Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

[WickedCossack]

We saw them do it too much* in tournaments

Which games in particular are you referring to?

I had a brief look from the previous tourny at the later rounds, BS did a couple of cons rushes (which is the one aggresive strat the change neglects to some extent), it seems mitoe did a defensive gurhka vs aztecs and the one other india game bizarely was tit doing a 12 sepoy semi FF vs ports

I also recall from the finals before that we had a cons rush which raph defended but I cba to check the videos.

Are we sure the problem is not say with the cons rush and now you've nuked the other aggressive options but still left the one that was actually being used in place?

[Goodspeed]

Yeah we think the unit is the problem, not specifically the strategy. Anyway how's the cons rush not worse?
Maybe it'll involve more than just sepoy/redcoat now.

[Asateo]

Alternatively they can go for early gurkha pressure, or their own semi-FF. Sepoy rush shouldn't be their only option. If it is, there is clearly a problem. And without nerfing it we couldn't have buffed India in the way that we did, because sepoy play would've been even better and that would've done little to encourage different play.

This will still be perfectly viable, probably even stronger due to the house change. Perhaps your harass force changes from 12 sepoy to 5 gurkha 4 sowar and 2 sepoy. This was a common early harass strategy for India in the ASFP days, where there was not even a house cost buff.

India can't go early gurkha because it's weak, even zambs get beaten by cav in early game without the upgrades.
5 gurkha and 4 sowar get easily beaten by cav and 2 (nerfed!) sepoy are not going to change that.What you suggest would encourage one dimensional play from the opponent!

I don't know what the reduction in house cost is what you propose, but India's houses are already cheap. In early game saving some wood say 5 houses might speed things up a bit, but imo it's not by a long shot compensating for nerfing sepoy. The longer the game lasts, the less wood is a problem for india. 2nd trickle is send, age 3 wonder is often tower which gives 800w...

Has this actually been tested?

Furthermore, it is india specific that it still makes musks in age 3. Another skirm goon civ would reduce civ diversity...

[WickedCossack]

How's the cons rush not worse?
Maybe it'll involve more than just sepoy now.

I guess the 6 musketeers adds to the composition.

Idk it does feel the most mundane of all the options to execute, there's no choices. All the times it was used it was a straight card order build, no market. There's no choices about what market ups you want and when, how many sepoys to cut in favour of eco etc You kinda have to get full batches of sepoys, there's no other structures in your base, just no choices. All the times it was used in the tournaments it was 300exp 5 sepoy -> push -> game effectively ends. There's no flexibility or options to adapt out of it. But that's just my own opinion, I'm a little biased since I play with india a lot.

But back to my previous point, since you made the claim that it's the only thing we see in tournaments could you show me the games to support that statement?

I think I checked up to the quarter finals from the last event and saw 4 india games, all 4 of which don't seem to have an issue that this particular sepoy nerf is intended to target. Like I said I don't have an issue with a sepoy nerf since it seems the general consensus that it's too strong but are you sure this nerf is targeted at the right aspect of the Sepoy?

[Mitoe]

I think I checked up to the quarter finals from the last event and saw 4 india games, all 4 of which don't seem to have an issue that this particular sepoy nerf is intended to target. Like I said I don't have an issue with a sepoy nerf since it seems the general consensus that it's too strong but are you sure this nerf is targeted at the right aspect of the Sepoy?

I don't remember exactly, but I'm pretty sure all the non-sepoy related builds lost, did they not? Edit: Actually, I guess I won mine vs Erik's Aztec; but to be fair he did walk into by base past the agra and planted his army inbetween my agra and TC so...

Alternatively; we could consider increasing the cost of sepoy by 5f or something similar. With the house change, this will make make the aggressive builds still relatively easy to perform, but using sepoy becomes less desirable after the early game.

[WickedCossack]

I think I checked up to the quarter finals from the last event and saw 4 india games, all 4 of which don't seem to have an issue that this particular sepoy nerf is intended to target. Like I said I don't have an issue with a sepoy nerf since it seems the general consensus that it's too strong but are you sure this nerf is targeted at the right aspect of the Sepoy?

I don't remember exactly, but I'm pretty sure all the non-sepoy related builds lost, did they not?

Out of those 4 games the only one that lost was the tit pure 12 sepoy semi FF so quite the opposite.

Furthermore I just checked the twc event incase I'd missed a cascade of these games that supports your claim they're used every game (since I didn't see a lot of it so I could be out of the loop.) I checked to the quarters again and India was used 5 times and there's 2 defensive gurhkas, 1 GFA 600c 600w build, 1 nookta rush (aiz), 1 karni stable start.

That's 9 Indian games I've checked now and not a single one has an issue that the sepoy nerf is intended to target. Considering the justification for the nerf was that "it's all we see", could I ask once again for what games you are referring to?

Once again I'm not against a nerf, I'm just not convinced by the justification supporting this specifically targeted nerf to reduce the TC fire to 2 shots. Are you sure another nerf would not be more appropriate?

[Goodspeed]

Only ones I remember are the one in the finals and one where I got sepoy rushed myself. That's the only 2 times I saw India in the tournament, then again I definitely didn't watch all games. I have heard from multiple sources that sepoy play is too common in high level India games, though. And to be fair the BSOP/Raph game clearly shows there's a problem on its own.

India can't go early gurkha because it's weak, even zambs get beaten by cav in early game without the upgrades.

Then add sepoy for anticav. It's not like the unit is useless now. In theory though, gurkha with their better range should be the superior harass unit.

[ssaraf]

Furthermore, it is india specific that it still makes musks in age 3. Another skirm goon civ would reduce civ diversity...

Yeah i totally agree with this. It alwaz seems to me that EP literally doesnt want any other compositions other than skirm goon. We already have sooooo many of such civs.

Also, the nerf and buff u suggested arent at same levels. The house buff doesnt even matter after a point of time, whereas ppl do make gurha , sepoy , sowar/mahout OR sepoy mahout OR compositions mahout urumi compositions even in age3. Then how is that 1 dimensional? In this case as with almost every euro civ the skir goon thing becomes 1-D.

Also, the reason ppl still make these compositions (P.S same with ashi-yumi , ashi FA , ashi nagi compositions) is bcoz their musk unit is good which itself is kinda unique.

We saw them do it too much* in tournaments

Just bcoz BSOP pulled off a couple of cons-sepoy rushes vs few top level players doesnt warrant the change imo.

P.S : I dont even main India, I mostly play France and at my level sepoys are a huge pain to deal with, but still it does feel
a good challenge to deal with them.

[Garja]

Still a bit skeptical re india.

From my experience I feel like you need to do a bit of damage against the semi FF civs with early aggression, and on ESOC maps that means walking in range of TC fire. You don't have to walk behind the TC or anything crazy but usually to siege a house/market or shoot a villager you have to be in TC range and that doesn't seem cost effective anymore. (Excluding cons rush.) So your other option is to contain with no damage on the enemy semi FF civ, well they can just push out and win if they took no damage by 9 or 10 mins? You're not containing anything since they're not yet out of resources on I assume most maps.

Also how does it affect a MU like india/japan that seems finely tuned with the expectation atm that india is taking an insane amount of TC fire shots in the early game with sepoys? You can't do that anymore but at the same time I don't like giving japan any time.

On the plus side they will be the best water civ in the game so I guess you just play them really situationaly now.

I'm not against a Sepoy nerf but crossing the TC threshold will have very big consequences.

Try slinged sepoy/gurka build. You age with karni mata and send 600w, trickle, 600g 700f etc. (no early consulate). Mass them from 2 raxes and do a first timing at about 7.30-8.00. Then go back and keep massing. Eventually you can add a stable and make like 5 sowar timed with 4 sowar. This almost works vs a French semi. It kinda fails vs Germans tho, cause Germans just too OP and they mass the exact counter combo.
India-Japan is in favor of India I'd say. Just do normal sepoy rush with pure gurka sowar following. Do constant pressure for like 3 batches of units. Eventually he should be able to hold with maybe a unit shipment but you're sending eco cards behind the rush. Keep making units and siege shrines. If he sneaks a random age up, age yourself. He will have inferior eco and will be housed if he grows an army. In case of aggressive jap builds just stay more conservative and profit by the fact he is doing a suboptimal build vs India standard build.

What's the house change btw?

[WickedCossack]

So let me get this straight:

To support a justification for the change:

It's the only thing we saw them do in tournaments.

Which was quickly amended to:

We saw them do it too much* in tournaments

After which I checked all India games used in quarter finals and up from the last 2 esoc events which included 9 games (all strategies listed specifically in previous posts) and none of them had this issue, the defense is:

Only ones I remember are the one in the finals and one where I got sepoy rushed myself. That's the only 2 times I saw India in the tournament, then again I definitely didn't watch all games. I have heard from multiple sources that sepoy play is too common in high level India games, though. And to be fair the BSOP/Raph game clearly shows there's a problem on its own.

A consulate rush which is the one aggressive option that is least hit by your specific targeted change. Not to mention I posed the question a few posts ago "are you sure it's not the consulate rush that is actually the issue?"

And the other game was ... when someone sepoy rushed you?

Ok.

At this point regardless of whether the change is even a good one or not the methodology here is seriously sketchy.

[HUMMAN]

I have a suggestion: make sepoy hp 2 tc fire + 1 or 2 vil shot. In low levels, it would be same india. In high levels it will be decided by the player who has better micro.
Also dont be so radical, goodspeed is trying something good for aoe3, instead of saying "lol its bs" make constructive critisism.

[WickedCossack]

Try slinged sepoy/gurka build. You age with karni mata and send 600w, trickle, 600g 700f etc. (no early consulate). Mass them from 2 raxes and do a first timing at about 7.30-8.00. Then go back and keep massing. Eventually you can add a stable and make like 5 sowar timed with 4 sowar. This almost works vs a French semi. It kinda fails vs Germans tho, cause Germans just too OP and they mass the exact counter combo.
India-Japan is in favor of India I'd say. Just do normal sepoy rush with pure gurka sowar following. Do constant pressure for like 3 batches of units. Eventually he should be able to hold with maybe a unit shipment but you're sending eco cards behind the rush. Keep making units and siege shrines. If he sneaks a random age up, age yourself. He will have inferior eco and will be housed if he grows an army. In case of aggressive jap builds just stay more conservative and profit by the fact he is doing a suboptimal build vs India standard build.

What's the house change btw?

The house change is 50w which is admittedly quite significant in respect to all builds.

[Mitoe]

Yeah i totally agree with this. It alwaz seems to me that EP literally doesnt want any other compositions other than skirm goon. We already have sooooo many of such civs.

To my knowledge actually, there are a few changes directed at nerfing skirm/goon (or at least goons), and almost no buffs to it (aside from upcoming Wakina buffs).

Dragoon ranged resistance decreased to 20% (down from 30%).

Bow Rider hitpoints decreased to 220 (down from 250).

Genitours home-city shipment effect changed to give additional +4 range (down from +6).

[ssaraf]

i m sensing a 185hp settlement here even though i would like the cost (10 food or 5 gold) nerf.

Its like bargaining at a fish market

[Asateo]

@HUMMAN WC is simply pointing out that GS is supporting his claim on nothing then his own experience, while saying otherwise. That's quit scientifically minded and engaged in the discussion, not just calling bs.

[ssaraf]

If its 185 , then it wud be soo poetic. 185 = 2 TC shots + 1 explorer shot. India actually must save its explorer (elephants) to actually perform the rush successfully and now the defending civ needs the explorer to defend the same rush. [JUST WOW ]

[Garja]

Try slinged sepoy/gurka build. You age with karni mata and send 600w, trickle, 600g 700f etc. (no early consulate). Mass them from 2 raxes and do a first timing at about 7.30-8.00. Then go back and keep massing. Eventually you can add a stable and make like 5 sowar timed with 4 sowar. This almost works vs a French semi. It kinda fails vs Germans tho, cause Germans just too OP and they mass the exact counter combo.
India-Japan is in favor of India I'd say. Just do normal sepoy rush with pure gurka sowar following. Do constant pressure for like 3 batches of units. Eventually he should be able to hold with maybe a unit shipment but you're sending eco cards behind the rush. Keep making units and siege shrines. If he sneaks a random age up, age yourself. He will have inferior eco and will be housed if he grows an army. In case of aggressive jap builds just stay more conservative and profit by the fact he is doing a suboptimal build vs India standard build.

What's the house change btw?

The house change is 50w which is admittedly quite significant in respect to all builds.

That might work, also considering that it only matters if you make units.

[HUMMAN]

@Asateo Yea wc is legit, i did not point him. I just feel like some people are not acting positive in discussions like this.

[Dsy]

You cant make sepoys be two shotted by tc. That would be an awful change.
Anyway my own experience i dont even find india a strong rush civ. Its just try to give you constant pressure. In azzy vs india its always the india guy defend. And noone talks nerf azzi rush...

[deleted_user]

You're not really grasping the concept.

[Goodspeed]

So let me get this straight:

To support a justification for the change:

It's the only thing we saw them do in tournaments.

Which was quickly amended to:

We saw them do it too much* in tournaments

After which I checked all India games used in quarter finals and up from the last 2 esoc events which included 9 games (all strategies listed specifically in previous posts) and none of them had this issue, the defense is:

Only ones I remember are the one in the finals and one where I got sepoy rushed myself. That's the only 2 times I saw India in the tournament, then again I definitely didn't watch all games. I have heard from multiple sources that sepoy play is too common in high level India games, though. And to be fair the BSOP/Raph game clearly shows there's a problem on its own.

A consulate rush which is the one aggressive option that is least hit by your specific targeted change. Not to mention I posed the question a few posts ago "are you sure it's not the consulate rush that is actually the issue?"

And the other game was ... when someone sepoy rushed you?

Ok.

At this point regardless of whether the change is even a good one or not the methodology here is seriously sketchy.

The methodology is that I heard from multiple sources that sepoy are a problem in high level play, which I was under the impression is supported by tournament games in which players tend to favour builds that revolve around them. Maybe not in the most recent event, then. Maybe only in the games I saw, not all of which I can recall on command. It doesn't really matter, India hasn't changed in a while and sepoy builds have been prevalent for a long time. On RE, as well. I don't think we saw a lot of India in recent events anyway, which is partly why we want to change them.
I know from talking to high level players and from my own experience playing the civ that styles not involving early sepoy pressure simply come up short in most match ups, but I don't like to argue based on experience because people then tend to bring up that I don't play the game anymore so I don't know shit.

I understand where you're coming from but you're nitpicking here. Obviously I wouldn't base a change solely on non-existent tournament data. It's tiring being forced to explain everything in such detail, so please cut me some slack when I try to cut corners. You're right though. It is what I signed up for.

What's the house change btw?

50w

[Darwin_]

Ok seems legit change.
Anyway I will leave my idea of perfect patch. I know everyone has his own opinion and changes etc. Well this is mine. I'm rather confident that this would be the ideal compromise between balance/uniqueness of civs and also minimilastic approach.

Honestly, aside from the Japan and India changes I really like this. For india, I would personally get rid of the population thing for trickles, as well as counter-buffing sepoys in some way (maybe reducing cost to 90f 25g or something like that). And for japan, I would't do any of those changes and instead I would just make golden pavilion scale off of base stats (instead of upgraded), and give them an extra food crate. Most of the other changes look really good to me (maybe do 4.5 speed wakinas instead of 20 range but honestly both are fine).

[Atomiswave]

I get Goodspeed's mindset, as long as sepoy rush is most optimal way of playing India, whatever you do, ppl will continue to do it, until you nerf sepoy a bit. Only then, players will be given incentive to try something else.

[WickedCossack]

The methodology is that I heard from multiple sources that sepoy are a problem in high level play, which I was under the impression is supported by tournament games in which players tend to favour builds that revolve around them.

Sure Sepoy are a good unit, I think that's clear to everyone. I've been pretty consistent in all my posts that my criticism is to do with your specific nerf due to its implications (2 shot TC) and I am not criticising a nerf in general.

Maybe not in the most recent event, then. Maybe only in the games I saw, not all of which I can recall on command. It doesn't really matter

Considering the nature of RTS games everyone get's pissed when they lose so when someone says something is an issue I wonder to myself are they annoyed or is there something here to support their claim other than emotions. When I look at your suggested nerf and then I look at the highest level games from the past 2 tournaments and see that the nerf does not target any of those games at all that is a cause for concern.

India hasn't changed in a while and sepoy builds have been prevalent for a long time. On RE, as well. I don't think we saw a lot of India in recent events anyway, which is partly why we want to change them.

Yea Sepoy are prevalent. What's the argument that it is an issue? I would suggest 90% of Japan games include Ashi built at some point. The same could be said of almost any civ and a particular unit, e.g aztecs and mace, port and dragoons, germany and uhlans and so on. Prevalence itself is not an argument.

I know from talking to high level players and from my own experience playing the civ that styles not involving early sepoy pressure simply come up short in most match ups, but I don't like to argue based on experience because people then tend to bring up that I don't play the game anymore so I don't know shit.

I agree, especially against semi FF civs it does feel if you don't do some early sepoy aggression you do come up a little short. I don't think many people are in disagreement over this point, just the solution no? Your solution appears to be wiping out a whole play style.

I understand where you're coming from but you're nitpicking here. Obviously I wouldn't base a change solely on non-existent tournament data. It's tiring being forced to explain everything in such detail, so please cut me some slack when I try to cut corners. You're right though. It is what I signed up for.

Crossing that TC fire threshold is a big change. I'm concerned you even see it as nitpicking. Do you not think it's a significant change then? Irrespective of balance you've closed off a number of build orders, aggression BO's would see a decline apart from the consulate rush which I alluded to earlier isn't super that interesting to watch since there's no choices or flexibility, it's an all-in.

I've read your posts here pretty carefully and I have not seen any detail. It's not a case of questioning the detail you have provided, you haven't provided any!

I'm expected to cut you some slack because you can not and have not justified your position? Either you justify your position or you change it. I've even been charitable and assumed the problem exists despite the videos I looked through from the previous high level tournaments in the past year not supporting it, I've already credited you with more slack than your argument deserves.

[Garja]

Well sepoy is a unit that had to be nerfed regardless, a bit like old ashigaru. More so if then India needs other buffs.