Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by zoom »

Garja wrote:
zoom wrote:
Garja wrote:It's an age4 card how many times do you expect it to be used.
I am talking in relative terms. If there has been one virtually unanimous agreement on EP, it would be that Old Han Reforms is now useless.

Well I wouldn't define it useless as there are way worse cards and Old han still allows for using food/wood in late game with cost effective units.
That said ye, now it's nothing special. But that's only a problem if you want the card to be decisive. If that's the case, just revert it to 75% and then let it raise balance issues again. The no cost change surely buffs it but doesn't make it any more impactful than it is now.
I don't mind that change that much btw. The real problem is the food crate. About that, the possible extra crate spawns and relative probabilities are:
100w 0.166 Same as China
100g 0.166 China has better start
100f 0.333 China has better start
100w 100f 0.166 Better than China start
100g 100f 0.166 Arguably same as China start or slightly better than China
Tell me why China should also have the extra random food crate.

Also tell me why these experiments while the obvious thing to test is nerfing the FF and buffing colonial play.
I wouldn't define it that way either. I should be using "completely unviable," because that's what everybody means to say. The only opinion I have on it is that it would be great if people at least tried using it before declaring it unviable.

"The no cost change surely buffs it but doesn't make it any more impactful than it is now." ā€“ that's probably the idea; to make it more viable without making its potential greater.

"Also tell me why these experiments" ā€“ Probably because it's tweaking the game, rather than changing the way it plays, keeping a closer user-experience to the original game and avoiding insane risks.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by Garja »

Cool. What about the food crate? Based on yours and GS posts it seems like you completely missed the reality of things.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by zoom »

Garja wrote:Cool. What about the food crate? Based on yours and GS posts it seems like you completely missed the reality of things.
Based on yours, it seems like you completely understood the point, discarded it, then started arguing something else entirely.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by Garja »

Which point did I discard.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by HUMMAN »

How about mosque 150 w +5 pop?
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by tedere12 »

yes also +10 free abus when u hit age 2
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by zoom »

Garja wrote:Which point did I discard.
That it concerns discrimination against japs. The civilization would not be any stronger after the change, than it was before, except for the cases where it was wrongfully weaker before. It doesn't actually affect balance in any sense that we think of it ā€“ with this one exception. If Chinese is too stronk, I hope and am sure that it will be nerfed.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by zoom »

tedere12 wrote:yes also +10 free abus when u hit age 2
Why is it so hard for people to understand that this is not the complete change list, nor are any of these changes final as of yet?
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by Darwin_ »

@Goodspeed
What about something like this:
China: Old Han reforms changed to +30% attack and HP (unit cost increase removed), cost stays at 1k food.
Dutch: bank limit decreased to 4
Germany: uhlan HP restored to 190, range resist reduced to 25%
Iro: 8 villager card added in age 3, and the first food tech at the farm moved to the market
Sioux: Teepee range increased to 25, gather and attack aura to 5%, HP aura to 7.5%. Wakina speed increased to 4.5, axe rider multiplier vs. light cavalry removed, dog soldier range resistance reduced to 10%.
Spain: Shipments arrive 25% faster (30 seconds for normal shipments, 45 seconds for mercs)
India: Wonder build time reduced 10 seconds, disciplined upgrades' cost reduced to 100w/c, from 200w, 100c.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by Garja »

zoom wrote:
Garja wrote:Which point did I discard.
That it concerns discrimination against japs. The civilization would not be any stronger after the change, than it was before, except for the cases where it was wrongfully weaker before. It doesn't actually affect balance in any sense that we think of it ā€“ with this one exception. If Chinese is too stronk, I hope and am sure that it will be nerfed.

Well it is you discarding the point that your statements are simply false then.
It is not discrimination. The civ would be indeed stronger, aging faster and being less susceptible of early agression. The civ was not weaker before, let alone wrongfully. It does actually affect balance in the aforementioned way. China is already rather strong, being a decent civ regardless with its main strat that happily rides the current FF meta. It doesn't need any change to begin with, if not for the wrongfully extra fattening nerf that you randomly decided, or again for a nerf to the FF and a buff to colo play.
Before change:
100w 0.166 Same as China
100g 0.166 Worse than China
100f 0.333 Worse than China
100w 100f 0.166 Better than China
100g 100f 0.166 Arguably same as China start or slightly better than China

After change
100w 0.166 Same as China
100g 0.166 Worse than China
100f 0.333 Worse than China
100w 100f 0.166 Same as China
100g 100f 0.166 Worse than China

There isn't much to argue when facts clearly shows that the food crate is not justified.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by gamevideo113 »

I think that a possible way to tweak china's colonial play would be looking into china's unique consulate allies.

Germany grants an army discount that at its best gets to 7% with the standard army and 6% with old han army. Considering that france's consulate grants a 5% gather buff on every resource it is pretty clear that the german bonus is bad, since even the french one is not considered very good itself. Dopplesoldners probably help a bit with china's cav weakness but no one ever sends them since no one ever allies with germany. I also think it's pretty unfair that only the food trickle is available in the colonial age.
Suggestions:
-All the german trickles are available in the colonial age;
-German bonus changed to -50 resources/-10% from every army (-50 res would be a bigger buff for colonial armies since they cost less than fortress age armies, -10% would be equally impactful in both ages);
-Possibly reduce the trickle export cost from 250 to 225 or 200.

Russia on the other hand has a bonus that benefits china in the long term, but china doesn't have a good army comp for prolonged colonial wars. A good economy granted by the russia consulate could make up for that, so the bonus could be buffed to -15% or even more. It doesn't translate in a really huge villager advantage since most other civs can ship villagers from the homecity. 15% means training 7 villagers when other civs train 6, 20% means training 5 vills when other civs train 4 (sounds very powerful but it's still a really long term bonus: according to my calculations, 5 minutes with a 20% villager train time reduction translates into 450 extra potential villager seconds, 10 minutes translates into a 1350 vs advantage and so on). Cossacks are nice to have since steppe riders are not the best hand cav. Blockhouses instead are kind of useless considering that china already has villages to hide their villagers in.
Suggestions:
-Russian bonus becomes 20% villager train time reduction
-Blockhouse export cost reduced to 150 or 175.

Another thing that i suggested in the chinese ESOC Patch thread is to change "Standard Army Hitpoints" to "Standard Army Combat" to promote colonial play with china.

EDIT: About the russian possible buff to 20% faster villager training, it is necessary to keep in mind that you pay for the extra vills that you train. After 5 minutes you have a 450 villager seconds advantage, but you spent 300 food to create your 3 extra villagers compared to a standard civ. That leaves you with not even 150 more villager seconds than your opponent. It is really a long term investment.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by tedere12 »

zoom wrote:
tedere12 wrote:yes also +10 free abus when u hit age 2
Why is it so hard for people to understand that this is not the complete change list, nor that any of these changes are final as of yet?

ask them
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by Mitoe »

Garja wrote:It doesn't need any change to begin with, if not for the wrongfully extra fattening nerf that you randomly decided, or again for a nerf to the FF and a buff to colo play.

I don't understand what you're talking about here, please clarify.

The fattening nerf wasn't random, though? I assume you're referring to the change where livestock fattens more slowly on villages in Discovery and Colonial. IIRC the argument at the time was that China was simply far too strong on livestock maps while still being decent on non-livestock maps. Before the change, most of the livestock China acquired in age 1 would be almost fully fattened the moment you hit Fortress, which resulted in a massive power spike super early in Fortress. The change made it so that power spike either came ~1 minute later or was just slightly weaker than before: it forces China to make a decision in early Fortressā€”or even earlier if they want to eat that livestock in order to reach Fortressā€”and seems like a decent change to me.


As for the crate thing, I'm fine with leaving it as-is or implementing this change. I don't think it'll make a very big difference either way.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by Garja »

Hmm, perhaps it's not phrased well. I mean if there is anything wrong with China is that its fortress is too good and colo too bad or it is the fattening nerf.
The latter does nerf fortress just as much as it nerfs colonial. And in any case it wasn't a proper nerf since it's one of China side bonus. The major impact was to allow China to camp for longer in base. Every other benefit was legit (easier to address early pressure, fluent spam in early fortress, etc.).
I'd rather consider more problematic the fact that all their fortress shipments are significantly above par. 10 skirms, 11 changdao, 5 meteor hammers, british intervention just to name the most blatant cases.
China FF is too strong compared to others. The only civ on same level is probably Germans, which is also incredibly strong in fortress.
China just needs better cav in colo. Steppes aren't even bad stat-wise. Maybe just some more HP. Keshiks perhaps need to be less expensive (their stats are exactly the same of Zambs). Also German consulate buff as suggested above is a nice way to buff China colonial.

The crate thing not only has facepalm logic but is also impactful. 100f means like 15 secs faster aging everytime China gets it. It's totally undeserved considering that a civ like India needs it way more.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by Mitoe »

I don't really think China's Colonial needs to or should be buffed. It's a good thing that it's weak, IMO; helps balance out their strength in Fortress. That German consulate change would give them a really solid Semi-FF I think, or even Semi-FIā€”since they'd likely be making Old Hanā€”and I'm not sure there'd be much room to punish them at any stage of the game.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by yurashic »

Garja wrote:Hmm, perhaps it's not phrased well. I mean if there is anything wrong with China is that its fortress is too good and colo too bad or it is the fattening nerf.
The latter does nerf fortress just as much as it nerfs colonial. And in any case it wasn't a proper nerf since it's one of China side bonus. The major impact was to allow China to camp for longer in base. Every other benefit was legit (easier to address early pressure, fluent spam in early fortress, etc.).
I'd rather consider more problematic the fact that all their fortress shipments are significantly above par. 10 skirms, 11 changdao, 5 meteor hammers, british intervention just to name the most blatant cases.
China FF is too strong compared to others. The only civ on same level is probably Germans, which is also incredibly strong in fortress.
China just needs better cav in colo. Steppes aren't even bad stat-wise. Maybe just some more HP. Keshiks perhaps need to be less expensive (their stats are exactly the same of Zambs). Also German consulate buff as suggested above is a nice way to buff China colonial.

The crate thing not only has facepalm logic but is also impactful. 100f means like 15 secs faster aging everytime China gets it. It's totally undeserved considering that a civ like India needs it way more.


Umm... Do you seriously think that China is on the same level with Germany? Have you ever played China in your life?

China is a decent civ on RE because other civs have less natural resources while China doesn't depend on them. China doesn't have a goon unit except for the manchu shipment and no way to mass a lot of skirms, so you rely on your melee surround. It is a civ that always ages up at 5 minutes and sits in the base while having a low eco and no map control to get an army. Many civilizations on EP (Ports, Spain, Dutch, Sioux) were significantly buffed while China was only nerfed lol. It is one of the least played civilizations and that is for a reason. Let's look at the matchups:

Aztec - China is too slow to hold the rush. In certain circumstances China can do well with CM but usually Aztec win.
Iroquois - colonial pressure with some units and an age up, China is dead.
Sioux - mass a lot of cav and skirms and win. Winnable for China, but mostly a coin flip because as China you want cav against skirm/cav and pure inf against cav spam, so you have to guess what to make.
Ports - hold the push, then outeco. Free map control against China is great for Ports.
Spain - China favoured, Spanish units are too weak compared to Chinese.
France - musk huss or age and hit and run a lot, hard but winnable for China but France was nerfed a lot so it is understandable.
Germany - age 3 Germany is just so much stronger, not really winnable.
Britain - free map control and great outeco.
Dutch - free 5 banks and a big mass that hit-and-runs the hell out of China.
Russia - make strelets, sit under TC, win games.
Ottomans - China favoured, but a jan rush can hurt a lot if unexpected.
India - India favoured, India can age up with great eco in this MU and use it's powerful age 3 units.
Japan - winnable for China but quite hard, we all know how strong Japan is if it is untouched for 9 minutes.

Ok, so we have 2 favoured matchups (against weak civs) and 3-4 winnable matchups. Now compare it to Britain or Germany that lose 1-2 matchups. China definitely deserves a hard nerf lol...

Regarding the 100 f thing, you completely ignore the fact that China always has to chop 100 wood to either get 3 vills and not 2 or to get a tp while sending 2 vills. I mean, China is arguably the slowest civ to age up to colonial, only India or Japan can age up later than China but they usually choose to age up before 5 minutes. It is logical and reasonable to get 100 f more when your opponent gets it too.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by deleted_user »

China does decent in a lot of MUs. TBH they do pretty well vs Germany because of their OP cav and WWs suck.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by tedere12 »

yeah I feel like chinese cav and redcoats can go through the uhlan mass without a problem.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by Mitoe »

yurashic wrote:[spoiler]
Garja wrote:Hmm, perhaps it's not phrased well. I mean if there is anything wrong with China is that its fortress is too good and colo too bad or it is the fattening nerf.
The latter does nerf fortress just as much as it nerfs colonial. And in any case it wasn't a proper nerf since it's one of China side bonus. The major impact was to allow China to camp for longer in base. Every other benefit was legit (easier to address early pressure, fluent spam in early fortress, etc.).
I'd rather consider more problematic the fact that all their fortress shipments are significantly above par. 10 skirms, 11 changdao, 5 meteor hammers, british intervention just to name the most blatant cases.
China FF is too strong compared to others. The only civ on same level is probably Germans, which is also incredibly strong in fortress.
China just needs better cav in colo. Steppes aren't even bad stat-wise. Maybe just some more HP. Keshiks perhaps need to be less expensive (their stats are exactly the same of Zambs). Also German consulate buff as suggested above is a nice way to buff China colonial.

The crate thing not only has facepalm logic but is also impactful. 100f means like 15 secs faster aging everytime China gets it. It's totally undeserved considering that a civ like India needs it way more.
[/spoiler]

Umm... Do you seriously think that China is on the same level with Germany? Have you ever played China in your life?

China is a decent civ on RE because other civs have less natural resources while China doesn't depend on them. China doesn't have a goon unit except for the manchu shipment and no way to mass a lot of skirms, so you rely on your melee surround. It is a civ that always ages up at 5 minutes and sits in the base while having a low eco and no map control to get an army. Many civilizations on EP (Ports, Spain, Dutch, Sioux) were significantly buffed while China was only nerfed lol. It is one of the least played civilizations and that is for a reason. Let's look at the matchups:

Aztec - China is too slow to hold the rush. In certain circumstances China can do well with CM but usually Aztec win.
Iroquois - colonial pressure with some units and an age up, China is dead.
Sioux - mass a lot of cav and skirms and win. Winnable for China, but mostly a coin flip because as China you want cav against skirm/cav and pure inf against cav spam, so you have to guess what to make.
Ports - hold the push, then outeco. Free map control against China is great for Ports.
Spain - China favoured, Spanish units are too weak compared to Chinese.
France - musk huss or age and hit and run a lot, hard but winnable for China but France was nerfed a lot so it is understandable.
Germany - age 3 Germany is just so much stronger, not really winnable.
Britain - free map control and great outeco.
Dutch - free 5 banks and a big mass that hit-and-runs the hell out of China.
Russia - make strelets, sit under TC, win games.
Ottomans - China favoured, but a jan rush can hurt a lot if unexpected.
India - India favoured, India can age up with great eco in this MU and use it's powerful age 3 units.
Japan - winnable for China but quite hard, we all know how strong Japan is if it is untouched for 9 minutes.

Ok, so we have 2 favoured matchups (against weak civs) and 3-4 winnable matchups. Now compare it to Britain or Germany that lose 1-2 matchups. China definitely deserves a hard nerf lol...

Regarding the 100 f thing, you completely ignore the fact that China always has to chop 100 wood to either get 3 vills and not 2 or to get a tp while sending 2 vills. I mean, China is arguably the slowest civ to age up to colonial, only India or Japan can age up later than China but they usually choose to age up before 5 minutes. It is logical and reasonable to get 100 f more when your opponent gets it too.

I know China is your main civ, but I feel like you underestimate them a bit. I've played a lot of China recently too and feel like they do a lot better in some of the matchups you say they lose; India, Russia, Japan, to name a few.

China's not bad at all, but I'm not sure I could call them a top civ, either.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by fei123456 »

Goodspeed wrote:Chinese
- Now also get the random extra food crate. This is the additional random food crate that currently civs other than China get on top of the first random wood or coin crate

it may be too op. if china has 200f 400w start it's just insane (4:30 age 2 with 3v, 50 pop limit, and 7:00 age 3).
300f 200w 100random should be better.

and the territory army should train faster: 3 changdao 3 arquebusier = 540 resource, but it takes 33 sec to train a batch :mad:
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by zoom »

Mitoe wrote:
yurashic wrote:[spoiler]
Garja wrote:Hmm, perhaps it's not phrased well. I mean if there is anything wrong with China is that its fortress is too good and colo too bad or it is the fattening nerf.
The latter does nerf fortress just as much as it nerfs colonial. And in any case it wasn't a proper nerf since it's one of China side bonus. The major impact was to allow China to camp for longer in base. Every other benefit was legit (easier to address early pressure, fluent spam in early fortress, etc.).
I'd rather consider more problematic the fact that all their fortress shipments are significantly above par. 10 skirms, 11 changdao, 5 meteor hammers, british intervention just to name the most blatant cases.
China FF is too strong compared to others. The only civ on same level is probably Germans, which is also incredibly strong in fortress.
China just needs better cav in colo. Steppes aren't even bad stat-wise. Maybe just some more HP. Keshiks perhaps need to be less expensive (their stats are exactly the same of Zambs). Also German consulate buff as suggested above is a nice way to buff China colonial.

The crate thing not only has facepalm logic but is also impactful. 100f means like 15 secs faster aging everytime China gets it. It's totally undeserved considering that a civ like India needs it way more.
[/spoiler]

Umm... Do you seriously think that China is on the same level with Germany? Have you ever played China in your life?

China is a decent civ on RE because other civs have less natural resources while China doesn't depend on them. China doesn't have a goon unit except for the manchu shipment and no way to mass a lot of skirms, so you rely on your melee surround. It is a civ that always ages up at 5 minutes and sits in the base while having a low eco and no map control to get an army. Many civilizations on EP (Ports, Spain, Dutch, Sioux) were significantly buffed while China was only nerfed lol. It is one of the least played civilizations and that is for a reason. Let's look at the matchups:

Aztec - China is too slow to hold the rush. In certain circumstances China can do well with CM but usually Aztec win.
Iroquois - colonial pressure with some units and an age up, China is dead.
Sioux - mass a lot of cav and skirms and win. Winnable for China, but mostly a coin flip because as China you want cav against skirm/cav and pure inf against cav spam, so you have to guess what to make.
Ports - hold the push, then outeco. Free map control against China is great for Ports.
Spain - China favoured, Spanish units are too weak compared to Chinese.
France - musk huss or age and hit and run a lot, hard but winnable for China but France was nerfed a lot so it is understandable.
Germany - age 3 Germany is just so much stronger, not really winnable.
Britain - free map control and great outeco.
Dutch - free 5 banks and a big mass that hit-and-runs the hell out of China.
Russia - make strelets, sit under TC, win games.
Ottomans - China favoured, but a jan rush can hurt a lot if unexpected.
India - India favoured, India can age up with great eco in this MU and use it's powerful age 3 units.
Japan - winnable for China but quite hard, we all know how strong Japan is if it is untouched for 9 minutes.

Ok, so we have 2 favoured matchups (against weak civs) and 3-4 winnable matchups. Now compare it to Britain or Germany that lose 1-2 matchups. China definitely deserves a hard nerf lol...

Regarding the 100 f thing, you completely ignore the fact that China always has to chop 100 wood to either get 3 vills and not 2 or to get a tp while sending 2 vills. I mean, China is arguably the slowest civ to age up to colonial, only India or Japan can age up later than China but they usually choose to age up before 5 minutes. It is logical and reasonable to get 100 f more when your opponent gets it too.

I know China is your main civ, but I feel like you underestimate them a bit. I've played a lot of China recently too and feel like they do a lot better in some of the matchups you say they lose; India, Russia, Japan, to name a few.

China's not bad at all, but I'm not sure I could call them a top civ, either.
Can Chinese survive the Strelet all-in, somehow?
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by zoom »

fei123456 wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:Chinese
- Now also get the random extra food crate. This is the additional random food crate that currently civs other than China get on top of the first random wood or coin crate

it may be too op. if china has 200f 400w start it's just insane (4:30 age 2 with 3v, 50 pop limit, and 7:00 age 3).
300f 200w 100random should be better.

and the territory army should train faster: 3 changdao 3 arquebusier = 540 resource, but it takes 33 sec to train a batch :mad:
I don't remember the details, but I remember looking at that, and reaching the conclusion that the only army whose train-points (train time, effectively) might be changes is the Forbidden Army. I'll have another look later.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by gamevideo113 »

Mitoe wrote:I don't really think China's Colonial needs to or should be buffed. It's a good thing that it's weak, IMO; helps balance out their strength in Fortress. That German consulate change would give them a really solid Semi-FF I think, or even Semi-FIā€”since they'd likely be making Old Hanā€”and I'm not sure there'd be much room to punish them at any stage of the game.

The civ surely has some options despite the prevalence of FF as its main strategy. Chu ko nu+pike rushes can be effective in a consistent amount of scenarios from what i have seen. But i still think that it would be nice to see some more consulate variety. Maybe the german consulate buffs that i suggested are overkill, but you also need to keep in consideration other factors like german intervention=/=british intervention, which is a very relevant thing when performing a FF.
250 export is worth 375 resources, and for this price you can get 1.8 food vils or 2.5 wood vills or 2 gold vills (not great deals). Considering that age1 trickle cards are worth 300 resources though, you might argue that it is balanced to have the consulate trickles cost more since you can get them without needing a shipment. So maybe this suggestion can be just discarded, as a GFA build would still be something viable if all the trickles were made available in the colonial age, even if their export price is not reduced.
Lastly, the german bonus buff (-50 instead of -30) would result in a 11% discount on normal old han army (from 6%) and a 9% discount on reformed old han army, so it is definitely a relevant bonus for that army, but more expensive armies like forbidden army would only gain a 6% discount from the german consulate.
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stupid logic. noob players can say op?
toxic, Insult, Racism ?
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Italy Garja
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ESO: Garja

Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by Garja »

Mitoe wrote:I don't really think China's Colonial needs to or should be buffed. It's a good thing that it's weak, IMO; helps balance out their strength in Fortress. That German consulate change would give them a really solid Semi-FF I think, or even Semi-FIā€”since they'd likely be making Old Hanā€”and I'm not sure there'd be much room to punish them at any stage of the game.

Ok fine, but then just dont buff China at all?

@yurashic
China does fine vs germans, I played that MU and China units are in fact superior in the long run. Germans need to add some mercs to stand a chance.
China does fine vs all civs but Russia and Otto. Aztecs are not even a problem.
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