further adaptations. India gets enough for 2 vills and a house but also 100f to compensate for wood costing vills. Japan get 4 food crates to compensate for berry gathering and also 200w because shrines cost 125w. China get enough for 2 vills, a house (village) and 100w to compensate for no additional random crates.
Conclusions:
- Brits and French are lucky because they get extra resources on top of their already great starting conditions (Brits basically start with 7v and French with 6.25).
- Dutch get +200g to compensate for coin costing vills which in the EP meta is enough to always make market regardless. Based on this 200g is arguably little too much as a compensation in fact.
- Russia base crates are arguable. They start with less vills and they don't even get enough for 2 full batches, despite their vills cost less than normal. Are they actually balanced with these conditions? Arguable again, sometimes they fall short of food and have TC idle time. Is that idle time balanced? Arguable again. I guess it's a matter of opionion in the end, but +100f wouldn't be wrong math wise.
- Iro just have an OP start on RE. They get 200w for basically free since the travois covers the longhouse cost. It's no surprise they're OP. EP adressed this issue with one of the possible solutions.
- Japan is like Brits, they get extra wood for a more expensive house that however also generates resources. On top of that they get 200f as compensation for berries which is arguable. Often they find good treasures or opponent loses time herding first hunt so berries are not even bad in comparison. I'd say it's the most impressive crate start.
- India, if compared to Dutch, is screwed. Their vills cost more than Dutch ones but they only get an extra food crate as compensation for that. They do also get 20w from the cheaper house but that's hardly relevant. Another food crate as compensation for wood costing vills would make sense math wise. Would that be actually balanced? Probably yes, since India is the slowest aging civ. Would that be balanced with a 10/10 strat? I think so, but maybe the first wood trickle should also take 1v pop space like other shipments, to prevent easy 10/10ing.
- China has a virtually better start than most civs, being granted a safe 100w in place of random crates. That is considering all the possible combinations of random crates. Period. Now, one could argue that is not true. Cool. Then make the extra 100w a random 100w/100g and add the random 100f. Basically make China start identical to other euro civs. That makes sense. No bs fixed 100w and also random 100f.
tl:dr
Stop saying China gets start crate-screwed. It's the other way around. Their starting crates are better than other civs most of times. With the new change it would be better or equal 100% of times.
I don't know what you mean. China always had 200f 300w as base crates, meaning they always get an extra +100w regardless.
"Do they deserve that extra crate?" Yes, as long as they don't also get the other benefits on top of that.
Basically it's either fixed best crate (100w) or random 100w/100c and random 100f. Not both.
Also, since there seems to be still lot of confusion on starting crates, those are the base ones on RE patch:
As you can see the rule is give enough for 2 vills and a house. The necessary adaptations in place are:
-Brits and Fre get some more cuz their vill/house cost more. Russia gets less than 2 batches and starts with 1 less vill. Otto get 200w instead of 200f because auto vills. Dutch get 4(!) coin crates to compensate for gold costing vills.
- TWC civs start with one less vill and one extra food crate. Aztec also get 100w for their civ bonus (firepit). Iro on RE get 200w because longhouse costs 125w.
- Asian civs needs further adaptations. India gets enough for 2 vills and a house but also 100f to compensate for wood costing vills. Japan get 4 food crates to compensate for berry gathering and also 200w because shrines cost 125w. China get enough for 2 vills, a house (village) and 100w to compensate for no additional random crates.
Conclusions:
- Brits and French are lucky because they get extra resources on top of their already great starting conditions (Brits basically start with 7v and French with 6.25).
- Dutch get +200g to compensate for coin costing vills which in the EP meta is enough to always make market regardless. Based on this 200g is arguably little too much as a compensation in fact.
- Russia base crates are arguable. They start with less vills and they don't even get enough for 2 full batches, despite their vills cost less than normal. Are they actually balanced with these conditions? Arguable again, sometimes they fall short of food and have TC idle time. Is that idle time balanced? Arguable again. I guess it's a matter of opionion in the end, but +100f wouldn't be wrong math wise.
- Iro just have an OP start on RE. They get 200w for basically free since the travois covers the longhouse cost. It's no surprise they're OP. EP adressed this issue with one of the possible solutions.
- Japan is like Brits, they get extra wood for a more expensive house that however also generates resources. On top of that they get 200f as compensation for berries which is arguable. Often they find good treasures or opponent loses time herding first hunt so berries are not even bad in comparison. I'd say it's the most impressive crate start.
- India, if compared to Dutch, is screwed. Their vills cost more than Dutch ones but they only get an extra food crate as compensation for that. They do also get 20w from the cheaper house but that's hardly relevant. Another food crate as compensation for wood costing vills would make sense math wise. Would that be actually balanced? Probably yes, since India is the slowest aging civ. Would that be balanced with a 10/10 strat? I think so, but maybe the first wood trickle should also take 1v pop space like other shipments, to prevent easy 10/10ing.
- China has a virtually better start than most civs, being granted a safe 100w in place of random crates. That is considering all the possible combinations of random crates. Period. Now, one could argue that is not true. Cool. Then make the extra 100w a random 100w/100g and add the random 100f. Basically make China start identical to other euro civs. That makes sense. No bs fixed 100w and also random 100f.
tl:dr
Stop saying China gets start crate-screwed. It's the other way around. Their starting crates are better than other civs most of times. With the new change it would be better or equal 100% of times.
Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?
Goodspeed wrote:Not until it's final. A couple of changes are almost certain to be in there by now though so I guess I can share those:Darwin_ wrote:Goodspeed wrote:There is a list of wanted changes, it's not final yet but there should be a new patch before the tournament starts.
Do you have the list of changes to share?
Chinese
- Now also get the random extra food crate. This is the additional random food crate that currently civs other than China get on top of the first random wood or coin crate.
- Old Han Reforms cost removed
Sounds good to me, though I would like to see a small nerf to fortress, maybe a reduction to meteor hammer attack.
Ottomans
- Mosque cost reverted to 100 wood (down from 150)
(We also want to nerf some of Otto's more all in styles but aren't sure how yet).
Sounds good too.
Sioux
- Teepee aura range (attack, HP and gather rate) increased to 24 (up from 18)
love this, though I think it would be good to see a cap to the attack and HP aura to about 35-50%.
Germans and India are likely to be changed as well.
My ideas: revert uhlan HP back to 190 but decrease their range resist to 25%, and for india reduce wonder build time by 10 seconds and maybe reduce house cost to 50 wood. Maybe also reduced disciplined upgrades cost to 100w/c. Would also like to see dutch bank limit brought back down to 4 and maybe manor house cost increased to like 140-145 wood or something like that.
somppukunkku wrote:This is not a fucking discogame.
Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?
l think it would be good to see a cap to the attack and HP aura to about 35-50%.
This is not something we are technically able to implement.
Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?
Since no one ever has been using Reforms.Garja wrote:It is exactly the wrong direction. You're widening a gap that already exist.
Euro civ standard spawn: 2 vills, 1 house, aleatory w/g, aleatory f.
China standard spawn: 2 vills, 1 house, 100w.
China has already a better start than other civs in 3/4 of start conditions. Basically every spawn but +100w +100f. With +100w only China and other civs have same start.
With this new change China will be better than all civs in every single spawn but +100w +100f (in which they would be in same spot).
This is even without considering that China also gets the best treasure gathering explorer, a disciple and a goat.
Also removing food cost from old han is also not needed. Since when China needs to be buffed when it's like top5 civ?
Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?
It's an age4 card how many times do you expect it to be used.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?
Goodspeed wrote:Not until it's final. A couple of changes are almost certain to be in there by now though so I guess I can share those:Darwin_ wrote:Goodspeed wrote:There is a list of wanted changes, it's not final yet but there should be a new patch before the tournament starts.
Do you have the list of changes to share?
Chinese
- Now also get the random extra food crate. This is the additional random food crate that currently civs other than China get on top of the first random wood or coin crate.
- Old Han Reforms cost removed
Ottomans
- Mosque cost reverted to 100 wood (down from 150)
(We also want to nerf some of Otto's more all in styles but aren't sure how yet).
Sioux
- Teepee aura range (attack, HP and gather rate) increased to 24 (up from 18)
Germans and India are likely to be changed as well.
all these changes are kinda meh. the food crate for china is ok i guess. the sioux teepee change is really not helping fix anything. and neither does the church change for otto.
Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?
I am talking in relative terms. If there has been one virtually unanimous agreement on EP, it would be that Old Han Reforms is now useless.Garja wrote:It's an age4 card how many times do you expect it to be used.
Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?
There is much more than this. Like I said, I don't want to share anything that might still change.umeu wrote:Goodspeed wrote:Not until it's final. A couple of changes are almost certain to be in there by now though so I guess I can share those:Show hidden quotes
Chinese
- Now also get the random extra food crate. This is the additional random food crate that currently civs other than China get on top of the first random wood or coin crate.
- Old Han Reforms cost removed
Ottomans
- Mosque cost reverted to 100 wood (down from 150)
(We also want to nerf some of Otto's more all in styles but aren't sure how yet).
Sioux
- Teepee aura range (attack, HP and gather rate) increased to 24 (up from 18)
Germans and India are likely to be changed as well.
all these changes are kinda meh. the food crate for china is ok i guess. the sioux teepee change is really not helping fix anything. and neither does the church change for otto.
That said the China crate thing might prove impossible to implement so that might actually change
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?
who is on the patch team now?
Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?
zoom wrote:I am talking in relative terms. If there has been one virtually unanimous agreement on EP, it would be that Old Han Reforms is now useless.Garja wrote:It's an age4 card how many times do you expect it to be used.
Well I wouldn't define it useless as there are way worse cards and Old han still allows for using food/wood in late game with cost effective units.
That said ye, now it's nothing special. But that's only a problem if you want the card to be decisive. If that's the case, just revert it to 75% and then let it raise balance issues again. The no cost change surely buffs it but doesn't make it any more impactful than it is now.
I don't mind that change that much btw. The real problem is the food crate. About that, the possible extra crate spawns and relative probabilities are:
100w 0.166 Same as China
100g 0.166 China has better start
100f 0.333 China has better start
100w 100f 0.166 Better than China start
100g 100f 0.166 Arguably same as China start or slightly better than China
Tell me why China should also have the extra random food crate.
Also tell me why these experiments while the obvious thing to test is nerfing the FF and buffing colonial play.
Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2yxrxeGoodspeed wrote:There is much more than this. Like I said, I don't want to share anything that might still change.umeu wrote:Show hidden quotes
all these changes are kinda meh. the food crate for china is ok i guess. the sioux teepee change is really not helping fix anything. and neither does the church change for otto.
That said the China crate thing might prove impossible to implement so that might actually change
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