Why is there no new Patch Version before the the Autumn Tournament?

[Dsy]

Btw sepoy is same cost effective as a musk. Its better only cause there is no overkill in their damage output vs musks.

[WickedCossack]

Oh you're still on this? I thought I had made this clear already but allow me to put it in no uncertain terms this time: The way I feel about Indians is not based on tournament data. It's based on conversations I've had with high level players, on my general understanding of balance as it is on EP 3, and on my own experience playing the civ. In that order. I was under the impression that tournament data supported my and other players' opinion that sepoy are a problem. Maybe that's not true. The reason I was under that impression could be some combination of coincidence (I happened to see the games where sepoy were prevalent) and confirmation bias. It doesn't matter though. I (apparently wrongly) mentioned this data because that way I don't have to fall back on arguing based purely on data that is not available to the public.

I'd probably still be raising an issue if only 50% of Indian games showed an issue of this problem you are trying to counter. The data shows 0% and you don't bat an eyelid. That's absolutely absurd to me. I know when I see out of the 70 or so games Germany were used in the recent data and 90%+ are semi FF's that yea semi FF must be quite a strong strategy. You brush it off so easily, it's crazy to me how you can be so convinced of something when you can't point to anything concrete.

So it rests on your conversations with high level players. Are these players saying that the Sepoy is a strong unit in general or are too strong in the specific instances that your change is targeting? Heck I've already said I think Sepoy are a strong unit but there's a clear distinction between that and deciding the issue is specifically with a pure sepoy rush and not with the british consulate, or british east india company, or train time, or unit attack, or unit cost, or hp scaling in the 3rd age etc

Can any of the "high level players" who influenced you actually come out and say something? Considering half of the high level players we have currently already posted in this thread were not aware of the change that narrows it significantly in terms of who you talked to. I talked to Mitoe a couple of days ago who said he never builds Sepoy and specifically said they were not a problem when I asked him about this change. I know h20 refuses to build Sepoy and on countless occasions has said to go Gurhka and backs this up with his gameplay. BSOP goes brit cons rush every time he can negating your change. At this point I'm running out of India players who's opinions I'd give some credit to.

[Aizamk]

3 British Consulate rushes
4 Defensive Gurhkas into stables
1 Karni Stable start
1 GFA 600/600
1 Nookta rush
1 Howdah FF
1 12 Sepoy semi FF

So only 3 games out of 12 were rushes and they were all consulate rushes

what are you trying to imply here

[HUMMAN]

He meant sepoy orianted rush, not imba aiz rush :d

[yemshi]

3 British Consulate rushes
4 Defensive Gurhkas into stables
1 Karni Stable start
1 GFA 600/600
1 Nookta rush
1 Howdah FF
1 12 Sepoy semi FF

So only 3 games out of 12 were rushes and they were all consulate rushes

what are you trying to imply here

Nice Avatar.

[Goodspeed]

I'd probably still be raising an issue if only 50% of Indian games showed an issue of this problem you are trying to counter. The data shows 0% and you don't bat an eyelid. That's absolutely absurd to me. I know when I see out of the 70 or so games Germany were used in the recent data and 90%+ are semi FF's that yea semi FF must be quite a strong strategy. You brush it off so easily, it's crazy to me how you can be so convinced of something when you can't point to anything concrete.

I'm not convinced of anything. The data doesn't show 0%, though. This change affects any playstyle that heavily relies on sepoy, and we saw plenty of those. Just the fact that 3/12 builds used in the event were all ins is concerning to me. An all in is gimmicky and should only win if it was a surprise and/or a direct counter to the opponent's strategy. You wouldn't expect to see such builds 1/4 of the games played in a competitive event, much less in the finals of said event.
And just because other strategies were used doesn't mean they are actually viable, or that they aren't very match up specific like the howdah FF. It's my understanding India's non-sepoy options are underwhelming. Do you disagree?

So it rests on your conversations with high level players. Are these players saying that the Sepoy is a strong unit in general or are too strong in the specific instances that your change is targeting? Heck I've already said I think Sepoy are a strong unit but there's a clear distinction between that and deciding the issue is specifically with a pure sepoy rush and not with the british consulate, or british east india company, or train time, or unit attack, or unit cost, or hp scaling in the 3rd age etc

The issue is with the unit, not necessarily any particular strategy that involves it. As I mentioned earlier in reply to Jerom, I consider the unit to be the cause and the various Indian all in/early pressure builds that popped up to be symptoms.

[Asateo]

You are 1 person, and we are talking about 1 change. Yes, we could dig into every little thing we disagree about. We could do that, and I'm sorry, you know I like discussions so I would like to indulge you, but I don't have the time nor the energy to do it. Besides, I don't think it would help either of us.

Clearly you put alot of work in this. Nobody is denying that, and I do understand that it is tiring hear peoples thoughts about it. Jerom is however not the only one to have doubts... Maybe someone else can defend the change if you are weary of explaining. Cutting the community out of a community patch seems a bit odd though.

That being said if the course does not change, at least one high level player, doubted in this thread that the house buff would be enough.

its actually a pretty neat change. In line with indias civ bonus and buffs everything not a specific build. I fear its not enough of a buff (tho i have been quite bad at predicting such things ) but the change itself is decent.

[gamevideo113]

If musks go down in 2 shots that doesnt indicate sepoy must too. By that logic cdb, sw, sowar, cuiraseur etc shouldnt exist.

The issue is, in the TC vs Sepoy scenario, that the sepoy has the survivability of a janissary while also having 5 more attack than it, and it even costs less. If the cost effectiveness of the unit is already ok, as somppukunkku pointed out, then it might be necessary to decrease the unit's cost in order to balance the nerf in scenarios that aren't TC vs Sepoy.
I am not well informed on the consequences that this change might have on the possible strategies for india, but with the british consulate sepoys would be able to survive 3 TC shots again, and if india is getting another general buff (house cost), then i think it is early to tell if the civ would be heavily hindered by the nerf.
(Indian monks can also heal, and even one single healed hitpoint could make sepoys survive a third shot after one shot has already been landed on them.)

[Goodspeed]

You are 1 person, and we are talking about 1 change. Yes, we could dig into every little thing we disagree about. We could do that, and I'm sorry, you know I like discussions so I would like to indulge you, but I don't have the time nor the energy to do it. Besides, I don't think it would help either of us.

Clearly you put alot of work in this. Nobody is denying that, and I do understand that it is tiring hear peoples thoughts about it. Jerom is however not the only one to have doubts... Maybe someone else can defend the change if you are weary of explaining. Cutting the community out of a community patch seems a bit odd though.

Oh is that what I'm doing?

[Asateo]

You are 1 person, and we are talking about 1 change. Yes, we could dig into every little thing we disagree about. We could do that, and I'm sorry, you know I like discussions so I would like to indulge you, but I don't have the time nor the energy to do it. Besides, I don't think it would help either of us.

Clearly you put alot of work in this. Nobody is denying that, and I do understand that it is tiring hear peoples thoughts about it. Jerom is however not the only one to have doubts... Maybe someone else can defend the change if you are weary of explaining. Cutting the community out of a community patch seems a bit odd though.

Oh is that what I'm doing?

It felt a bit like that when you gave up explaining.

[Goodspeed]

Show hidden quotes

You are 1 person, and we are talking about 1 change. Yes, we could dig into every little thing we disagree about. We could do that, and I'm sorry, you know I like discussions so I would like to indulge you, but I don't have the time nor the energy to do it. Besides, I don't think it would help either of us.

Clearly you put alot of work in this. Nobody is denying that, and I do understand that it is tiring hear peoples thoughts about it. Jerom is however not the only one to have doubts... Maybe someone else can defend the change if you are weary of explaining. Cutting the community out of a community patch seems a bit odd though.

Oh is that what I'm doing?

It felt a bit like that when you gave up explaining.

I didn't give up explaining. There are only so many hours in a day. Trust me I take feedback seriously. I mean shit, I've been putting off work to post ITT. Talk about fucked up priorities.

[spanky4ever]

I for 1 have great respect and beleaf in @Goodspeed when it comes to make changes to the pach. There will always be more ingratitude being on display, But I guess most ppl are thankfull for the great job he is doing. Just had to get that off my chest

[princeofkabul]

why not try to buff the units vs the sepoy? we all know india rushes hard vs french and germans for example.(otherwise they'll get trashed cause india semi is simply too slow) why not simply buff crossbows a bit since we all know they're quite underwhelming unit.

maybe slight buff for chuko's aswell? since the old han got nerfed to the ground i don't see how this could be an issue. and it would courage maybe more age 2 chinese actions overall. they're one of the weakest if not the weakest colonial civilization now anyway.

[Garja]

Sepoy is not cost efficient, it is simply too strong, especially after brit consulate and other upgrades. Just like yumi or ashi are not cost effective but they are extremely strong, especially after the upgrades.
I don't know why everyone is crying for a unit that has always been a balance issue.

Lets also nerf 2 SW because that shipment has always been too strong and needed a nerf regardless of germany's state.

3 SW has never been as is not as problematic as sepoy unit. Yet 3 SW is something would make sense to nerf since Germans are strong and 3 SW being the first colonial card doesn't suffer from the xp penalty. It's pretty much the same thing as old 9xbow card.

Btw sepoy is same cost effective as a musk. Its better only cause there is no overkill in their damage output vs musks.

No, it's better because when base stats are high the upgrades get out of control. Same thing for jap units, cuirs hp and ERK attack.
In the sepoy case they also raises problem in early game since India can use it from the start.

why not try to buff the units vs the sepoy? we all know india rushes hard vs french and germans for example.(otherwise they'll get trashed cause india semi is simply too slow) why not simply buff crossbows a bit since we all know they're quite underwhelming unit.

maybe slight buff for chuko's aswell? since the old han got nerfed to the ground i don't see how this could be an issue. and it would courage maybe more age 2 chinese actions overall. they're one of the weakest if not the weakest colonial civilization now anyway.

Thing is chukos, maces and other units like that are already great so they don't need any buff. They do counter sepoys but India can abuse them too easily. Even in mirror sepoy often deal too well vs gurkha.

Anyway, one thing none considered is that it still takes 10 vills to 2 shot sepoys. With other units you need less. And in fact that's something players (at high level at least) sohuld consider more.

[princeofkabul]

Im talking about slight buff obviously. afterall they're food wood unit. maybe with this change we could see more bow play overall.

[Garja]

Xbows do need a buff in general. They tend to suck vs everything, not just musks but also other better RI. Chokus are great, they have x2 vs HI and 4.5 speed, also cheaper than xbows. Maces also cheaper with 30% rr, x2 vs HI and 4.5 speed. Aenna 5 speed, x2 vs HI and lot of ups. It's just xbows that really suck balls.

[n0el]

CKN are fine really. They really only aren’t good when fighting sepoy. They do fine against ashi jans and muskets.

[WickedCossack]

I'm not convinced of anything. The data doesn't show 0%, though. This change affects any playstyle that heavily relies on sepoy, and we saw plenty of those. Just the fact that 3/12 builds used in the event were all ins is concerning to me. An all in is gimmicky and should only win if it was a surprise and/or a direct counter to the opponent's strategy. You wouldn't expect to see such builds 1/4 of the games played in a competitive event, much less in the finals of said event.
And just because other strategies were used doesn't mean they are actually viable, or that they aren't very match up specific like the howdah FF. It's my understanding India's non-sepoy options are underwhelming. Do you disagree?

The 0% was referring to how your change affects those strategies. You laid out that a 2 shot sepoy was the key intention of the change. British consulate all-ins make a Sepoy take 3 shots from the tc. I thought that was pretty clear. Now is it a strong all-in strategy? Sure. That's why I keep asking you are you sure that maybe that's not more of the problem? Yet your change doesn't address that problem. It addresses something else where the data does show 0%.

I mean if you're going to argue that 12 out of 12 strategies used all in the quarters/semis/finals of the big recent esoc events for prizes of $1000 are not actually that viable then ok.

India's non sepoy options feel underwhelming against the semi FF meta style civs e.g fre,ger,port etc Against other player civs that have a very different style like brits, japan, aztecs, sioux, russia etc they seem pretty finely balanced and there's no issue.

The issue is with the unit, not necessarily any particular strategy that involves it. As I mentioned earlier in reply to Jerom, I consider the unit to be the cause and the various Indian all in/early pressure builds that popped up to be symptoms.

The unit is affected by lots of various factors and upgrades throughout the game. I don't think getting rid of a pressure build like a slow sepoy rush is good for the game. It's not an all-in and creates a decent length game with constant action all the way through out.

If the issue is with the unit as you say and not any particular strategy that involves it then why does the change focus so much on crossing the TC threshold which mainly does affect a particular strategy.

I still would like to know which India players suggested to you that making sure the Sepoy gets 2 shotted by the TC would be the best fix for the unit since we've obviously talked to two unique sets of top players.

[Hazza54321]

yeah lets have another skirm goon 2 hands on dick tp stagecoach civ

[Darwin_]

yeah lets have another skirm goon 2 hands on dick tp stagecoach civ

*3 hands

[lordraphael]

I'm not convinced of anything. The data doesn't show 0%, though. This change affects any playstyle that heavily relies on sepoy, and we saw plenty of those. Just the fact that 3/12 builds used in the event were all ins is concerning to me. An all in is gimmicky and should only win if it was a surprise and/or a direct counter to the opponent's strategy. You wouldn't expect to see such builds 1/4 of the games played in a competitive event, much less in the finals of said event.
And just because other strategies were used doesn't mean they are actually viable, or that they aren't very match up specific like the howdah FF. It's my understanding India's non-sepoy options are underwhelming. Do you disagree?

The 0% was referring to how your change affects those strategies. You laid out that a 2 shot sepoy was the key intention of the change. British consulate all-ins make a Sepoy take 3 shots from the tc. I thought that was pretty clear. Now is it a strong all-in strategy? Sure. That's why I keep asking you are you sure that maybe that's not more of the problem? Yet your change doesn't address that problem. It addresses something else where the data does show 0%.

I mean if you're going to argue that 12 out of 12 strategies used all in the quarters/semis/finals of the big recent esoc events for prizes of $1000 are not actually that viable then ok.

India's non sepoy options feel underwhelming against the semi FF meta style civs e.g fre,ger,port etc Against other player civs that have a very different style like brits, japan, aztecs, sioux, russia etc they seem pretty finely balanced and there's no issue.

The issue is with the unit, not necessarily any particular strategy that involves it. As I mentioned earlier in reply to Jerom, I consider the unit to be the cause and the various Indian all in/early pressure builds that popped up to be symptoms.

The unit is affected by lots of various factors and upgrades throughout the game. I don't think getting rid of a pressure build like a slow sepoy rush is good for the game. It's not an all-in and creates a decent length game with constant action all the way through out.

If the issue is with the unit as you say and not any particular strategy that involves it then why does the change focus so much on crossing the TC threshold which mainly does affect a particular strategy.

I still would like to know which India players suggested to you that making sure the Sepoy gets 2 shotted by the TC would be the best fix for the unit since we've obviously talked to two unique sets of top players.

you mean you consulted yourself and talked about the changes to sepoys ?

[WickedCossack]

you mean you consulted yourself and talked about the changes to sepoys ?

Well did you advise GS?

Also cool to see that sepoy build you mentioned earlier isn't really affected much by this change since it's a slow roll karni play that later switches to brit consulate. Strange that your build isn't actually the one GS is nuking.

And no, no one has told me that the specific problem with sepoys is that they need to get 2 shotted by the TC to balance them as a unit.

[princeofkabul]

Xbows do need a buff in general. They tend to suck vs everything, not just musks but also other better RI. Chokus are great, they have x2 vs HI and 4.5 speed, also cheaper than xbows. Maces also cheaper with 30% rr, x2 vs HI and 4.5 speed. Aenna 5 speed, x2 vs HI and lot of ups. It's just xbows that really suck balls.

yeah so why not improve xbow rather than nerf sepoy

[Dsy]

I said older time full musk counter full xbow and thats kinda wierd. But some said (dont want names) xbows are good... lol
But even if you dont want completely change the meta and start with small changes 18 range would be essential. Then you could at least shoot back to gurkhas in age 2. And ofx kite vs all heavy inf would be better.

[tedere12]

A small xbow buff would be nice, maybe we would see more age2 plays and people would come up with ways to punish an ageup that don't t exist in the current meta