Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by zoom »

Garja wrote:
Mitoe wrote:I don't really think China's Colonial needs to or should be buffed. It's a good thing that it's weak, IMO; helps balance out their strength in Fortress. That German consulate change would give them a really solid Semi-FF I think, or even Semi-FIā€”since they'd likely be making Old Hanā€”and I'm not sure there'd be much room to punish them at any stage of the game.

Ok fine, but then just dont buff China at all?
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by Mitoe »

fei123456 wrote:it may be too op. if china has 200f 400w start it's just insane (4:30 age 2 with 3v, 50 pop limit, and 7:00 age 3).
300f 200w 100random should be better.

and the territory army should train faster: 3 changdao 3 arquebusier = 540 resource, but it takes 33 sec to train a batch :mad:

You misunderstood the change. The only possible crate starts for China after this change would be 200f 300w and 300f 300w.

zoom wrote:Can Chinese survive the Strelet all-in, somehow?

7 Steppe Riders and 5 Disciples kill strelets really fast, you know.

gamevideo113 wrote:Lastly, the german bonus buff (-50 instead of -30) would result in a 11% discount on normal old han army (from 6%) and a 9% discount on reformed old han army, so it is definitely a relevant bonus for that army, but more expensive armies like forbidden army would only gain a 6% discount from the german consulate.

I think the German consulate is already better than you consider it to be. There's actually a very minor bug with the consulate, where you will receive 15 resources of the resource that the banner army you are training does not cost.

So, for example, when you train an Old Han batch with German consulate, you will receive 15 coin. When you train a Forbidden Army batch you will receive 15 wood. Basically the bonus is already -45. The reason the German consulate isn't used very often is not because the resources you save aren't worth it, it's just that British consulate is worth far more when you're actually fighting, and the units you can train there are arguably worth more than the trickles anyway and pay off faster than the trickles would.

If you wanted to make German consulate viable you'd have to do something like change the 400 export army to 4 dopps instead of 3 (which might actually be insane in Colonial) and improve the Intervention shipment from 4 dopps to 5 dopps. None of it really feels necessary though, Idk.

Garja wrote:Ok fine, but then just dont buff China at all?

If you think they don't need any sort of buff, then sure leave them as is. It's hard to say whether or not they need one though, as hardly anyone plays them on EP at the moment. I do think they could be quite good, but I haven't really seen anyone other than myself playing them, so I haven't had much opportunity to play against them.

Anyway, as I've already said I'm fine with keeping the change or discarding it; doesn't really matter to me.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by zoom »

Mitoe wrote:
fei123456 wrote:it may be too op. if china has 200f 400w start it's just insane (4:30 age 2 with 3v, 50 pop limit, and 7:00 age 3).
300f 200w 100random should be better.

and the territory army should train faster: 3 changdao 3 arquebusier = 540 resource, but it takes 33 sec to train a batch :mad:

You misunderstood the change. The only possible crate starts for China after this change would be 200f 300w and 300f 300w.

zoom wrote:Can Chinese survive the Strelet all-in, somehow?

7 Steppe Riders and 5 Disciples kill strelets really fast, you know.

gamevideo113 wrote:Lastly, the german bonus buff (-50 instead of -30) would result in a 11% discount on normal old han army (from 6%) and a 9% discount on reformed old han army, so it is definitely a relevant bonus for that army, but more expensive armies like forbidden army would only gain a 6% discount from the german consulate.

I think the German consulate is already better than you consider it to be. There's actually a very minor bug with the consulate, where you will receive 15 resources of the resource that the banner army you are training does not cost.

So, for example, when you train an Old Han batch with German consulate, you will receive 15 coin. When you train a Forbidden Army batch you will receive 15 wood. Basically the bonus is already -45. The reason the German consulate isn't used very often is not because the resources you save aren't worth it, it's just that British consulate is worth far more when you're actually fighting, and the units you can train there are arguably worth more than the trickles anyway and pay off faster than the trickles would.

If you wanted to make German consulate viable you'd have to do something like change the 400 export army to 4 dopps instead of 3 (which might actually be insane in Colonial) and improve the Intervention shipment from 4 dopps to 5 dopps. None of it really feels necessary though, Idk.

Garja wrote:Ok fine, but then just dont buff China at all?

If you think they don't need any sort of buff, then sure leave them as is. It's hard to say whether or not they need one though, as hardly anyone plays them on EP at the moment. I do think they could be quite good, but I haven't really seen anyone other than myself playing them, so I haven't had much opportunity to play against them.

Anyway, as I've already said I'm fine with keeping the change or discarding it; doesn't really matter to me.
I'm not sure whether you're trolling me, but Strelet all-ins typically come with 9 Cossacks. Can you survive that?
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by momuuu »

About the China change:

In the case the map spawn is 100w crates, then China basically has 200f 200w base crates and gets a wood crate for free. I feel like these crates are actually slightly bad for China, because some other civs get a pretty big bonus from 200w starts (think France, Japan, Germany, India). Anyways, compared to a food start (+100f crates), China might be slightly stronger. But in reality China gains a small amount of extra vill seconds. I'd say though this is probably the most balanced crate starts, as China doesn't benefit nearly as much from the extra crates. Then on a +100c start, China is slightly favored because there's a plethora of civs that can't use the 100 coin too well (civs like India, Japan, Iro, Aztec, Sioux, Russia, Otto) so China's start is slightly stronger here. These are the standard crate spawns, and there's a case where china is slightly favored, slightly unfavored and one that I'd say represents optimal balance.

That being said, theres also two cases where china gets fucked over. If its a +100w/100f start, then China doesn't actually get the 100f. Its like China has 200f 200w base crates. Also, wood start is the best for quite a few civs that benefit much more from it than from other crates, and then china is also down 100f. China is completely fucked over in this scenario. Remember France went from considers the 2nd best civ to one of the worse civs when we took away 100f from them. If China is considered an average civ on normal crate spawns, which generally speaking it is I think, then China is UP if its a 100w/100f start. Then theres the 100c/100f start. In this case, its like the 100c start, except that the other civs also get 100f from it. Again, 100f is a big deal. Maybe China would've been favored against some civs that can't use the 100c too well, but with this crate start China is most definitely screwed over by civs that can play around with the market and is still in a worse position compared to the averabge 100f start, being down 100c.

This means that when balancing china the crate spawns matter a lot right now. If you balance China to being just right at 100f starts, which I think is the most neutral start right now, then that means they're a bit worse in 1 scenario (100w start), quite a bit worse in 1 scenario (100f+100c), completely fucked over in 1 scenario (100f+100w), and a bit better in the 100c start scenario.

If you were to fix the crate starts like proposed, in the 100w+100f scenario its just like the 100w scenario, except that 100 extra food for China is quite useful so I'd say this one would be a fair scenario, and in the 100f+100c start china is slightly favored, but this is much more desirable than that China is unplayable 1/5 times.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by gamevideo113 »

it's just that British consulate is worth far more when you're actually fighting, and the units you can train there are arguably worth more than the trickles anyway and pay off faster than the trickles would

Isn't this a good reason to buff the german consulate? (Applies to russian as well)
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by Garja »

Jerom wrote:About the China change:

In the case the map spawn is 100w crates, then China basically has 300f 200w base crates and gets a wood crate for free. I feel like these crates are actually slightly bad for China, because some other civs get a pretty big bonus from 200w starts (think France, Japan, Germany, India). Anyways, compared to a food start (+100f crates), China might be slightly stronger. But in reality China gains a small amount of extra vill seconds. I'd say though this is probably the most balanced crate starts, as China doesn't benefit nearly as much from the extra crates. Then on a +100c start, China is slightly favored because there's a plethora of civs that can't use the 100 coin too well (civs like India, Japan, Iro, Aztec, Sioux, Russia, Otto) so China's start is slightly stronger here. These are the standard crate spawns, and there's a case where china is slightly favored, slightly unfavored and one that I'd say represents optimal balance.

That being said, theres also two cases where china gets fucked over. If its a +100w/100f start, then China doesn't actually get the 100f. Its like China has 200f 200w base crates. Also, wood start is the best for quite a few civs that benefit much more from it than from other crates, and then china is also down 100f. China is completely fucked over in this scenario. Remember France went from considers the 2nd best civ to one of the worse civs when we took away 100f from them. If China is considered an average civ on normal crate spawns, which generally speaking it is I think, then China is UP if its a 100w/100f start. Then theres the 100c/100f start. In this case, its like the 100c start, except that the other civs also get 100f from it. Again, 100f is a big deal. Maybe China would've been favored against some civs that can't use the 100c too well, but with this crate start China is most definitely screwed over by civs that can play around with the market and is still in a worse position compared to the averabge 100f start, being down 100c.

This means that when balancing china the crate spawns matter a lot right now. If you balance China to being just right at 100f starts, which I think is the most neutral start right now, then that means they're a bit worse in 1 scenario (100w start), quite a bit worse in 1 scenario (100f+100c), completely fucked over in 1 scenario (100f+100w), and a bit better in the 100c start scenario.

If you were to fix the crate starts like proposed, in the 100w+100f scenario its just like the 100w scenario, except that 100 extra food for China is quite useful so I'd say this one would be a fair scenario, and in the 100f+100c start china is slightly favored, but this is much more desirable than that China is unplayable 1/5 times.

It seems like you don't have very clear what crates China gets. China base crates are 200f 300w. Please refer to this to make any conclusion:
Before change:
100w 0.166 Same as China
100g 0.166 Worse than China
100f 0.333 Worse than China
100w 100f 0.166 Better than China
100g 100f 0.166 Arguably same as China start or slightly better than China

After change
100w 0.166 Same as China
100g 0.166 Worse than China
100f 0.333 Worse than China
100w 100f 0.166 Same as China
100g 100f 0.166 Worse than China


About the strelet all in rush, it's not good vs China. Stagecoach strel-coss is. I'm rather sure tho that Russia is one of those cases where China can probably just stay colonial and be totally fine.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by Mitoe »

gamevideo113 wrote:
it's just that British consulate is worth far more when you're actually fighting, and the units you can train there are arguably worth more than the trickles anyway and pay off faster than the trickles would

Isn't this a good reason to buff the german consulate? (Applies to russian as well)
@Mitoe

I'm not saying it's a bad idea, just that it's not really needed and could complicate game balance. The German and Russian consulates are already viable in certain builds/situations.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by yurashic »

Garja wrote:China does fine vs germans, I played that MU and China units are in fact superior in the long run. Germans need to add some mercs to stand a chance.
China does fine vs all civs but Russia and Otto. Aztecs are not even a problem.


Would you like to practice China's matchups during this week?
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

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Post by deleted_user0 »

Could we change Russia vill batch to 300f? We have seen them so much on the previous tournaments and for example Germany and French have no chance against 5 coss 5 musk rush.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by momuuu »

Garja wrote:
Jerom wrote:About the China change:

In the case the map spawn is 100w crates, then China basically has 300f 200w base crates and gets a wood crate for free. I feel like these crates are actually slightly bad for China, because some other civs get a pretty big bonus from 200w starts (think France, Japan, Germany, India). Anyways, compared to a food start (+100f crates), China might be slightly stronger. But in reality China gains a small amount of extra vill seconds. I'd say though this is probably the most balanced crate starts, as China doesn't benefit nearly as much from the extra crates. Then on a +100c start, China is slightly favored because there's a plethora of civs that can't use the 100 coin too well (civs like India, Japan, Iro, Aztec, Sioux, Russia, Otto) so China's start is slightly stronger here. These are the standard crate spawns, and there's a case where china is slightly favored, slightly unfavored and one that I'd say represents optimal balance.

That being said, theres also two cases where china gets fucked over. If its a +100w/100f start, then China doesn't actually get the 100f. Its like China has 200f 200w base crates. Also, wood start is the best for quite a few civs that benefit much more from it than from other crates, and then china is also down 100f. China is completely fucked over in this scenario. Remember France went from considers the 2nd best civ to one of the worse civs when we took away 100f from them. If China is considered an average civ on normal crate spawns, which generally speaking it is I think, then China is UP if its a 100w/100f start. Then theres the 100c/100f start. In this case, its like the 100c start, except that the other civs also get 100f from it. Again, 100f is a big deal. Maybe China would've been favored against some civs that can't use the 100c too well, but with this crate start China is most definitely screwed over by civs that can play around with the market and is still in a worse position compared to the averabge 100f start, being down 100c.

This means that when balancing china the crate spawns matter a lot right now. If you balance China to being just right at 100f starts, which I think is the most neutral start right now, then that means they're a bit worse in 1 scenario (100w start), quite a bit worse in 1 scenario (100f+100c), completely fucked over in 1 scenario (100f+100w), and a bit better in the 100c start scenario.

If you were to fix the crate starts like proposed, in the 100w+100f scenario its just like the 100w scenario, except that 100 extra food for China is quite useful so I'd say this one would be a fair scenario, and in the 100f+100c start china is slightly favored, but this is much more desirable than that China is unplayable 1/5 times.

It seems like you don't have very clear what crates China gets. China base crates are 200f 300w. Please refer to this to make any conclusion:
Before change:
100w 0.166 Same as China
100g 0.166 Worse than China
100f 0.333 Worse than China
100w 100f 0.166 Better than China
100g 100f 0.166 Arguably same as China start or slightly better than China

After change
100w 0.166 Same as China
100g 0.166 Worse than China
100f 0.333 Worse than China
100w 100f 0.166 Same as China
100g 100f 0.166 Worse than China


About the strelet all in rush, it's not good vs China. Stagecoach strel-coss is. I'm rather sure tho that Russia is one of those cases where China can probably just stay colonial and be totally fine.

Oh, you nitpicked on a little mistake I made.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by Garja »

Judging from the conclusions you make it's not a nitpick. China has neutral or better crate spawn in most situations already. With the proposed change China will always have better or neutral spawn.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by momuuu »

Im just announcing that I'm not going to discuss with you because you are devoid of logic. Call it a policy I stand by.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by Garja »

Im just announcing I'm right once again. I posted proofs and you're dumbly ignoring them.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by momuuu »

The arrogance is real. You're so dense. I still remember the first time arguing with you, I legitemately thought you were trolling for like 20 posts until I realized you were actually serious.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by Garja »

Does it matter? I made a detailed post on actual starting crates and it seems everyone ignored it because it tell the truth, aka China doesn't need another random food crate.
Do you want to ignore it because I'm arrogant? Cool, let's ruin the game because of sympathy/dislike for others.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by momuuu »

Everyone ignores you because you're nonsensical and there's literally no point in discussing anything with you because you'll only want to look at it with your usually extremely arbitrary conditions while completely ignoring what everyone else says.

I'm sorry if this statement is unpleasant to you but thats how I see it.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by Garja »

It is not unpleasant because it's wrong. I'm right here and you can check it in the posts I made. And they are the farthest thing from arbitrary, unlike other arguments used in this topic.

Regarding the 100 f thing, you completely ignore the fact that China always has to chop 100 wood to either get 3 vills and not 2 or to get a tp while sending 2 vills. I mean, China is arguably the slowest civ to age up to colonial, only India or Japan can age up later than China but they usually choose to age up before 5 minutes. It is logical and reasonable to get 100 f more when your opponent gets it too.

There is actually nothing wrong in just sending two vills and not chop for the 2nd village. You can also go village+market and only chop for the hunt upgrade.
Also TP strats with 300w and nothern refuges are not that bad. You can always use 5-6 vills on wonder if concerned about age up time. Bear in mind that both India and China reach colonial with 20-21 vills, 4-6 vills more than euro civs. And they do it with proper age up bonuses.

We can play China MUs, if I will have time to play at all.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by tedere12 »

china feels pretty slow indeed, on some maps with cows, yaks, sheep ect you can age with 1 less vill if you want to and be up sooner, I wonder if that would change china's strength in age 2,maybe they can pull off some really good rush if they age up as early as euro civs but with better economy.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by Garja »

China is of course slower aging than most civs. But is that a problem? Like on EP you almost always get treasures that make you age under 5 min everytime. With very good conditions it can be even 4.30. With just 1 village can even be 4.10. I mean, in the no 700g variation of the FF you don't even use vills on wonder, aging at like 5.15 and still being totally fine.
And ye China always had a decent choku/pike rush similar to the european one. But it doesn't make sense in the current meta.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

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Post by EAGLEMUT »

Interesting discussion. I'm just stepping in to note that the original proposed change doesn't appear to be implementable from our side.
Personally, I like Garja's suggestion to adjust China fixed starting crates to 200f 200w and enable standard random-starting-crates behavior.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by zoom »

Garja wrote:Judging from the conclusions you make it's not a nitpick. China has neutral or better crate spawn in most situations already. With the proposed change China will always have better or neutral spawn.
Right. You're arguing from a peculiar point of view or principle, instead of looking at balance and design implications. It was not intended for Chinese to suddenly be down 100f every other game, and you know damn well it isn't.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by Garja »

But they're not down 100f? Sigh. How hard is to understand that fixed 100w fully compensates 2 inferior random crates?
Besides, does China suffer from the current starting crates? No.
And last but not least. If you really think 100f is so important for China, then make them exactly like other civs by removing the fixed 3rd wood crate and enabling the 2 random ones.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by momuuu »

Garja wrote:But they're not down 100f? Sigh. How hard is to understand that fixed 100w fully compensates 2 inferior random crates?
Besides, does China suffer from the current starting crates? No.
And last but not least. If you really think 100f is so important for China, then make them exactly like other civs by removing the fixed 3rd wood crate and enabling the 2 random ones.

This is why I don't want to argue with you. How does fixed 100w make up for a 100w 100f start? How is china not literally 100f behind then?
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by Ashvin »

Irony hits the moon by this post /\
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by deleted_user0 »

China is fking good already. Didn't mitoe beat Kaiser like 8-0 with them?

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