Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

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Sweden Gendarme
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by Gendarme »

If you get beat by a black star and aren't particularly surprised and say "Sepoy good unit" even though you aren't a noob, but are actually LordRaphael in the finals, I do not see any other proper response than nerfing sepoys.
Pay more attention to detail.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by deleted_user0 »

LOL nerf india?

Don't you know that germs, fre etc trash india already 100-0? xdd omg

edit: and china also 9000-0
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by deleted_user0 »

Goodspeed wrote:
Jerom wrote:I don't like the india changes. I find strong sepoys a core part of india and I find that india like that has a stable and constructive place in the meta.

Nerfing sepoys and buffing houses seems like a "we don't like that people can actually rush in this game" change.
The reliance on sepoy made India a one dimensional civ. We want to encourage intra-civ build variety. The Otto change is similar. General buff + jan nerf.

We think the issue is with those specific units because the Indian and Ottoman armies are currently 90% sepoy/jan in most match ups.

Dutch is not a one dimensional civ????

LOL
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by Goodspeed »

ssaraf wrote:I also don't like the sepoy nerf. Its like saying to ppl , listen you scrubs you should only make gurkha , that's how the game is supposed to be played. Noobs like you who make sepoy will be punished. I mean, its like removing a pretty huge weapon from there arsenal.
... and adding a buff as compensation, don't forget.

I look at it the other way around. We are not punishing people for making sepoy, they will still be a cost effective unit. Rather current India players are punished for NOT making sepoy, which is much worse because it limits options.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by Garja »

Darwin_ wrote:
Garja wrote:
Darwin_ wrote:I think a cool way to balance crate starts would instead of the game calculating the random crate(s) as the game loads, it instead chooses from like 3 set crate starts for each civ, each ranked in terms of power. lets say the patch team makes the three possible crate starts for india 400w/300f, 400w/200f, and 300w/200f: ranked 1, 2, and 3 respectively; and dutch's crate starts 400c/200w, 400c/100w/100f, and 400c/100w: again ranked 1, 2, and 3.

So when the game loads, instead of choosing whether there what the random crate will be (which in this matchup is incredibly imbalanced), it would choose which of their crate starts they would get, i.e. 1, 2, or 3.

This would result in much more balanced crate starts in matchups like this where the random crate can cause large imbalances, but it would also allow for more finely tuning and balancing starts (take germany for example, this crate system would allow for them to never start with 200 wood, but always start with 100 wood, unlike the current system where that just isn't possible. Same thing for iro (always give 100 wood), or japan (always give 300 wood))

Well, aside from a number of exception the same extra crate rank in the same order for all civs.
It's just that some civs can squeeze something more with the extra crates.

What are you trying to say?

Im' trying to say that, aside from some few exception, random crates rank in the same way. E.g.:
- 100f 100w is the best for all civs;
- 100w is the ranked 2nd for all civs;
- 100f 100g is ranked 3rd;
And so on.
If you think about it, the only exception is actually Dutch. All other civs tend to prefer 100f 100w.
So basically I don't see the point of ranking the possible crate permutations.
In your example, it's Dutch that benefits from gold and India that almost doesn't benefit at all (can always market with 100g). Also it's a particular example because India is somehow crate screwed if compared to other Asian civs or even just Dutch (100f 300w vs 400g 100w).

Btw, why is everyone talking about sepoy nerf? Are the patch notes out or?
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by lordraphael »

goodspeed himslef said there will be a sepoy nerf
breeze wrote: they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by momuuu »

Goodspeed wrote:
ssaraf wrote:I also don't like the sepoy nerf. Its like saying to ppl , listen you scrubs you should only make gurkha , that's how the game is supposed to be played. Noobs like you who make sepoy will be punished. I mean, its like removing a pretty huge weapon from there arsenal.
... and adding a buff as compensation, don't forget.

I look at it the other way around. We are not punishing people for making sepoy, they will still be a cost effective unit. Rather current India players are punished for NOT making sepoy, which is much worse because it limits options.

Yes and german players are punished for not making uhlans, which limits their options.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

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Post by Garja »

Ok seems legit change.
Anyway I will leave my idea of perfect patch. I know everyone has his own opinion and changes etc. Well this is mine. I'm rather confident that this would be the ideal compromise between balance/uniqueness of civs and also minimilastic approach.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

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Post by tedere12 »

lol so everyone has his own patch now?
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by Goodspeed »

Jerom wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:
ssaraf wrote:I also don't like the sepoy nerf. Its like saying to ppl , listen you scrubs you should only make gurkha , that's how the game is supposed to be played. Noobs like you who make sepoy will be punished. I mean, its like removing a pretty huge weapon from there arsenal.
... and adding a buff as compensation, don't forget.

I look at it the other way around. We are not punishing people for making sepoy, they will still be a cost effective unit. Rather current India players are punished for NOT making sepoy, which is much worse because it limits options.

Yes and german players are punished for not making uhlans, which limits their options.
Exactly... I'm confused, is this you agreeing or disagreeing with the change?

Uhlans are also getting nerfed. Dopp buff to compensate somewhat.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by Garja »

tedere12 wrote:lol so everyone has his own patch now?

ahah would be actually cool to test different patch builds at the same time. Too bad you would require like a super large playerbase.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by momuuu »

Goodspeed wrote:
Jerom wrote:
Show hidden quotes

Yes and german players are punished for not making uhlans, which limits their options.
Exactly... I'm confused, is this you agreeing or disagreeing with the change?

Uhlans are also getting nerfed. Dopp buff to compensate somewhat.

It was sarcastic. Im actually really disappointed now. Instead of balancing this seems like redesigning the game to yoyr arbitrary standards.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by Goodspeed »

Tough crowd
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by Dsy »

In this case i made my own patch also...:)
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

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Post by WickedCossack »

Since everyone's making their own patch I thought I'd chip in with my patch that I personally think will go a long way towards balancing the game:

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Many thanks.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

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Post by momuuu »

The beauty of aoe3 is diversity between civilizations; each civilization poses its own challenges in its shortcomings and strengths. Abuse their strengths and cover their weaknesses and you'll win. Because we have 14 civs, some civs might be one dimensional, or overly reliant on one sort of style, but these civs fill a role in the meta. Some of these weird civs require other civs to deviate from their generic gameplan, to mix up their strategies. India forces france to not blindly huss semi ff every game, they make germany reconsider their uhlan semi FF, they make british wonder how to beat a strong musketeer based army, india is a step away from the almost repetitive semi FF meta. It creates a defender vs aggressor scenario, it breaks the symmetry in the game. If you strive to give all civs all options, to take away strenghts and weaknesses from a civ, the game becomes repetitive. If one wants to play semi FF wars, one can play France vs France. If you want to see how a semi FF civ can deal with a strong rush, then you can play France vs India.

I likewise don't get the idea to nerf uhlans and buff dopps for germany. Germany is that one civ with destructive force in fortress age. They're the civ that can't be dealt with using brute force. You have to be smart about them, abuse the fact that both war wagons and dopps are not a great unit. You have to abuse the fact that they miss musketeers in age 2. You have to punish that weakness. Germany can cover that weakness, by playing age 2 smartly, raiding wisely and adding in crossbows when wise, by shipping black riders in age 3, and then in a balanced scenario you're trying to weaken them in the colonial stage and then either punish them before blackriders arrive or manage to deal with the blackriders and then force them to make war wagons. This is interesting to me. Make dopps better and you take away this entire dynamic.

Ive complained before about the sioux changes. Bow riders are a thing apart. Yes, maybe those were extremely strong, over the top, but the nerf was even more over the top. Sioux, on RE, poses a threat: Incredibly mobile, incredibly strong raiding units. Maybe it was a bit too one dimensional, although I'd even disagree with that premise. If given the chance on ESOC maps, I think sioux would've gained two options in the semi FF and the bowrider colonial play. Players would seek to pressure them, abuse the fact that they only have bowriders, have no minutemen, try to make it so they cant infinitely raid. That dynamic was removed, now sioux either can age up safely and destroy or they can't age up safely and they die. You can tweak them all you want, but if your only viable age 2 unit is a melee cav unit then you'll always struggle.

You can make civs the same, give all civs all options, but that doesn't make the game better. Yes maybe a civ is one dimensional in a sense, maybe it relies on only a few strats or unit compositions, that civ might fill an essential role in diversifying the game. Is it not a lot of fun to play as a civ trying to reach age 3 without taking too much damage from a rushing civ? Is it not great to play as a civ that went age 3 faster but will get outscaled by a booming civ? Is it not a great challenge to play as a handicapped civ that has to rely on some extraordinary unit being very effective to even stand a chance in the game? Why does every civ have to have a ton of options? Why do you want every civ to be able to boom, rush and semi FF? If one wants to have all those options, one can play France. Even if a civ in itself might only have a few strategies, it still diversifies the game as is. The game is interesting because there is a large amount of unique match ups. It would get boring quickly if the uniqueness, caused by civs having distinct strengths and weaknesses, is removed. Aoe3 does not shine in symmetric civ match ups, as build orders themselves allow for little diversity. Aoe3 shines in trying to figure out how to cover your weaknesses and emphasize on yoru strengths in an assymetric match up. Please do not change that what makes aoe3 fun.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by Dsy »

"The beauty of aoe3 is diversity between civilizations"

Says who plays only 1 civ...:DDDD
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by Asateo »

Waw, that's a nice post @momuuu
I fully agree.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by P i k i l i c »

Great post Jerom :smile: . I share the same thoughts. And the reflection is well expressed.
Consider not the one who speaks the truth, but the truth that is said

:hmm: AoE logic :hmm:
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by WickedCossack »

Jerom wrote:It creates a defender vs aggressor scenario, it breaks the symmetry in the game.


That's a nice quote that I can agree with, I do like me some variety.

Regarding the Sepoy specifically it seems there's a consensus it's too strong though so how do you nerf it? (if it all?)

The current change I've seen would mean Sepoys get 2 shotted by TC's which admittedly severely impacts on India's potential to do early damage against the French/Ger/Port/Dutch/China (Technically port could even 1 shot sepoys with 2tcs.) I guess you'd have to consulate rush every game to bump it back to 3 shots or play Fre/Ger/Port at their own semi FF game which is playing uphill a little (even with the house buff.)
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by Garja »

I agree to what you say Jerom but it is not put into perspective. The examples you pick are actually those were tweaking numbers doesn't distort the way the civ is designed.

Sepoy right now are just too strong so a little nerf won't change the way India is played. Of course depending on what the compensation is, it might change which I will not like it ofc. I think my suggestion don't change India way of playing too much for example. Also India needs a change anyway since the current way of playing them don't seem to be enough to ever beat some civs.
I also don't like nerfing ulhans and buffing dopps but not because it's a bad idea, just it makes more sense to buff xbows. Xbows are weak in general, they are shared with French (who also need them if they want to play long colonial) and they are the core of German no TP strategies.

BR were also simply too good. The EP nerf doesn't change the DPS so they do exactly the same if there are other units in front. Basically nerfing the HP was required in order to prevent BR deathball to just roll over any type of units. Now atleast ranged infantry can deal with them decently. Also TC scares them which is important, because they have insane dps vs vills.
Again, I agree with the way the civ was designed and how it should played/played against but BR were just over the top. Hence a tweak on their stats without changing their role.

And as for the FF meta I completely agree and I also want to add that if the meta is shifted to the fortress age nothing prevents the current semi FF civs to actually skip fortress and go industrial, which will make the game even more retarded with again only 1 production facility and unit card spam.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by WickedCossack »

Garja wrote:Sepoy right now are just too strong so a little nerf won't change the way India is played. Of course depending on what the compensation is, it might change which I will not like it ofc. I think my suggestion don't change India way of playing too much for example. Also India needs a change anyway since the current way of playing them don't seem to be enough to ever beat some civs.


The nerf crosses over the boundary of 3 shots to 2 shots to die from a TC so even though the HP change itself is small the impact would be quite big no? I feel like that would change how you would play vs the semi FF civs (which have for the most part always been indias hardest MU's) but maybe not the other civs (brits, jp, azzy, russia etc). Either you just pick another civ or consulate rush or try to eco age 3? I guess you could do a delayed consulate rush.

Presumably those civs you mention in your last sentence are some of the semi FF civs like Ports ?
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by momuuu »

If sepoy are 2 shot by town center then india can't rush ever again.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by WickedCossack »

Jerom wrote:If sepoy are 2 shot by town center then india can't rush ever again.


Well you can, but it would have to include a british consulate at some early point which is pretty restrictive in terms of your build and flexibility to adapt after.
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Re: Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

Post by Garja »

You can still totally rush. The 3 Tc shots thing is insane. China gets fucked hard by that I think for example, since even with 8 xbows first a sepoy run by is going to do decisive damage anyway. Japan is also doomed by a well done rush+contain. Most civs just struggle too much against sepoy evne if they make the exact counter to that (think about brits). That would be okish if that's all the civ has (think about otto jans) but all other India units are also very good and India can also go eco.
In fact I think that we some other compensation (e.g +100f at start which would be legit anyway) India could just do their normal colonial stuff and play colo vs fortress without being too far behind. In order for that to happen there must be some other nerf to the semi FF civs, which guess what I'm considering in my patch notes.
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